Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

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Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:28 pm)

From "that other site:"

Roberto:

...

#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

...


Roberto:

"Zero" ...and here is why:

a) Mass graves at Belzec and Treblinka were partially excavated after the war, and crime site investigation reports described cremation remains and other remains on site corresponding to a very large number of dead human beings, but such reports don't fulfill the "conclusively documented methodology" requirement.

b) Archaeological surveys that identified mass graves at Belzec, Sobibór and Chelmno (and also at T-II, provided that a report about a partial archaeological survey there at least as comprehensive as those existing for Belzec, Sobibór and Chelmno is published or at least made available to the scholarly community) can be reasonably assumed to fulfill the "conclusively documented methodology" requirement, but in none of these surveys were human corpses pertaining to mass extermination unearthed from mass graves, nor were human remains unearthed from mass graves (by core drilling, where that was done) quantified so as to establish what number of human beings they correspond to. So one or both of the requirements "conclusively documented methodology" or "literally unearthed the remains" will always be missing. And that's not going to change as long as influential Orthodox Jews can bar any form of invasive archaeology on religious grounds, as they did after getting upset about the "desecration" of the dead by core drilling into human remains at Belzec.


(Notice - in blue - how poor cornered and cowed Roberto is trying to structure his response with weasel-words so as to avoid answering the questions honestly. Uhmmm Roberto, do you really think nobody noticed your desperately lame attempt at obfuscaton - Yes. - or - No. - ??)


Well then Roberto, if your answers to both of the above questions are - ZERO - because kola's and Haimi's work "can [only] be reasonably assumed to fulfill the 'conclusively documented methodology' requirement" and "one or both of the requirements 'conclusively documented methodology' or 'literally unearthed the remains' will always be missing, then it begs the following questions:

Roberto, you have admitted that there are 16 graves identified in this map here:

Image

and are numbered by The N.A.F.H. as follows:

1 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #1 / 49

2 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50

"Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51

3/4 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #4 / 52

5 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #5 / 53

6 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #6 / 54

7 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #7 / 55

8 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #8 / 56

9 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #9 / 57

10 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #10 / 58

11 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #11 / 59

12 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #12 / 60

13 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #13 / 61

14 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #14 / 62

15 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #15 / 63

16 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #16 / 64


So Roberto,

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains the remains of at least 19 people - Yes. - or - No. - ??


To help you with the answers Roberto, I'll include some information that you posted on your HC site:

It should be added that thoroughly documenting the contents of the mass graves is probably easier, in terms of archaeological work, than identifying the remains of the gas chamber building or other structures or objects in the camp. For in the former respect archaeologists can take advantage of the work done in 2001 by Prof. Andrzej Kola. In an article recently brought to my knowledge, written in 2001 for a bulletin of the Rada ochrony pamieci walk i meczenstwa ("Council for Protection of the Memory of Fighting and Martyrdom", a semi-official Polish entity that is in charge of memorials), Prof. Kola described the location and essential features of the mass graves, and also plotted them on two maps attached to the article. These are the maps:

...

And this is an English translation of the text describing the mass graves, which I recently obtained from a Polish lady living in Portugal:

Grave no 1 is located in the north - eastern part of hectare 17, just west from the memorial to victims. The site was excavated by 27 drills. Horizontally, it measures 20 x 20 m and is up to 4.30 m deep. It was a body burning grave.


Which begs a follow-up queston:

Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?



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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:25 pm)

RM:

So one or both of the requirements "conclusively documented methodology" or "literally unearthed the remains" will always be missing.


Roberto, this photo shows the largest "huge mass grave" - ever - located / proven to exist at Sobibor (in terms of both grave volume and quantity of remains):

Image

If the excavation of this so-called "huge mass grave" has not been conclusively documented, then what else would have had to have been done to have made it so?

And, if the 7 corpses in these two so-called "huge mass graves" have not been literally unearthed, then what else would have had to have been done to make it so?

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:12 am)

Roberto:
I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


I'll take that bet Roberto!

