T4 euthanasia gassing?

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:26 am)

johng posts without specific comment, so I will.
Again, the article:
British Medical Journal 2003;327:832 (11 October)
Nazi's euthanasia files are made public
Heidelberg
Annette Tuffs
For the first time, files relating to the 200 000 euthanasia crimes of the Nazi regime from 1939 to 1944 are available online in a central databank. The German Federal Archive in Berlin has gathered information from almost 300 archives in Germany, Austria, Poland, and the former Czechoslovakia.
The research project was partly financed by the German Medical Association. Speaking at the press launch in Berlin, the association's honorary president, Karsten Vilmar, once more admitted the guilt of German medicine, which had taken an active part in the euthanasia.
In 1990 about 70 000 previously unknown documents dating from the Nazi era, which had been preserved in the central archives of the Ministry for State Security, were found. The secret service of the former German Democratic Republic had kept them for decades without following up the crimes.
The new databank also contains files from many other sources. Altogether, about 200 000 people were killed in gas chambers, with drugs, or through starvation because they were considered handicapped, socially unacceptable, or mentally ill and were therefore deemed worth killing, according to Nazi ideology. The databank, which is in German, can be accessed by relatives of victims of euthanasia and historians. However, the names of victims are not listed.
Rediscovered files have already led to the investigation, starting in 2000, of a former member of Jena University.
Eighty eight year old Rosemarie Albrecht, former director of the Ear Nose and Throat Hospital and former dean of the medical faculty in Jena, is accused of taking part in the killing of at least 159 women and 11 children when in 1940 she worked as a junior doctor in a psychiatric hospital in Stadtroda, Thuringia.
Legal investigations are proving difficult because of a lack of witnesses and because knowledge of the victims and their fate is scarce.
Rosemarie Albrecht rejects the accusations and claims that she was only looking after the small percentage of the patients in the psychiatric hospital who were considered treatable and that she did not know what happened to the majority of "untreatable" patients in the ward, who were looked after by nursing staff.
The central databank of the German Federal Archives is at
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/findbuecher/ ... infueh.php
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/ ... 7419/832-a

So, then:

- Euthanasia was not a "crime" in Germany, nor is it in many countries. In fact Hitler ordered it stopped when it became unpopular. A real 'Hitler order'. Ahem.

excerpt:
Altogether, about 200 000 people were killed in gas chambers, with drugs, or through starvation because they were considered handicapped, socially unacceptable, or mentally ill and were therefore deemed worth killing, according to Nazi ideology.

I see no evidence for the unfounded claims of 'gassings', 'starvation', 'socially unacceptable'. Johng cannot, has not presented any; nor can the author of the posted article. Saying so and presenting evidence are two different things altogether.

excerpt:
The new databank also contains files from many other sources.

And what 'sources' would those be?

excerpt:
Legal investigations are proving difficult because of a lack of witnesses and because knowledge of the victims and their fate is scarce.
Rosemarie Albrecht rejects the accusations and claims that she was only looking after the small percentage of the patients in the psychiatric hospital who were considered treatable and that she did not know what happened to the majority of "untreatable" patients in the ward, who were looked after by nursing staff.

So we have an accused nurse (accused of what?) who rejects the charges and this so called "databank" has nothing to prove the charges against her. How pathetic.

And ofcourse, one nurse would indeed care for only a small percentage .... note the attempt to make it appear as all the others not in her care somehow were killed.

"Untreatable"? Well, how many is never said, and it is indeed true that the German euthanasia program humanely killed the untreatable, so what? 'Untreatable' is the very point of euthanasia. Seems quite normal, like every other country which engages in such practices.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:07 pm)

Altogether, about 200 000 people were killed in gas chambers, with drugs, or through starvation because they were considered handicapped, socially unacceptable, or mentally ill and were therefore deemed worth killing, according to Nazi ideology.


Or you could rephrase that too: And were therefore put out of their misery, according to Nazi ideology.


However, the names of victims are not listed.


That’s a green light for complete exaggerations to me.

Rediscovered files have already led to the investigation


Not the recently “re-discovered” files, why did you lose them before?

