Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

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Hannover
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Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:31 am)

CWhite has posted at this forum what Roberto Muehlenkamp has claimed elsewhere.
Roberto has said:
Mass graves at Belzec and Treblinka were partially excavated after the war, and crime site investigation reports described cremation remains and other remains on site corresponding to a very large number of dead human beings, but such reports don't fulfill the "conclusively documented methodology" requirement.

Well then, Roberto is hereby challenged to present the full original text of the actual 'reports' and the full original text to the 'investigations' supposedly mentioned in the alleged reports.

I say Roberto and his 'holocau$t' Industry are bluffing. I say there are no such documents to show. I say it's just another 'holocaust' fraud.

Consider what a big deal this would be for those who profit from the 'holocaust' storyline, IF Roberto's claims matched the facts

Will Roberto dodge yet another challenge? I'm betting yes.

He cannot produce what he and those like him allege, simple as that.

See other recent bluffs & dodges by Roberto here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11240

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby roberto » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:26 am)

I don't dodge challenges. I may not be able to respond to them immediately as concerns the Belzec set of documents (which I'll have to obtain from the archives mentioned below), but I do so as soon as possible. As concerns the Treblinka set of documents, I can respond immediately because I have color copies of original crime site investigation reports and related photographs (the photos are black and white, but the background is colored) at my disposal.

Now to the crime site investigation/excavation reports

Belzec

There is an excavation report dated 12.10.1945, signed by District Examining Judge Czeslaw Godziszewski and District Attorney Leon Witkowski. There is also a report on the postmortem examination dated 13.10.1945, signed by District Medical Officer (coroner) Dr. Mieczyslaw Pietraszkiewicz and District Examining Judge Cz. Godziszewski, followed by an expert opinion from the aforementioned Dr. Mieczyslaw Pietraszkiewicz.

Certified translations into German of these reports from Polish, based on certified copies of the original Polish texts, are available in the section of the German Federal Archives in Ludwigsburg (Bundesarchiv Ludwigsburg, BAL for short), respectively under the signatures BAL B162/208 AR-Z 252/59, Bd. VI, f. 1121-22 and BAL B162/208 AR-Z 252/59, Bd. VI, f. 1123-24. These translations can be viewed on the page https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?miadt=298&mizig=210&miview=inv2&milang=nl&micols=1&mires=0&micode=804&mizk_alle=Belzec of the Dutch Archives, file 8, respectively pp. 127-128 and 130-132 of the PDF file.

English translations of these documents from the aforementioned German translations (except for the District Medical Officer's expert opinion, which I translated somewhere else) can be found on pp. 79-81 of Carlo Mattogno, Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History. Thus the claim that these documents do not exist means calling into question the scholarship of Carlo Mattogno, who I understand is the world's foremost Revisionist researcher, as it implies that Mattogno relied on copies, transcriptions or translations of documents that don't exist in the original.

The aforementioned documents were part of the evidence used at the trial against Josef Oberhauser et al, before the Landgericht München (Munich Court of Assizes), the judgment of which was issued on 21.01.1965 and confirmed by the German Supreme Court (Bundesgerichtshof, BGH for short) on 14.12.1965. The judgment is published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XX. A summary of the judgment can be found on the webpage http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortengfr.htm, Case Nr. 585. The judgment's complete text can be obtained from Ex Post Facto Productions for a fee of 25 Euros (http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/bestellen.htm). I have the text of the judgment and the BGH's confirmation and can provide a translation upon request.

The certified copies of the original excavation/postmortem reports in Polish are probably in the BAL files. I shall inquire for them there. The originals must be in the archives of the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej (IPN for short) in Warsaw, Poland. I shall inquire for them there.

---

Treblinka

I have a copy of the file IPN GK 196/69, which contains color copies of the protocols pertaining to the investigation conducted by Judge Łukaszkiewicz and State Attorney Maciejewski. The site investigation reports, along with illustrating photographs, are on fl. 96-104 of the file. Color copies are provided below.

The first of the copied protocols (fl. 96-97) seems to contain (I don't speak Polish and therefore have to rely on machine translations) information about human remains on site that is also included in Nuremberg document USSR-344, translation see Carlo Mattogno, Treblinka - Extermination Camp or Transit Camp, p. 87, and in the report about the Treblinka extermination camp published by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, Warsaw, 1946 (https://www.phdn.org/archives/www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm).

The second protocol after the photographs (fl. 103-104) is obviously the one whose translation can be found in Mattogno, Treblinka, pp. 84-86. Mattogno obviously didn't have access to the documents archived the IPN, for his source is a reproduction of the document in Stanisław Wojtczak, “Karny obóz pracy Treblinka I i osrodek zagłady Treblinka II,” in: Biuletyn Głównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce, Warsaw 1975, XXVI, pp. 117-185 (here pp. 183-85 (Mattogno, Treblinka, note 61 on p. 32 and note 207 on p. 84. Again, the claim that these documents do not exist means calling into question the scholarship of Carlo Mattogno, who I understand is the world's foremost Revisionist researcher, as it implies that Mattogno relied on copies, transcriptions or translations of documents that don't exist in the original.