And we'll determine who wins the bet right here in this thread.

And since you have already admitted that there are 16 graves identified in this Sobibor map here:

Image


and are numbered by The N.A.F.H. as follows:


1 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #1 / 49

2 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50

"Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51

3/4 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #4 / 52

5 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #5 / 53

6 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #6 / 54

7 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #7 / 55

8 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #8 / 56

9 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #9 / 57

10 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #10 / 58

11 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #11 / 59

12 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #12 / 60

13 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #13 / 61

14 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #14 / 62

15 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #15 / 63

16 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #16 / 64


We will use said map and numbering system as our foundation.


So Roberto,

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains the remains of at least 19 people - Yes. - or - No. - ??


To help you with the answers Roberto, I'll include some information that you posted on your HC site:

It should be added that thoroughly documenting the contents of the mass graves is probably easier, in terms of archaeological work, than identifying the remains of the gas chamber building or other structures or objects in the camp. For in the former respect archaeologists can take advantage of the work done in 2001 by Prof. Andrzej Kola. In an article recently brought to my knowledge, written in 2001 for a bulletin of the Rada ochrony pamieci walk i meczenstwa ("Council for Protection of the Memory of Fighting and Martyrdom", a semi-official Polish entity that is in charge of memorials), Prof. Kola described the location and

essential features of the mass graves

Grave no 1 is located in the north - eastern part of hectare 17, just west from the memorial to victims. The site was excavated by 27 drills. Horizontally, it measures 20 x 20 m and is up to 4.30 m deep. It was a body burning grave.


Which begs a follow-up queston:

Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

3 simple answers to three simple questions Roberto, then we can proceed to Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50.

Unless you get cold feet and cravenly refuse to accept the fact that I've called your bluff.

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:06 pm)

Roberto:

I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie in no less than 12 graves [at Sobibor]


Then what are you waiting for Roberto?

Let's find out which 4 of the 16 "huge mass graves" of Sobibor that you can't prove contain human remains and how much of those 25,343 people are in each of the 12 other "huge mass graves."

BTW - 25,343 - divided by 12 = 2,111.91667

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby roberto » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:03 pm)

CWhite wrote:Roberto:
I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


I'll take that bet Roberto!


No, you are not taking that bet. You are trying to limit the proof to physical evidence. Instead of accepting my bet as proposed, you are thus trying to change its contents, therefore running away from it. Details see below.

CWhite wrote:And we'll determine who wins the bet right here in this thread.


We can do that provided that I'm allowed to post here, but we will do it according to the stated terms of the bet, and not according to what you are trying to change it into.

CWhite wrote:And since you have already admitted that there are 16 graves identified in this Sobibor map here:

Image

and are numbered by The N.A.F.H. as follows:

1 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #1 / 49

2 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50

"Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51

3/4 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #4 / 52

5 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #5 / 53

6 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #6 / 54

7 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #7 / 55

8 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #8 / 56

9 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #9 / 57

10 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #10 / 58

11 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #11 / 59

12 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #12 / 60

13 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #13 / 61

14 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #14 / 62

15 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #15 / 63

16 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #16 / 64


I have "admitted" nothing. I have noted that there are 16 graves in the list, but three (nos. 9, 10 and 11) are very small and therefore shouldn't be called "huge mass graves" but merely "graves" (as I have repeatedly pointed out), and another four, also very small graves (12, 13, 14 and 16) shouldn't be in the list at all, because they probably contain corpses not related to Sobibór extermination camp (as I have also repeatedly pointed out). Moreover, while the "Memory Hill" covers parts of graves nr. 3 and nr. 5 and a small part of grave nr. 1, the "Memory Hill" itself is not considered a grave by archaeologists, so stating that the "Memory Hill" is a grave is also a falsehood (again, as I have also repeatedly pointed out). Until these falsehoods have been removed, the above list will be a hoax within the NAFH hoax.

CWhite wrote:We will use said map and numbering system as our foundation.