For the first time, files relating to the 200 000 euthanasia crimes of the Nazi regime from 1939 to 1944 are available online in a central databank.


Over here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/euthanasia_ ... 21000.html
it is 300,000 !

You only have to be elderly, infirm and occupying a bed to qualify for euthanasia in the local hospitals around me.


Take a look at that handiwork in that beautiful old castle, typical industry bodge artist attempts at alterations, commonly seen in all the industries heavily tampered with edifices.

Can you not at least get someone in who knows what they are doing? The way the industry goes about these alterations, shows nothing but utter contempt for the dumb goy's intelligence.

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Postby Johng » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:51 am)

Hannover says he sees no evidence of the claims of gassings. The evidence is in the 70,000 plus files in the Federal Archive. The evidence is clearly enough for the German Medical Association. Unless of course they are all part of the conspiracy.

Hannover also says that Hitler stopped the euthanasia programme. It would seem that such a programme took place then. However, this is justified as ‘many other countries had such programmes’. What countries? No other country had a programme to kill babies with lethal injections, no other country had a programme to kill adults with lethal injections. The ‘wild’ euthanasia programme that continued after the halt order is well evidenced in the archive, Hannover only has to look rather than dismiss. It would seem that the Bishop of Limburg was very clear about the evidence of ‘gassings’

TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 615-PS
Source:Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume III. USGPO, Washington, 1946/pp.449-451
Petition of Bishop of Limburg to the Reich Minister of Justice
Concerning Killing of Patients at the State Hospital for the Mentally Ill at Hadamar
13 August 1941
The Bishop of Limburg Limburg/ Lahn, Aug 13, 1941
To the Reich Minister of Justice Berlin
[Various stamps and pencilled remarks appear on original]
Regarding the report submitted on July 16 (Sub IV, pp 6-7) by the Chairman of the Fulda Bishops' Conference, Cardinal Dr. Bertram, I consider it my duty to present the following as a concrete illustration of destruction of so-called "useless life."
About 8 kilometers from Limburg, in the little town of Hadamar, on a hill overlooking the town, there is an institution which had formerly served various purposes and of late had been used as a nursing home; this institution was renovated and furnished as a place in which, by consensus of opinion, the above mentioned euthanasia has been systematically practiced for months-approximately since February 1941. The fact has become known beyond the administrative district of Wiesbaden, because death certificates from a Registry Hadamar-Moenchberg are sent to the home communities. (Moenchberg is the name of this institution because it was a Franciscan monastery prior to its secularization in 1803.)
Several times a week buses arrive in Hadamar with a considerable number of such victims. School children of the vicinity know this vehicle and say:" There comes the murder-box again." After the arrival of the vehicle, the citizens of Hadamar watch the smoke rise out of the chimney and are tortured with the ever-present thought, of the miserable victims, especially when repulsive odors annoy them, depending on the direction of the wind. T
he effeet of the principles at work here are: Children call each other names and say," You're crazy ; you'll be sent to the baking oven in Hadamar." Those who do not want to marry, or find no opportunity, say," Marry, never! Bring children into the world so they can be put into the bottling machine!" You hear old folks say, "Don't send me to a. state hospital ! After the feeble-minded have been finished off, the next useless eaters whose turn will come are the old people."
All God-fearing men consider this destruction of helpless beings as crass injustice. And if anybody says that Germany cannot win the war, if there is yet a just God, these expressions are not the result of a lack of love of fatherland but of a deep concern for our people. The population cannot grasp that systematic actions are carried out which in accordance with Par. 211 of the German criminal code are punishable with death! High authority as a moral concept has suffered a severe shock as a result of these happenings. The official notice that N. N. had died of a contagious disease and that for that reason his body has to be burned, no longer finds credence, and such official notices which are no longer believed have further undermined the ethical value of the concept of authority.
Officials of the Secret State Police,. it is said, are trying to suppress discussion of the Hadamar occurrences by means of severe threats. In the interest of public peace, this may be well intended. But the knowledge and the conviction and the indignation of the population cannot be changed by it; the conviction will be increased with the bitter realization that discussion is prohibited with threats but that the actions themselves are not prosecuted under penal law.
Facta loquuntur.
I beg you most humbly, Herr Reich Minister, in the sense of the report of the Episcopate of July 16 of this year, to prevent further transgressions of the Fifth Commandment of God.
[Signed] Dr. Hilfrich
I am submitting copies of this letter to the Reich Minister of the Interior and the Reich Minister for Church Affairs. [initialled by the above]

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:52 am)

johng, you said:
The evidence is in the 70,000 plus files in the Federal Archive. The evidence is clearly enough for the German Medical Association.