So here are the aforementioned documents (in Polish language, of course) as they are kept in the file IPN GK 196/69.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby CWhite » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:06 am)

You might be interested in this Hannover (the following was posted by Roberto on another site):

Roberto:

The number of people buried in the extermination sector that I calculated considering the above, assuming that the 713,555 mentioned by Höfle do not include about 8,000 deportees from Theresienstadt in 1942, and making some allowance for the remote possibility, claimed by Mattogno, that arrivals in early 1943 were buried instead of being directly cremated, is 726,441.

CWhite:

Robeto, is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp to substantiate just 1 / 1000 of 1 % your allegations - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer: ??


Roberto:

Yes, I'm sure there is, and a lot more than that (commensurate with hundreds of thousands of cremated corpses). It just hasn't yet been excavated. Hopefully it will be excavated some day.


So again.

Roberto: "Mass graves at Treblinka were partially excavated after the war."

Roberto: "It [Treblinka II] just hasn't yet been excavated."

Is there a bigger liar on earth than Roberto?

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby CWhite » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:18 am)

You might also be interested in this Hannover:

Hannover:

And those alleged mass graves are claimed to be in existence today, but Roberto, nor anyone else can actually show us any excavations and the alleged massive remains of an alleged 700,000 - 900,000 Jews. The Los Angeles Coliseum holds a mere 90,000 people, yet Roberto cannot show us the claimed 700,000, - 900,000 remains of Jews that are said to be still buried at Treblinka.


Roberto:

No, I cannot.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby CWhite » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:21 am)

And this as well:

Roberto:

Mass graves at Belzec and Treblinka were partially excavated after the war


Greg Gerdes

Roberto, are you willing to bet - $1,000.00 - that it can be proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that; mass graves at Belzec and Treblinka II were partially excavated after the war - Yes. - or - No. - ??



Roberto has yet to muster the courage to answer the simple question.

Gee, I wonder why? is it for the same reason that he did the same here:

Roberto:

A number of graves or partial graves have been identified by CS-C


Greg Gerdes:

Roberto, are you willing to bet - $1,000.00 - that it can be proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that; A number of graves or partial graves have been identified by CS-C - Yes. - or - No. - ??


So Roberto is not willing to put his money where his mouth is - who would've thunk it?

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby borjastick » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:50 am)

It would appear that roberto believes the bodies and or their remains are there in sufficient numbers to substantiate the claims. However this is based on, as far as I can see, a few dodgy pictures shown above that show literally a few broken bones and skulls, and stuff was covered at Nuremberg and as such taken as gospel and 'proved' that there was mass murder at various sites.

That the remains have never been shown to be in place doesn't bother people, so it seems.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:22 am)

Trap set, bait taken, Roberto caught.

Seriously Roberto, this is your best shot?

These communist 'photos' are a joke.

- Zero proof they are from Treblinka.

- A few laughable bones brought from who knows where, thrown on the ground, photographed & voila ... communist 'evidence'.

- Allegedly 900,000 were murdered at Treblinka and what do we see? .... a few communist, laughably placed bones. :lol:


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- Hannover

"Some stories are true that never happened."
- Elie Wiesel
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby CWhite » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:31 pm)

Hannover:

These communist 'photos' are a joke - Zero proof they are from Treblinka.


A suggestion Hannover. I'm sure that it can be difficult at times, but it's vitally important to always distinguish between Treblinka I and Treblinka II.

I see Roberto constantly trying to obfuscate this issue by not doing so - so he can say later that when he said Treblinka, he meant Treblinka I or the Treblinka gravel pit. Some of those photos MAY have actually been taken at "Treblinka" - i.e. - Treblinka I or in the gravel pits near the camps, but not Treblinka II.

Whenever given the chance, the cornered, cowed, confused and craven Muehlenkamp will always just use "Treblinka." But by using the phrase: "Within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp" it takes away that wiggle room that the liar / obfuscator is always angling for.

So I'll take this opportunity to try something I've been seeing on another site:

Roberto, are you willing to bet - $1,000.00 - that it can be proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that; any of those photos were taken / show scenes from - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; Which ones?
Last edited by CWhite on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby CWhite » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:00 pm)

What an apropos thread this is, coming on the heals of these admissions that were recently forced out of poor Roberto:

#27 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes.

#43 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Roberto's single numeric answer: Zero.
 
#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto's single numeric answer: Zero.

#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Roberto's single numeric answer: Zero.
 
#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto's single numeric answer: Zero.

Of course the above answers are in contradiction to his earlier allegations that he could not only prove that 10 of the alleged Belzec graves contain human remains, but:

Roberto:

The graves I can prove that contain the remains of over 19 people are the ten Belzec graves and 4 Sobibór graves.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:31 pm)

Roberto said of Belzec:
The aforementioned documents were part of the evidence used at the trial against Josef Oberhauser et al, before the Landgericht München (Munich Court of Assizes), the judgment of which was issued on 21.01.1965 and confirmed by the German Supreme Court (Bundesgerichtshof, BGH for short) on 14.12.1965. The judgment is published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XX. A summary of the judgment can be found on the webpage http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortengfr.htm, Case Nr. 585. The judgment's complete text can be obtained from Ex Post Facto Productions for a fee of 25 Euros (http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/bestellen.htm). I have the text of the judgment and the BGH's confirmation and can provide a translation upon request.

