Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

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marcom
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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby marcom » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:02 pm)

hermod wrote:
I had already seen it. You're right to ask the exterminationists to provide the originals of their documentary 'proofs.' Should have been done a long time ago. Time to get them out of their comfort zone where no real evidence is ever required and provided...


Since you doubt the authenticity of these documents you indirectly acknowledge that, if their content was real, they would be very bad from the revisionist point of view. And I wonder why the eventual perpetrators of these falsifications didn't fabricate much more evidence.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:55 pm)

marcom wrote:Since you doubt the authenticity of these documents you indirectly acknowledge that, if their content was real, they would be very bad from the revisionist point of view. And I wonder why the eventual perpetrators of these falsifications didn't fabricate much more evidence.

But they did fabricate many, many more bogus 'documents'. I suggest you read my quote of Carlos Porter in this thread.
The are also numerous examples of fakes that have been debunked at this forum.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:03 pm)

marcom wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:This has nothing to do with the Holocaust, which is the alleged genocidal murder of six million Jewish people.


But to acknowledge that the special treatment of 100000 jews meant killing them wouldn't be a little thing.

No it wouldn't, if "special treatment meant killing, which it did not.
And a claimed 100,000 without a mass grave to view is damning to the claims about these faked 'letters'.
100,000 is 10,000 more than the Los Angeles Coliseum below holds:
Image
But no human remains, so cased closed.

But, as Kingfisher stated, allegedly killing Poles with tuberculosis is hardly the 'holocau$t'.

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Last edited by Hannover on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby hermod » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:04 pm)

marcom wrote:
hermod wrote:I had already seen it. You're right to ask the exterminationists to provide the originals of their documentary 'proofs.' Should have been done a long time ago. Time to get them out of their comfort zone where no real evidence is ever required and provided...


Since you doubt the authenticity of these documents you indirectly acknowledge that, if their content was real, they would be very bad from the revisionist point of view.


I acknowledge that these documents would be an instance of "special treatment = execution" if their content was real. But Carlo Mattogno wrote a book in which numerous instances of "special treatment = other things (often, delousing)" are gathered. Thus these documents would leave the revisionist case quite unharmed anyway if I'm asked.

marcom wrote:And I wonder why the eventual perpetrators of these falsifications didn't fabricate much more evidence.


Thanks for acknowledging that the exterminationist file is as thick as a sheet of cigarette paper. 8)
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:24 pm)

marcom wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:This has nothing to do with the Holocaust, which is the alleged genocidal murder of six million Jewish people.

But to acknowledge that the special treatment of 100000 jews meant killing them wouldn't be a little thing.

Please read the letter you quoted a little more carefully, Marcom. The opening sentence:
The special treatment (Sonderbehandlung) of about 100,000 Jews in the territory of my district, approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich- Main- Security- Office, SS- Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months.
refers to "special treatment" against 100,000 Jews already approved.

Greiser then goes on to ask authorisation for a different action relating to 230,000 Poles of whom 35,000 are infected with tuberculosis. This is clearly a different population from the 100,000 Jews subject to "special treatment" in a different context.
I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measures taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and efficient special commandos for that purpose.

There are about 230,000 people of Polish nationality in my district, who were diagnosed to suffer from TB. The number of persons infected with open Tuberculosis is estimated at about 35,000.

He is clearly referring to two separate actions concerning two separate populations.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby marcom » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:56 am)

He didn't specify that the action is different, how can the receiver understand the meaning? It's not reasonable

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Hannover » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:09 pm)

marcom:

It has been demonstrated that the documents in question are bogus, probably taken from real documents and then altered to make them seem horrific when the originals were not.
Regardless, there are no real, authentic, original documents to review, hence these fakes would simply be laughed out of a legit court of law.

Remember, at Nuremberg the Show Trial court stated:
The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence"

Then there's the coup de grace .... there is no physical evidence of what would have been an enormous crime, there are no human remains which would necessarily have been left behind.

You are clearly dodging these points.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:55 am)

marcom wrote:He didn't specify that the action is different, how can the receiver understand the meaning? It's not reasonable

He acknowledges permission already received for unspecified action against 100,000 Jews and goes on to ask for specific action against 35,000 Poles, part of a larger group of 235,000. Either you are not reading this properly or you are being deliberately obstreperous.