Oh really? Is that why you cannot show us this 'evidence'. Wishful thinking does not make fact. I also see no evidence from the German Medical Association. Where is it? Claiming documentation without showing it just doesn't work here, we demand substantiation, I see you cannot present authentic documentation. Why?

Yes, there was a euthanasia program, so what? I consider alleviating suffering a progressive act. I don't know who also had such progressive programs at that time, I never said other countries did, I do think there were some however; but certainly plenty do now. Again, Germany ahead of the curve. Besides, your intent is to try and show euthanasia 'gassings' such that they somehow tie-in with the absurd, impossible, laughable 'gas chambers' for Jews. You cannot, have not shown any evidence, johng.

And well, yes, lethal injections were indeed the method. Just like today. Your attempt to infuse 'babies' changes nothing. If they were suffering from untreatable conditions, then their suffering was properly alleviated, that IS the point of euthanasia. We still see no evidence for gassings.

Then johng, you claim the program continued after Hitler ordered it stopped. That's bizarre. Imagine a program continued after Hitler's orders to stop it. Was there an occasional mercy killing for medical necessity? Probably, and rightly so.

You then present English text and no German original of a absurd tale from the claimed 'Bishop of Limburg'. Ofcourse, the Bishop never was actually in this institution that he claims, nor were the people he supposedly quotes, and perhaps he did not like euthanasia; but there's no evidence here, just silly tales a la human soap.
." After the arrival of the vehicle, the citizens of Hadamar watch the smoke rise out of the chimney and are tortured with the ever-present thought, of the miserable victims, especially when repulsive odors annoy them, depending on the direction of the wind.

Yawn, they had a crematory, so what. There are many in every big city. I see nothing to substantiate 'gassings'. How come you can't produce something?

So, there we go, johng, more tales but no evidence.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:39 pm)

While the Germans are attacked for what is today commonplace, here are just two examples of those promoting euthanasia elsewhere at that time:

1935 - World's first euthanasia society is founded in London, England.

1938 - The Euthanasia Society of America is founded by the Rev. Charles Potter in New York

- Hannover
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Postby Johng » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:59 am)

This is a fascinating line of argument. I have provided the link to the archive, and repeat it again,

http://www.bundesarchiv.de/findbuecher/ ... infueh.php

Without any evidence whatsoever Hannover dismisses, or seemingly dismisses the veracity of the material contained within it. If he wishes to do so then it is for him provide the evidence.

Similarly he uses a well-worn argument that Euthanasia was common in other countries. It's frequently been pointed out, and is worth saying again, that though the Nazis called what they were doing 'euthanasia', it was actually murder. Euthanasia involves the killing (or letting die) of a person because it's *in their own interests* to die - hence the phrase 'mercy killing'. The Nazis regarded those whom they supposedly 'euthanased' as a burden, and a threat, to society - that is, they were killed for the purported good of society, not for their own good. That's murder, not mercy killing.
Lets not also forget that we are not just talking about people who are profoundly disabled./ people who were involved in the euthanasia programme included people who had schizophrenia, senile disorders, therapy resistant paralysis and syphilitic diseases, retardation, encephalitis, Huntington's chorea and other neurological conditions, also those who had been continuously in institutions for at least 5 years, or were criminally insane,.