No, we will do no such thing. I didn't say that I can provide the required proof on the basis of physical evidence alone. I said I can provide proof according to the standard of proof applied by US courts. That proof can be provided on hand of all evidence that would be accepted by US courts. This includes eyewitness and documentary evidence. It may also (but need not) include assessments of physical evidence by forensic experts and/or archaeologists. You are demanding that proof be provided on hand of physical evidence alone, which is not what a US court would demand. This means that, instead of accepting the bet as I proposed it, you are running away from it.

As you well know, I stated very precisely what the proof I intend to provide would consist of. It would consist of the following:

1. Providing known evidence of all categories (eyewitness, documentary and physical), which I submit proves that
a certain minimum number of people were
a) deported to,
b) murdered at, and
c) buried and/or cremated at
each of the camps in question.

2. Providing known evidence for the existing possibilities as concerns what happened to the cremation remains, which are the following:
a) They were reburied in emptied mass graves and remained there;
b) They were scattered across nearby fields, woods or roads, or dropped into nearby waters where such was possible and expedient;
c) They were taken out of the camp for some sort of use, e.g. as fertilizer;
d) They (namely the lighter parts, i.e. those most resembling "ashes" in a literal sense, as opposed to bone fragments and whole bones) were blown away from the camp area over the decades by the wind after having been brought to the surface by robbery diggers, where partial excavations were conducted also by such excavations.

3. Assigning equal probability to each of the four possibilities mentioned under items 2 a), b), c) and d) (which is conservative as the evidence suggests that most remains fall under a), i.e. were reburied in emptied mass graves and remained there).

4. Calculating that, pursuant to the assignment of probabilities in mentioned in item 3 above, a quarter of the minimum number of people who were killed at each of the camps in question is the minimum number of people whose remains are currently lying in the soil within the boundaries of each of the former camps.

5. Demonstrating, on hand of the US Federal Rules of Evidence and/or known US judicial precedents, preferably such concerning mass crimes, that a US court would, on the basis of the evidence mentioned under items 1 and 2 above and the assignment of probabilities and resulting calculations mentioned under items 3 and 4 above, accept that my numbers are the minimum numbers of murdered persons whose remains can be considered as proven beyond reasonable doubt to currently lie in the soil within the boundaries of each of the former camps.

CWhite wrote:So Roberto,

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains the remains of at least 19 people - Yes. - or - No. - ??


No, I cannot provide the required proof "based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site". Nor did I say I could, nor is that what a US court would demand. A US court, like any legitimate court in any democratic country, would look at all evidence of all categories that is available, instead of limiting its inquiry to one category of evidence (physical evidence) alone. So again, by demanding that proof be provided "based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site", you're not accepting my bet. You are running away from it, straight to the good old "NAFH" hoax.

CWhite wrote:To help you with the answers Roberto, I'll include some information that you posted on your HC site:

It should be added that thoroughly documenting the contents of the mass graves is probably easier, in terms of archaeological work, than identifying the remains of the gas chamber building or other structures or objects in the camp. For in the former respect archaeologists can take advantage of the work done in 2001 by Prof. Andrzej Kola. In an article recently brought to my knowledge, written in 2001 for a bulletin of the Rada ochrony pamieci walk i meczenstwa ("Council for Protection of the Memory of Fighting and Martyrdom", a semi-official Polish entity that is in charge of memorials), Prof. Kola described the location and

essential features of the mass graves

Grave no 1 is located in the north - eastern part of hectare 17, just west from the memorial to victims. The site was excavated by 27 drills. Horizontally, it measures 20 x 20 m and is up to 4.30 m deep. It was a body burning grave.


Yep, I said that further examination of the physical evidence, especially excavating the known mass graves, is a) technically possible and b) desirable. But nowhere did I say that it's a sine qua non condition for considering the facts of mass extermination at the camp(s) in question (I was referring specifically to Sobibór) to have been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

CWhite wrote:Which begs a follow-up queston:

Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?