So the value of this document is clearly nil on two counts. Its authenticity cannot be demonstrated and if it were authentic it does not mean what you claim it means.

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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Moderator » 2 years 6 months ago (Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:08 pm)

marcom:
You have been challenged to present original, authentic German documents for the English text you post here. Please do so. The reasons for those challenges have been stated clearly.
In all fairness, one cannot claim there are German documents which confirm what English text states if the German documents do not exist.
Thank you.
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Re: Special treatment of tubercular poles and jews

Postby Lamprecht » 9 months 4 weeks ago (Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 pm)

I came across this document. This may be the original:

ImageImage

Code: Select all

 Der Reichsstatthalter im Reichsgau Wartheland                     Posen, den 1. Mai 1942

Geheime Reichssache!

Persönlich!

An Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, Führerhauptquartier.

Reichsführer!

Die von Ihnen im Einvernehmen mit dem Chef des Reichssicherheits-Hauptamtes, SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich, genehmigte Aktion der Sonderbehandlung von rund 100 000 Juden in meinem Gaugebiet wird in den nächsten 2—3 Monaten abgeschlossen werden können. Ich bitte Sie um die Genehmigung, mit dem vorhandenen und eingearbeiteten Sonderkommando im Anschluß an die Judenaktion den Gau von einer Gefahr befreien zu dürfen, die mit jeder Woche katastrophalere Formen annimmt.

Es befinden sich im Gau etwa 230 000 bisher erkannte Tbc-Kranke polnischer Volkszugehörigkeit. Von diesen wird die Zahl der mit offener Tuberkulose behafteten Polen auf etwa 35 000 geschätzt. Diese Tatsache hat in immer erschreckenderem Maße dazu geführt, daß Deutsche, welche vollkommen gesund in den Warthegau gekommen sind, sich angesteckt haben. Insbesondere wird die Ansteckungsgefahr bei deutschen Kindern mit immer größerer Wirkung gemeldet. Eine ganze Reihe führender Männer, insbesondere auch aus der Polizei, sind in der letzten Zeit angesteckt worden und fallen durch die notwendig gewordene Behandlung für den Kriegseinsatz aus. Die effektiv immer größer werdenden Gefahrenmomente sind auch von dem Stellvertreter des Reichsgesundheitsführers, Pg. Prof. Dr. Blome, sowie von dem Führer Ihres Röntgen-Sturmbanns, SS-Standartenführer Prof. Dr. Holfelder, erkannt und gewürdigt worden.

Wenngleich auch im Altreich mit entsprechend drakonischen Maßnahmen gegenüber dieser Volkspest nicht durchgegriffen werden kann, glaube ich es doch verantworten zu können, Ihnen vorzuschlagen, hier im Warthegau die Fälle der offenen Tbc. innerhalb des polnischen Volkstums ausmerzen zu lassen. Selbstverständlich dürfte nur derjenige Pole einer solchen Aktion überstellt werden, bei dem amtsärztlich nicht nur die offene Tbc., sondern auch deren Unheilbarkeit festgestellt und bescheinigt worden ist.

Bei der Dringlichkeit dieses Vorhabens bitte ich möglichst schnell um Ihre grundsätzliche Genehmigung, damit jetzt während der ablaufenden Aktion gegen die Juden bereits die Vorbereitungen zum anschließenden Anlaufen der Aktion gegenüber den offen mit Tbc behafteten Polen mit allen Vorsichtsmaßnahmen getroffen werden können.

Heil Hitler!
[Unterschrift]
Translated:
Reich Govenor of the Reichsgau Wartheland
Posen, 1 May 1942

Secret State Affair

Personal

To the Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, Führer-Headquarters.

Reichsführer!

The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.

There are about 230,000 people of Polish nationality in my district, who were diagnosed to suffer from TB. The number of persons infected with open tuberculosis is estimated at about 35,000. This fact has led in an increasing frightening measure to the infection of Germans, who came to the Warthegau perfectly healthy. In particular reports are received with our increasing effect of German children in danger of infection. A considerable number of well known leading men especially of the police, have been infected lately and are not available for the war effort because of the necessary medical treatment. The ever increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the deputy of the Reich Leader for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) Comrade Professor Dr. Blome as well as by the Leader of your X-rays battalion SS Standartenfuehrer Professor Dr. Hohlfelder.