In the same breath he casts doubt on the speech of the Bishop of Limburg. Either because I only provided the English translation!!!! Or he wasn’t a direct witness so it is meaningless. Bishop Von Galen made an even more important speech this led to Hitler’s halt order. But halt what? If nothing un-towards was happening. If the church was wrong why didn’t the Nazi’s just deny it. They could have thrown open the doors and said look there are no gassing facilities. But they didn’t. the halted a non-existent programme. This is an absurd proposition. Galen’s speech for info. Or perhaps the speech is a forgery?
Fellow Christians! In the pastoral letter of the German bishops of June 26, 1941, which was read out in all the Catholic churches in Germany on July 6, 1941, it states among other things: It is true that there are definite commandments in Catholic moral doctrine which are no longer applicable if their fulfillment involves too many difficulties.
However, there are sacred obligations of conscience from which no one has the power to release us and which we must fulfil even if it costs us our lives. Never under any circumstances may a human being kill an innocent person apart from war and legitimate self-defense. On July 6, I already had cause to add to the pastoral letter the following explanation: for some months we have been hearing reports that, on the orders of Berlin, patients from mental asylums who have been ill for a long time and may appear incurable, are being compulsorily removed. Then, after a short time, the relatives are regularly informed that the corpse has been burnt and the ashes can be delivered. There is a general suspicion verging on certainty, that these numerous unexpected deaths of mentally ill people do not occur of themselves but are deliberately brought about, that the doctrine is being followed, according to which one may destroy so-called 'worthless life,' that is, kill innocent people if one considers that their lives are of no further value for the nation and the state.
I am reliably informed that lists are also being drawn up in the asylums of the province of Westphalia as well of those patients who are to be taken away as so-called 'unproductive national comrades' and shortly to be killed. The first transport left the Marienthal institution near Münster during this past week.
German men and women, section 211 of the Reich Penal Code is still valid. It states: 'He who deliberately kills another person will be punished by death for murder if the killing is premeditated.'
Those patients who are destined to be killed are transported away from home to a distant asylum presumably in order to protect those who deliberately kill those poor people, members of our families, from this legal punishment. Some illness is then given as the cause of death. Since the corpse has been burnt straight away, the relatives and also the criminal police are unable to establish whether the illness really occurred and what the cause of death was.
However, I have been assured that the Reich Interior Ministry and the office of the Reich Doctors' Leader, Dr. Conti, make no bones about the fact that in reality a large number of mentally ill people in Germany have been deliberately killed and more will be killed in the future.
The Penal Code lays down in section 139: 'He who receives credible information concerning the intention to commit a crime against life and neglects to alert the authorities or the person who is threatened in time...will be punished.'
When I learned of the intention to transport patients from Marienthal in order to kill them, I brought a formal charge at the State Court in Münster and with the Police President in Münster by means of a registered letter which read as follows: "According to information which I have received, in the course of this week a large number of patients from the Marienthal Provincial Asylum near Münster are to be transported to the Eichberg asylum as so-called 'unproductive national comrades' and will then soon be deliberately killed, as is generally believed has occurred with such transports from other asylums. Since such an action is not only contrary to the moral laws of God and Nature but also is punishable with death as murder under section 211 of the Penal Code, I hereby bring a charge in accordance with my duty under section 139 of the Penal Code, and request you to provide immediate protection for the national comrades threatened in this way by taking action against those agencies who are intending their removal and murder, and that you inform me of the steps that have been taken."
I have received no news concerning intervention by the Prosecutor's Office or by the police...Thus we must assume that the poor helpless patients will soon be killed.
For what reason?
Not because they have committed a crime worthy of death. Not because they attacked their nurses or orderlies so that the latter had no other choice but to use legitimate force to defend their lives against their attackers. Those are cases where, in addition to the killing of an armed enemy in a just war, the use of force to the point of killing is allowed and is often required.
No, it is not for such reasons that these unfortunate patients must die but rather because, in the opinion of some department, on the testimony of some commission, they have become 'worthless life' because according to this testimony they are 'unproductive national comrades.' The argument goes: they can no longer produce commodities, they are like an old machine that no longer works, they are like an old horse which has become incurably lame, they are like a cow which no longer gives milk.
What does one do with such an old machine? It is thrown on the scrap heap. What does one do with a lame horse, with such an unproductive cow?
No, I do not want to continue the comparison to the end--however fearful the justification for it and the symbolic force of it are. We are not dealing with machines, horses and cows whose only function is to serve mankind, to produce goods for man. One may smash them, one may slaughter them as soon as they no longer fulfil this function.
No, we are dealing with human beings, our fellow human beings, our brothers and sisters. With poor people, sick people, if you like unproductive people.
But have they for that reason forfeited the right to life?
Have you, have I the right to live only so long as we are productive, so long as we are recognized by others as productive?
If you establish and apply the principle that you can kill 'unproductive' fellow human beings then woe betide us all when we become old and frail! If one is allowed to kill the unproductive people then woe betide the invalids who have used up, sacrificed and lost their health and strength in the productive process. If one is allowed forcibly to remove one's unproductive fellow human beings then woe betide loyal soldiers who return to the homeland seriously disabled, as cripples, as invalids. If it is once accepted that people have the right to kill 'unproductive' fellow humans--and even if initially it only affects the poor defenseless mentally ill--then as a matter of principle murder is permitted for all unproductive people, in other words for the incurably sick, the people who have become invalids through labor and war, for us all when we become old, frail and therefore unproductive.
Then, it is only necessary for some secret edict to order that the method developed for the mentally ill should be extended to other 'unproductive' people, that it should be applied to those suffering from incurable lung disease, to the elderly who are frail or invalids, to the severely disabled soldiers. Then none of our lives will be safe any more. Some commission can put us on the list of the 'unproductive,' who in their opinion have become worthless life. And no police force will protect us and no court will investigate our murder and give the murderer the punishment he deserves.
Who will be able to trust his doctor any more?
He may report his patient as 'unproductive' and receive instructions to kill him. It is impossible to imagine the degree of moral depravity, of general mistrust that would then spread even through families if this dreadful doctrine is tolerated, accepted and followed.
Woe to mankind, woe to our German nation if God's Holy Commandment 'Thou shalt not kill,' which God proclaimed on Mount Sinai amidst thunder and lightning, which God our Creator inscribed in the conscience of mankind from the very beginning, is not only broken, but if this transgression is actually tolerated and permitted to go unpunished.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:12 am)

