Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania

[roberto]

[Note to Muehlenkamp about this post & others:
"Roberto:
You have been challenged to actually show us a verifiable excavations and the huge amount of human remains that you allege.
Your recent posting of various 'walls of text' which do not address those challenges are simply dodges and below the standards of this forum.
However, I have left the photos that you do think prove your claims about Ponar.
Cheers, M1"]

We now get to what are probably the most interesting images in the Yad Vashem collection of photos captioned as having been taken at Ponary.

OS 1:
YV Item ID: 22292
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen leading Jews to the murder site in the forest, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: A2725/22
YV Name of submitter: Dr. Krakowski
YV Source: Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
YV Credit: Bundesarchiv
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.

OS 2:
YV Item ID: 26903
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militiamen marching Jews, with their heads covered, to their deaths, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 4613/916
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.

OS 2a:
YV Item ID: 22937
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Lithuanian militia leading Jews with hoods on their heads to the place of their execution, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: B2725/22
YV Name of submitter: Dr. Krakowski
YV Source: Ludwigsburg - Willi Dressen
YV Credit: Bundesarchiv
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days.

There are two photos in the Yad Vashem archives showing scenes similar to those described by Pflüger, Hamann and Schroff, but apparently taken by someone other than Schroff (though one is captioned as being from Schroff), as Schroff only mentioned two photos in his testimony.


YV Item ID: 100107
YV Title: Ponary, Poland, Jews who were led to the place they will be executed by Lithuanian militiamen, 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 75FO4
YV Credit: Yad Vashem
YV Places: Ponary,Wilno,Wilno,Poland
YV Photographer: Otto Schroff
YV additional info: This photograph was taken in July 1941 by Otto Schroff, a member of the 96th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht, who witnessed the killing of around 400 Jews at Paneriai on three consecutive days. At this site, near the city of Vilna, the Soviet authorities prepared huge pits for storing petrol tanks they still had not filled. During the Nazi occupation, starting 07/1941, they brought Jews, Gypsies, POWs, and Nazi opponents to these pits where they were executed.

OS 4?
YV Item ID: 100101
YV Title: Ponary, Poland. Two Jews just before their execution, surrounded by German soldiers, YV
YV June-July 1941.
YV Archival Signature: 75EO4

It would be interesting to know more about who took these photographs and when they were taken.

[Moderator]

Roberto:
You have been challenged to actually show us a verifiable excavations and the huge amount of human remains that you allege.
Your recent posting of various 'walls of text' which do not address those challenges are simply dodges and below the standards of this forum.

However, I have left the photos that you do think prove your claims about Ponar.

Cheers, M1

[Hannover]

Roberto's 'pictures' are simply hilarious and indicative of extreme desperation for something, anything to distract from the facts.
Anyone could and obviously did make, stage such fakes and call them what they want.

As I previously posted:

Anyone could caption this photo as "Nazi slave labor digs mass grave for Jews'.



Actually, it's "Air raid precautions, 1940."

Note that even Roberto admits that many are fakes, miscaptioned, etc. In trying to appear 'reasonable' he actually issues a cry for help.

To summarize Roberto Muhlenkamp's last two posts, actually no different from his previous embarrassing attempts, we see more of the same communist / Zionist creations:

Photos of who knows where?
Who knows when?
By who knows who?
Some are just piles of clothing & dirt that Roberto hopes will go unnoticed.
Many are simply be war time victims utterly unrelated to the impossible '6M Jews & 5M others'.

And oh those Bolsheviks / communists, they did a whole lot of killing ...'What the hell, comrades, let's just call them 'holocaust victims and avoid the blame'.

Then, on one hand Roberto and the "Holocau$t Industry" say that the German made all the alleged Jew remains magically disappear, then they turn around and present faked photos of alleged remains that they previously claimed were disappeared.

But then that's what happens when Zionist Roberto and those like him try to defend an impossible storyline.
'Once they lie, they must continue to lie.'

Roberto Muehlenkamp has been challenged to provide this forum with verifiable excavations of a claimed 100,000 at Ponar and the remains of an alleged 100,000 at Ponar.
So what do we get? Faked & staged photos with no proof whatsoever that they depict what they claim to depict.
It all could be solved right now, today, 2 guys, a shovel & a video camera and issue settled.
That won't happen, because it never happened.