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconian measures against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB eradicated [ausmerzen = weed out, uproot, eradicate] among the Polish people here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over for such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by a public health officer.

Considering the urgency of this project I ask for your approval in principle as soon as possible. This would enable us to take the preparations with all necessary precautions now to get the action against the Poles suffering from open tuberculosis under way, while the action against the Jews is in its closing stages.

Heil Hitler!
[signature]

This document was brought up in the Zundel trial. The following text is from this book:

'Did Six Million Really Die?' Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel – 1988
PDF: https://codoh.com/media/files/kula.pdf
TXT: https://archive.is/vljJw
... [Defence counsel Doug] Christie asked Hilberg to read the portion of his book The Destruction of the European Jews which described a gassing Hilberg had referred to earlier in his testimony. Hilberg read the following passage from page 642 of his book:

One year later, on May 1, 1942, Gauleiter Greiser of the incorporated Wartheland reported to Himmler that the "special treatment" of 100,000 Jews in his Gau would be completed in another two or three months. Greiser then proceeded in the same paragraph to request Himmler's permission for the use of the experienced (eingearbeiteten) Sonderkommando at Kulmhof in order to liberate the Gau from still another danger which threatened "with each passing week to assume catastrophic proportions." Greiser had in his province 35,000 tubercular Poles. He wanted to kill them.

Hilberg indicated that his footnote for this passage referred to Nuremberg document NO-246, a letter from Greiser to Himmler dated May 1, 1942. (5-1057)

Christie suggested there was nothing in this document about killing or gassing anyone.

"What it indicates is that at the moment, when Greiser wrote his letter, there was a Kommando... which is simply a detachment, working in Kulmhof, a killing centre, a death camp — ," said Hilberg.

Did he say that, asked Christie, or is that your word?

"I am trying," said Hilberg, "to describe the document. I am trying to differentiate between his interpretations and his words. Now, I am trying to explain what he meant. He had a Kommando at that very moment killing Jews, and he had — while he had the gas masks, he had another problem on his hands — not only Jews, but 35,000 tubercular Poles who might infect the German resident population. At this point, because of the fortuitous point of having the killing centre at hand, he asked for permission to kill these 35,000 Poles."

With the greatest respect, said Christie, I don't see any reference to the killing of 35,000 Poles or the killing of anyone from the document itself. Would you agree?

"Well, of course, this particular item appears at a late stage of the book in the context of a description of everything that transpired there, and all I could say to you is that one cannot, in such a book, repeat the basics on every page," said Hilberg. (5-1058)

If you could quote the document at all to say where this was an order to kill anyone, or a suggestion that there was an intention to kill anyone, why not do it?, asked Christie.

"I am not speaking of orders. I am saying that Greiser makes reference to a Kommando, an experienced group of people. Now, at the moment of his writing this letter they are working in Kulmhof, and while they were still there, because they weren't going to be there forever — there wasn't an inexhaustible supply of Jews in this town — he wanted Himmler's permission to also subject to the same treatment, meaning of course gassing, 35,000 tubercular Poles. This was not a hospital."

I gather you are giving us your interpretation of the document?, asked Christie.

"Yes. And it's my further statement to you, sir, that Kulmhof, a little village, does not have a major hospital accommodating 35,000 patients," said Hilberg.

Where in the document, asked Christie, did it say anything at all about taking 35,000 tubercular Poles to Kulmhof?

Hilberg asked to see the document again.

"He was making reference to his 'experienced Sonderkommando in Kulmhof in order to liberate the Gau from still another danger', and that danger was that of infection by 35,000 tubercular Poles. He wanted this danger to be eliminated," said Hilberg. (5-1059)

Christie asked Hilberg to state exactly what the document itself said.