johng, providing the same link which has no evidence for gassings won't do much to further your argument. Why is it that you can't furnish any original documents which support your gassings claim? I can copy & paste page after page of UFO/alien abduction text, means nothing without evidence. Want me to quote some human soap statements too?

Remember, it is you who must provide evidence for claims you make. I say there were no gassings and there is no evidence for them. Logic dictates that you, who believe in gassings, must provide evidence to supprt your position.

Yes, we know that the Germans had a euthanasia program, no big deal given todays commonplace euthanasia. You imply that is was somehow responsible for the deaths of those without untreatable conditions, but as usual you offer no proof, that just won't do in debate. In fact you curiously mention some conditions which you claim were grounds for euthanasia which would, indeed, be grounds for euthanasia.

I support euthanasia on a wide range of conditions, you obviously do not. So be it. But you still offer no evidence for your claimed 'gassings'. And that is what this argument is originally about.

And the Bishop of Limburg silliness. He simply opposed euthanasia and I assume abortion too.... AND was never in this institute to witness what he claimed. That doesn't help your position at all. AND, as usual, there is no original document to examine. Why should anyone accept any posted 'translated' text without verifying it against the original?

Hitler stopped euthanasia because of popular distaste, so what? That is no proof of gassings, it only indicates that the strong Catholic influence in Germany wanted euthanasia stopped. He responded.

Then you paste in text from Galen which contains no evidence for gassings. Yawn. The man quoted didn't like euthanasia, and protested vigorously. The mention of 'ashes' indicates cremation, so what? The mention of untreatable metally ill being euthanized seems not unreasonable, and provides nothing to support your claims of gassings. Have you forgotten about your claims of gassings?