Now see what a real excavation looks like here:
'Katyn facts: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn'
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=758

And this, as posted by 'Revisionist':

This is German footage of the Katyn massacre site.
https://vid.me/gMwcm

Yet we see nothing like that from the lying "Holocau$t Industry".

We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

[Elroy]

Roberto's 'pictures' are simply hilarious and indicative of extreme desperation for something, anything to distract from the facts.
Anyone could and obviously did make, stage such fakes and call them what they want.

As I previously posted:

Anyone could caption this photo as "Nazi slave labor digs mass grave for Jews'.



Actually, it's "Air raid precautions, 1940."

Note that even Roberto admits that many are fakes, miscaptioned, etc. In trying to appear 'reasonable' he actually issues a cry for help.

To summarize Roberto Muhlenkamp's last two posts, actually no different from his previous embarrassing attempts, we see more of the same communist / Zionist creations:

Photos of who knows where?
Who knows when?
By who knows who?
Some are just piles of clothing & dirt that Roberto hopes will go unnoticed.
Many are simply be war time victims utterly unrelated to the impossible '6M Jews & 5M others'.

And oh those Bolsheviks / communists, they did a whole lot of killing ...'What the hell, comrades, let's just call them 'holocaust victims and avoid the blame'.

Then, on one hand Roberto and the "Holocau$t Industry" say that the German made all the alleged Jew remains magically disappear, then they turn around and present faked photos of alleged remains that they previously claimed were disappeared.

But then that's what happens when Zionist Roberto and those like him try to defend an impossible storyline.
'Once they lie, they must continue to lie.'

Roberto Muehlenkamp has been challenged to provide this forum with verifiable excavations of a claimed 100,000 at Ponar and the remains of an alleged 100,000 at Ponar.
So what do we get? Faked & staged photos with no proof whatsoever that they depict what they claim to depict.
It all could be solved right now, today, 2 guys, a shovel & a video camera and issue settled.
That won't happen, because it never happened.

Now see what a real excavation looks like here:
'Katyn facts: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn'
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=758

And this, as posted by 'Revisionist':

This is German footage of the Katyn massacre site.
https://vid.me/gMwcm

Yet we see nothing like that from the lying "Holocau$t Industry".

We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

Yeah

That really looks like they're digging a "mass grave"..

Some observations:

1. A long thin ditch with precision straight edges- you know- mathematically correct walls are an essential requirement for a mass grave right? Er, no lol.

2. These captives look simply terrified of their predicament of imminent death whilst digging their own grave right? er no...

People take off their thinking caps when primed with a silly narrative and presented with an image used to shock.

But once that veil is lifted, you can see and think clearly about it now.

Unfortunately Roberto and Andrew's site doesn't allow smack downs.

[borjastick]

Can anyone shed any light on what the location of pictures 1,2,2a is? It looks like some very odd kind of excavation, presumably for some civil engineering process and certainly not what one would dig to use as a grave site. Presumably this is still there and would give up its secrets were it to be dug over somewhat.

Not sure if the pictures of men with head covers on is a work of fakery propaganda or something altogether odd. Strange that when there is a shot which doesn't show German soldiers those in it with guns are automatically assumed to be working for the Germans, never that they might be Russians killing Russians or similar.

[Dermium]

You have been challenged to actually show us a verifiable excavations and the huge amount of human remains that you allege.

Roberto, now that Ponary has been added to The National Association of Forensic Historians CRIME  SCENE  INVESTIGATION  CHALLENGE:

BELZEC, CHELMNO, PONARY, SOBIBOR and TREBLINKA II
 
Are the remains of over 2.1 million jews really buried in the 94 alleged mass graves?

...

$1,000.00 - will be remitted for each one of the 94 claimed / alleged / insinuated extant “huge mass graves” of Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II that have been identified by The N.A.F.H. - that have been scientifically proven to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of at least 21 people.

And you (and Andrew Mathis) have been appointed arbiters of the challenge:

Fourth - If a potential claimant can get Michael Shermer to categorically endorse their eligibly submitted proof (by explicitly stating that said posted proof meets his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof) - the claimant will receive the promised cash reward. However, if Shermer refuses to endorse an eligibly submitted proof, potential claimants can still receive a monetary reward via endorsement from a majority of the following:

David Cole, Eric Hunt, David Irving, Andrew Mathis, Roberto Muehlenkamp and Mark Weber.

I was wondering when we will be seeing your alleged proof that this alleged "holocaust within the holocaust" actually happened?