Yet we will not see the verbatim text of these Show Trials. Only an empty claim of text to the "judgement". Why?
We cannot see the verbatim cross examination text, IF there was even a cross examination. Why?
And indeed, Show Trials in a country where scrutiny of the 'holocaust' storyline is now banned.

And BTW, Roberto's links do not even take us to the alleged "judgement text". All we see is a minute description of the Show Trial, no text about the proceedings, no verbatim trial text, no verbatim cross examination text.
IOW, they are hiding incriminating information from the public, the postwar "trials" were a sham and they want to hide that fact.
Recall that all of Nuremberg had to accepted at those trials.
ex.: Such madness as 'vacuum chambers', 'Nazi atomic weapons', etc., etc. were accepted at Nuremberg and were accepted at these Orwellian post war trials.

Also recall that “eyewitnesses” who Roberto puts his faith in claimed that Jews were murdered en masse in “electrocution chambers” at Belzec. :lol:

Then we see in Roberto's link which cites the usual liar, Yankel Wiernik, :lol:
see Wiernik shot down here:
''Holocaust Industy's' Roberto Muehlenkamp cites Yankel Wiernik as proof of extermination of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka !! '
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11271

See Roberto's cited Josef Oberhauser and his hilarious link to liar Rudolf Reder debunked here:
'Christopher Browning and the "Nazi Gas Chambers" of Belzec'
By Paul Grubach
http://codoh.com/library/document/962/?lang=en
The contradictions in what they stated vs. what others have claimed are damning.

Search the CODOH main site for tons more on Reder, Belsec, Treblinka, Wiernik, etc., all of whom Roberto truly believes in.
http://www.codoh.com

recommended:
'West German Justice and So-Called National Socialist Violent Crimes'
http://codoh.com/library/document/1993/?lang=en

And we still see no human remains that are alleged to still exist at Belzec & Treblinka. Same for the other alleged sites.
Think about it, 1,300,000 allegedly murdered at those two sites and no human remains as alleged can be shown. :lol:
Well, Roberto did post some pictures of the communists staging a few bones, see above.

More to come.

- Hannover

"eyewinesses" claimed that Jews were murdered en masse in “electrocution chambers” at Belzec.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Roberto Muehlenkamp challenged on his claim of 'crime site investigations' for Belzec & Treblinka

Postby CWhite » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:23 pm)

Hannover:
And we still see no human remains that are alleged to still exist at Belzec & Treblinka. Same for the other alleged sites.
Think about it, 1,300,000 allegedly murdered at those two sites and no human remains as alleged can be shown. :lol:


Well Hannover, the reason why the alleged human remains can't be shown has just been admitted to by poor Roberto on another site:

Roberto:

All known evidence points to mass extermination [at at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II], and b) no evidence whatsoever points to a transit via these camps to the "Russian East.


CWhite:

Does that include all known physical evidence Roberto - Yes. - or - No. - ??


Of course it includes all known physical evidence, but physical evidence is not the only relevant evidence, and rare is the mass crime whose facts have been established on hand of physical evidence alone (while on the other hands the facts of mass crimes have been established beyond a reasonable doubt by criminal justice authorities and/or historians even without access to the physical evidence).


CWhite:

If your answer is - Yes. - then;

Is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Belzec camp to substantiate your allegations of mass extermination - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

And Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer is: ??


Roberto:

If "substantiate" is supposed to mean "support the conclusion, together with other evidence, that there was mass extermination at Belzec", the answer is "yes",

If "substantiate" is supposed to mean "support the conclusion, all by itself and independently of any other evidence, that there was mass extermination at Belzec", then the answer is - "no".


CWhite wrote:

Is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp to substantiate your allegations of mass extermination - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

And Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer is: ??


Roberto:

Same as for Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibór.


Note: Roberto's answers were the same for Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Trebliknka II, which means that Roberto admits that this unsubstantiated allegation of his:

The challenge pertains specifically to - 1,394,734 - jews (no more - and no less) that I can prove actually set foot in Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka II, and that I can prove were killed and buried in the camps to which they were deported. The number of jews that I can prove - beyond a reasonable doubt - (Note: I define the term "beyond a reasonable doubt" here as meaning; the evidence that I will provide will convince any reasonable person that said evidence has established my claims to a degree of certainty that will be beyond dispute, and that any person who does dispute my clams after seeing my evidence - is not a reasonable person.) - AND - with the same expressed and implied standards of proof used by Michael Shermer, Skeptic Magazine and The Skeptics Society to determine what constitutes proof - to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below, is the following:


Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734


cannot be substantiated by the physical evidence alleged to currently exist within the boundaries of the four camps.

Which begs the question: If Muehlenkamp himself admits that there isn't enough physical evidence in any of the four camps to substantiate his allegations, then; just how much physical evidence is there?


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