None, as I have no idea to what extent Prof. Kola was on site and inspected the soil probes himself instead of relying on information about such probes provided to him by subordinated archaeologists.

CWhite wrote:3 simple answers to three simple questions Roberto, then we can proceed to Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50.


Your questions have no relevance whatsoever as concerns the terms of my bet proposal, they are just a lame attempt to convert that proposal into another of your NAFH hoaxes. So the only thing we will proceed to doing is either of the following:

a) you accepting my bet proposal in the terms in which it was stated, instead of trying to convert it into something it is not,

or

b) you stating that you don't accept my bet proposal because you are certain or at least consider it probable that you would lose the bet.

CWhite wrote:Unless you get cold feet and cravenly refuse to accept the fact that I've called your bluff.


The size and color of your claim don't change the fact that it is as false as can be and that you are the one who got cold feet here and whose bluff has been exposed. Like so often before.

My bet proposal is stated as follows:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


So, as you profess to like simple answers to simple questions, I'll ask you a simple question:

Do you accept my bet proposal as stated (and not as you have tried to distort it by restricting the evidence I can present in support of my case)?

Yes or No ?

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby roberto » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:17 pm)

CWhite wrote:Roberto:

I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie in no less than 12 graves [at Sobibor]


Then what are you waiting for Roberto?


I'm waiting for you to accept my bet as stated. You haven't done that yet.

CWhite wrote:Let's find out which 4 of the 16 "huge mass graves" of Sobibor that you can't prove contain human remains and how much of those 25,343 people are in each of the 12 other "huge mass graves."

BTW - 25,343 - divided by 12 = 2,111.91667


Distributing by graves the minimum number of murdered people whose remains can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to lie in all known Sobibór graves together is currently impossible, and thus not part of my bet undertaking. I undertake to do something that can be done with the means at my disposal.

By the way, that's the second alternative (excluding Treblinka because the number of graves there is not yet known). If you prefer that over the first alternative (including Treblinka but without numbers of graves), that's fine with me.

So again, here's a simple question:

Do you accept my bet proposal as stated (and not as you have tried to distort it by restricting the evidence I can present in support of my case)?

Yes or No ?

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:59 pm)

Roberto:

No, you are not taking that bet.


Too late Roberto. You can't take it back now.

Bet has already been made and accepted:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.

I'll take that bet Roberto!



I knew you would get cold feet!


:lol:
Last edited by CWhite on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:01 pm)

CWhite:

And we'll determine who wins the bet right here in this thread.


Roberto:

We can do that provided that I'm allowed to post here,


And you know you are!

So let's get going Roberto:

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11276&p=84813#p84801

There are three questions on your plate that you have dodged already.

Roberto:

I have noted that there are 16 graves in the list


Right, and I have noted that you have noted.

So let's get going Roberto.

What are you waiting for?

What are you so afraid of?

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:07 pm)

Roberto:

stating that the "Memory Hill" is a grave is also a falsehood


You mean like you did here:

Greg Gerdes wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:16 pm

Roberto, do you deny ever making this statement:

Roberto Muehlenkamp, VNN post #916:

“…The conclusion that the mound in question is comprised of human ash is thus the conclusion that is borne out by all known evidence and belied by none. It is also the conclusion towards which various sources of evidence independent of each other converge. This convergence of various sources of evidence… is proof that the mound in question is comprised of human ash…”
Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

No.


No matter Roberto, all you will have to do is answer - No. - when we get to the point where I ask you this question:

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave "Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") / #3 / 51 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:15 pm)

Roberto:

I have "admitted" nothing... I didn't say that I can provide the required proof on the basis of physical evidence alone.


Well Roberto, that admission cannot be called "nothing."

In fact, that is a very interesting admission.

Roberto:

I said I can provide proof according to the standard of proof applied by US courts


Right, and we're waiting for your answers to these questions:

So Roberto,

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains the remains of at least 19 people - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

It may also (but need not) include assessments of physical evidence by forensic experts and/or archaeologists.