"The document said he was completing the 'special treatment', in German sonderbehandlung, of 100,000 Jews," said Hilberg. "He expected that this particular operation would be completed two or three months from the moment of his writing the letter... In the same paragraph, he suggests that while this Kommando was there, his experienced Kommando, the 35,000 tubercular Poles should also be conveyed there.... that's my summary from memory of the verbatim text." (5-1060)

Hilberg agreed that he interpreted the phrase sonderbehandlung (special treatment) to mean "killing."

"It was used in German correspondence as a synonym for killing, not only for Jews, but also for certain other categories of persons who, in the context, within the meaning of the communications that were sent, were intended to be killed. It was a euphemism," said Hilberg.

Was the word sonderbehandlung always to be defined as "killing"?, asked Christie.

"No, of course not. One could go to a hospital and get special treatment. One could go to a hotel and get special treatment. It is a word," said Hilberg. He continued, "All meanings are from the context, of course... the words 'special treatment' recur and recur in documentation. I have already made reference to the use of it by Korherr in his report, and the fact of the matter is that Himmler thought it was used too much. It had lost its utility as a euphemism and he didn't want it used anymore."

Christie produced the transcript of the Nuremberg trial for April 12, 1945 where Kaltenbrunner, one of the accused, was asked the meaning of sonderbehandlung. Christie suggested to Hilberg that Kaltenbrunner gave an answer which did not agree with Hilberg's.

"I am quite sure he didn't," said Hilberg. (5-1061, 1062)

The answer Kaltenbrunner gave, suggested Christie, didn't indicate sonderbehandlung had anything to do with killing.
So the statement "Special treatment" (sonderbehandlung) is not even in reference to the Poles. Hilberg claims it means "extermination" when referring to Jews, but admits "special treatment" does not always mean to kill. In the letter it seems Greiser is only asking for permission to euthanize the Poles with "incurable" Tuberculosis.

Tuberculosis used to be very deadliy, it was the third most common cause of death in the USA in the early 1900s. The "BCG" (Bacille Calmette-Guérin) vaccine was first introduced in 1921 but it didn't have widespread use until after WWII. So having tens of thousands of individuals with a deadly disease was a risk to people who were not infected.

I don't see what is so nefarious about this document? People with incurable deadly diseases used to be euthanized in the past, especially during wartime. Anyway, the plan was never carried out: https://archive.is/ohSMP#selection-144.0-144.1

Also:
"Probably the most serious accusation against Dr. Blome seemed to be the allegation that he had proposed the murder of 25,000-30,000 tubercular Poles and had taken part in carrying out this plan. The evidence clearly shows, however, that this accusation is quite unfounded. I maintain on the contrary (a) it is not true that Dr. Blome approved or supported this murderous plan, and (b) it is also untrue that this plan was ever carried out...The extermination of the [tubercular] Poles did not take place... the tubercular Poles were provided for according to the same legal regulations which applied to tubercular Germans in Germany proper."

- Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10, Nuernberg, October 1946-April 1949 – Germany (Territory under Allied occupation, 1945-1955: U.S. Zone). Military Tribunals. http://archive.fo/HmUpc or http://web.archive.org/web/202006212113 ... e.it/2o6xv


Plus, the "Special treatment" in regards to the Jews was likely just an extension of the order Himmler sent to Greiser on 18 September 1941, regarding the expulsion of Jews of the Reich proper and Protectorate via the Łódź/Litzmannstadt ghetto [in Poland] during the next year:
Dear Party Comrade Greiser!

The Fuhrer wishes that as soon as possible the Old Kingdom and the Protectorate be emptied and liberated from West to East by Jews. Therefore, as far as possible this year, I am anxious to transport the Jews of the Old Reich and the Protectorate as a first step into the eastern territories that came to the Reich two years ago and to deport them further east to the East next spring.

I intend to spend about 60,000 Jews of the Old Reich and the Protectorate for the winter in the Litzmannstadt ghetto, which, as I have heard, is receptive to space. I ask you not only to understand this measure, which certainly brings difficulties and burdens for your Gau, but to support it in the interests of the whole empire.

SS Gruppenführer Heydrich, who has to carry out this emigration of Jews, will contact you in good time, directly or through SS Gruppenführer Koppe.

Hail Hitler!
German text: https://paste2.org/8Ev80f84
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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