Rants like Galen's are not unique and prove nothing. I give you C. Everett Koop on euthnasia:
"... we must be wary of those who are too willing to end the lives of the elderly and the ill. If we ever decide that a poor quality of life justifies ending that life, we have taken a step down a slippery slope that places all of us in danger. There is a difference between allowing nature to take its course and actively assisting death. The call for euthanasia surfaces in our society periodically, as it is doing now under the guise of "death with dignity" or assisted suicide. Euthanasia is a concept, it seems to me, that is in direct conflict with a religious and ethical tradition in which the human race is presented with " a blessing and a curse, life and death," and we are instructed '...therefore, to choose life." I believe 'euthanasia' lies outside the commonly held life-centered values of the West and cannot be allowed without incurring great social and personal tragedy. This is not merely an intellectual conundrum. This issue involves actual human beings at risk..."
-- C. Everett Koop, M.D. *

*taken from the book KOOP, The Memoirs of America's Family Doctor by C. Everett Koop, M.D., Random House, 1991.


You still have not shown evidence for gassings, johng

- Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:09 pm)

So much for the Bishop of Limburg and Bishop von Galen, here's more:
"... that a great disturbance has arisen in our people today because the mass dying of mentally ill persons is discussed everywhere and unfortunately the most absurd rumors are emerging about the number of deaths the manner of death, etc."

- Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich, in writing to the Ministry of Justice, as shown in NO-846


Still no gassings.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby J William » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:48 pm)

Johng wrote:
After the arrival of the vehicle, the citizens of Hadamar watch the smoke rise out of the chimney and are tortured with the ever-present thought, of the miserable victims, especially when repulsive odors annoy them, depending on the direction of the wind.


It would appear that the quoted Bishop was engaging in a bit of hyperbole. Crematoria giving off smoke and offensive odors?

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:26 pm)

Johng wrote:This is a fascinating line of argument. I have provided the link to the archive, and repeat it again,
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/findbuecher/ ... infueh.php

Thank you.

Anything that comes out of the official Germany concerning the Jewish Holocaust should be considered with a healthy amount of skepticism.
Germany is even after 60 years after the war still an occupied country with no true sovereignty and no constitution. Everybody else left in the meantime, except for the Americans, who don’t seem to know how to find their way home.
The German power elite acts as the vassals for the occupying forces, they get their instructions also from Israel, Scharon and the German Jewish Zentral Rat, Paul Spiegel.
Germans don’t have a freedom of speech as far as the Holocaust is concerned. And a vast system of denunciators has been established by the left wing anti-fascist parties.

Modern Germany is obsessed with a strange addiction of self-flagellation.

Nobody as far as I know disputes the German euthanasia program.

I have a whole book about it: Burleigh “Death and Deliverance. Euthanasia in Germany 1900-1945”.
In it is the construction of a gas chamber in the basement of the`hospital Hadamar described, based on the`testimony of a plumber Scherwing before a German post war court, who installed in the alleged gas chamber a row of showerheads at the ceiling and a ¾ inch gas pipe 75 cm above the ground in which 50 to 60 4mm holes were drilled underneah the benches, airtight doors and a ventilator.

I personally have problems with this installation in the basement of the hospital, because nothing is described about how much gas was released into the room, how long the exposure took, how the gas removal was handled, and how the personnel tested for the gas remnants. CO is very poisonous, colourless, odorless and explosive. No effective gas mask has yet been invented, and who in his right mind would release such a gas in the basement of a military hospital?

The Holocaust industry attempts desperately to establish a link between the euthanasia program and the alleged gassing with the exhaust fumes from diesel engines.

Too bad that they can’t find the remains of the millions of Jewish victims who were allegedly gassed with the diesel exhasust fumes in the camps Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno.

As the say in Germany: Lügen haben kurze Beine (Lies have short legs).

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Postby nny » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:25 pm)

- Euthanasia was not a "crime" in Germany, nor is it in many countries. In fact Hitler ordered it stopped when it became unpopular. A real 'Hitler order'. Ahem.

-Hannover


Something I learned in HS that at the time I found very difficult to reconcile with (My then) exterminationist or conformist beliefs was that the Allies found thousdands upon thousands of lbs of chemical weapons stockpiles in Germany after the war. I've heard reasoning from "Hitler was very sensitive to the use of poison gas during wartime since he himself was a victim of a mustard gas attack which almost killed him during WWI" to "Hitler would not use them for fear that the Allies with a greater industrial potential would devestate Germany with them". The former reasoning seems consistent with Hitlers order to cease the euthanasia gassings.