Right, that's why I including this information:

Prof. Kola described the location and essential features of the mass graves... And this is an English translation of the text describing the mass graves, which I recently obtained from a Polish lady living in Portugal:

Grave no 1 is located in the north - eastern part of hectare 17, just west from the memorial to victims. The site was excavated by 27 drills. Horizontally, it measures 20 x 20 m and is up to 4.30 m deep. It was a body burning grave.


And asked you this follow up question:

Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:24 pm)

Roberto:

You are demanding that proof be provided on hand of physical evidence alone.


Not true Roberto.

You proffered this bet:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


and I accepted it.

Now I'm trying to see if you can cash the check your big mouth wrote by asking you this very simple question:

Roberto, can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nowhere did I say that is all you can present.

But, just as I predicted, you got cold feet and are now trying to back out.

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:31 pm)

So Roberto,

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #1 / #1-49 currently contains the remains of at least 19 people - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

No,


I'll take that as a - No. - Roberto. But please, from now on, answer all - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - questions with either a - Yes. - or - No. - nothing more - nothing less. (Do you know the difference between a period and a comma Roberto - Yes. - or - No. - ??)


Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains? And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

Roberto:

CWhite wrote:
Which begs a follow-up queston:

Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

None, as I have no idea to what extent Prof. Kola was on site and inspected the soil probes himself instead of relying on information about such probes provided to him by subordinated archaeologists.


Then I'll rephrase the question:

Roberto, in how many of the 27 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola, or any other archaeologist or forensic / "crime scene" Investigator, literally unearth and see with his / their own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?
Last edited by CWhite on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:35 pm)

Moving on:

Roberto,

Can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #2 / #2-50 currently contains human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; can you, based solely on the archaeological / forensic / geophysical work done at the site, (which includes, but is not limited to - any and all full excavations, partial excavations and core drillings) prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that Sobibor grave #2 / #2-50 currently contains the remains of at least 19 people - Yes. - or - No. - ??

To help you with the answers Roberto, I'll include some information that you posted on your HC site:

Grave no 2 is located in the western part of the hectare 17, south from the memorial. It was excavated by 28 drills. Horizontally its shape is irregular, measuring at least 20 x 25 m – with its longer side in NS position – and with depth up to 4 metres. It was a body burning grave.


Which begs a follow-up question:

Roberto, in how many of the 28 "drills" can you prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - did Kola literally unearth and see with his own eyes - scientifically verified human remains?

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby CWhite » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:47 pm)

Roberto:

Do you accept my bet proposal as stated (and not as you have tried to distort it by restricting the evidence I can present in support of my case)?

Yes or No ?


Again Roberto, I am not restricting anything. And I accepted a bet:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


Not a proposal.

You can present any and all information you want. I just want some unambiguous answers to some very simple questions. Nor am I trying to distort anything. So put another pair of pantyhose on if your feet are getting cold and answer the simple questions in the above post. We should be able to finish my questions in a day or to, if you don't chicken out and run away - AGAIN - like you're so wont to do.

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Re: Muehlenkamp cracks under pressure - admits Kola's & Haimi's Sobibor work not proven to be conclusively documented

Postby roberto » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:52 pm)

The claim that my bet proposal has been accepted, however often and however loudly CWhite repeats it in post after post meant to distort and obfuscate, is blatantly false, as demonstrated in my post under
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11276#p84808.

Trying to restrict the evidence I can present in support of my case to physical evidence is not accepting my bet proposal. It is trying to change that proposal’s contents and thus running away from it – the very thing that CWhite, projecting his obviously cold feet, falsely accuses me of doing.

So my question is still standing:

My bet proposal is stated as follows (Alternative 1):
I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


Or, if you prefer as follows (Alternative 2):
I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie in no less than 12 graves graves/disposal pits for cremation remains within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.


Do you accept my bet proposal as stated (and not as you have tried to distort it by restricting the evidence I can present in support of my case)?

Yes or No ?


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