But take Albert Speers testimony on Tabun and Sarin nerve gasses :

All I know is that these two gases both had a quite extraordinary effect, and that there was no respirator, and no protection against them that we knew of. So the soldiers would have been unable to protect themselves against this gas in any way. For the manufacture of this gas we had about three factories, all of which were undamaged and which until November 1944 were working at full speed. When rumors reached us that gas might be used, I stopped its production in November 1944.

http://www.corax.org/revisionism/docume ... sarin.html

Its well known that the original nerve agents were manufactured in Germany during the second WW (That is why they are known as G-agents, for German or Dr. Gerhard Schrader). See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_agen ... rve_agents

http://www.answers.com/topic/nerve-agent

It is quite interesting that the Nazis put so much time and energy into producing these weapons just to never use them, when they had a full blown extermination program in effect and decided to use much less efficient HCN in ZyclonB form or CO / CO2 from 'huge jet engines' to asphyxiate their victims.

I've also found things such as Hitler being a vegetarian, not fond of drinking alcohol, opposed to venesection and against animal experimentation to be contrary to common 'knowledge' of him. I always get a chuckle out of mentioning to vegetarians I meet "hey hitler was a vegetarian also" ;)

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:36 am)

Another thing:

If the euthanasia program could be stopped simply by interference of some officials of the catholic church, why on earth did they not stop the Jewish Holocaust, i.e. the systematic killing of 6 million Jews mostly in gas chambers, the same way?
Poland is a very catholic country with strong communication ties to the pope in Rome, I am certain.
The Holy Father with his cardinals and bishops could have stopped it in no time by just spreading the word to the German catholics.

My explanation is that there never was a Holocaust, no systematic killing of 6 million Jews.

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Postby nny » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:51 am)

Bergmann wrote:Another thing:

If the euthanasia program could be stopped simply by interference of some officials of the catholoic church, why on earth did they not stop the Jewish Holocaust, i.e. the systematic killing of 6 million Jews mostly in gas chambers, the same way?
Poland is a very catholic country with strong communication ties to the pope in Rome, I am certain.
The Holy Father with his cardinals and bishops could have stopped it in no time by just spreading the word to the German catholics.

My explanation is that there never was a Holocaust, no systematic killing of 6 million Jews.


I'd have to agree with Butz with his assessment on the holocaust which was without the 'testimonies' of the 'major criminals' (And the assassinations of some of them) there is virtually no evidence for a plan to exterminate all the jews. I'm sure there are startling statistics about the number of Germans who confessed vs the number of Germans in the same situations whom were executed.

I'm sure that the majority of you have read Dissecting the Holocaust and Hoax of the Twentieth Century but for those who haven't I would refer you to the US airmen in Korea whom 'confessed under duress' to the use of biological weapons (they were tortured into confession), or the Spanish Inquisition which 'produced thousands of magical witches' whom were able to 'cast spells' but do nothing to save themselves. :/

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:16 pm)

According to the tall tales, euthanasia gassings were done at Hartheim Castle.
See that notion undone here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=533

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:04 pm)

This is another picture of a T4 gas chamber. It's the one from Bernburg/Saale, which you can see on the map I have posted in the middle of the Reich.

Image

Is this finally proof of the use of gas chambers in the T4 program? Let's see what the caption says:

"The gas chamber (3x4,25m 2,50m high) of the institution Bernburg/Saale, which looks like a shower room. The picture was made after the gassing personnel had left and after the Nazi's reconstruction for reasons of camouflage."

Bad luck! Again the Nazis had managed to remove all traces! And notice that they didn't just get rid of the gas chamber. No - they actually reconstructed it as a real shower room. Those clever bastards!!!

(I kinda understand the idea that the Nazis tried to deceive the victims by constructing fake shower rooms; but why would they construct real shower rooms to disguise that a gas chamber had existed?)


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