[Dermium]

What is taking Andrew and Roberto so long to show us their Ponary "proof"?

Consider:

...And the fake news announcing the fraudulently alleged “scientific discovery” of the 7th so-called “huge mass grave” of Ponary (#7/55 of the alleged 94) is mentioned by the fraudulent archaeologist Richard Freund in this link here:

https://thehollywoodtimes.net/2017/04/2 ... s-sleeves/

RICHARD FREUND: “So we came to Lithuania with all this equipment to do one thing, to find the Great Synagogue of Vilna. And we found it. But when I come with all that technology, one of the things is I share the technology. I ask every single archeological team in town, “Is there any project you want us to do for free?” And the Vilna Gaon Jewish State Museum said, “We have two problems: Ponar, this forest has 100,000 people who were buried there. We don’t know where all the burial pits are. It’s just a forest. Can you help us find the burial pits?”

And we haven’t talked about it, but we found the burial pit that was 72 feet long and 12 feet deep that had 7,000 people in it.

http://www.nafcash.com/

[Breker]

Mr. Freund declared:

And we haven’t talked about it, but we found the burial pit that was 72 feet long and 12 feet deep that had 7,000 people in it.

We suggest that this Richard Freund actually do more than 'talk about it'. He really should show the world his "burial pit that was 72 feet long and 12 feet deep that had 7,000 people in it". Certainly this would amount to a rather big news story, if he could show us what he 'talks about'.
I'm not holding my breath. Talk is cheap when it comes to providing "Holocaust" proof. It certainly appears that talk is all they have.
B.

[Hektor]

Mr. Freund declared:

And we haven’t talked about it, but we found the burial pit that was 72 feet long and 12 feet deep that had 7,000 people in it.

We suggest that this Richard Freund actually do more than 'talk about it'. He really should show the world his "burial pit that was 72 feet long and 12 feet deep that had 7,000 people in it". Certainly this would amount to a rather big news story, if he could show us what he 'talks about'.
I'm not holding my breath. Talk is cheap when it comes to providing "Holocaust" proof. It certainly appears that talk is all they have.
B.

72 feet - That's about 24 meters long.
12 feet - That's about 4 meters deep.

Why don't they tell us how broad it is?

And of course no excavation, identification, photos. Nobody interested in that?

It's almost as preposterous like portrayal in movies:

[Dermium]

I see that Mr. Gerdes has turned the screws on Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp again:

$1,000.00 - will be remitted for each one of the 100 claimed / alleged / insinuated - “huge mass graves” / cremation pits - of Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. - which have been scientifically proven to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of at least 21 people.

...

Fourth - If a potential claimant can get Michael Shermer to categorically endorse their eligibly submitted proof (by explicitly stating that said posted proof meets his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof) - the claimant will receive the promised cash reward. However, if Shermer refuses to endorse an eligibly submitted proof, potential claimants can still receive a monetary reward via endorsement from a majority of the following:

David Cole, Eric Hunt, David Irving, Andrew Mathis, Roberto Muehlenkamp, James Randi, Nicholas Terry and Mark Weber.

http://www.nafcash.com/

[Edify]

This article alleges that there are 12 "burial pits" at Ponar:

Dr. Freund and his colleagues, working with the PBS science series NOVA for a documentary that will be broadcast next year, also uncovered another burial pit containing the ashes of perhaps 7,000 people. That would be the 12th burial pit identified in Ponar; officially known today as Paneriai.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/science/holocaust-ponar-tunnel-lithuania.html

[Hannover]

Dr. Freund and his colleagues, working with the PBS science series NOVA for a documentary that will be broadcast next year, also uncovered another burial pit containing the ashes of perhaps 7,000 people. That would be the 12th burial pit identified in Ponar; officially known today as Paneriai.

Notice the typical dishonest language. They "uncovered" nothing, otherwise we would be seeing it 24/7/365.

- Hannover

American Pravda: Holocaust Denial, by Ron Unz
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda ... st-denial/

[borjastick]

Dr. Freund and his colleagues, working with the PBS science series NOVA for a documentary that will be broadcast next year, also uncovered another burial pit containing the ashes of perhaps 7,000 people. That would be the 12th burial pit identified in Ponar; officially known today as Paneriai.

Notice the typical dishonest language. They "uncovered" nothing, otherwise we would be seeing it 24/7/365.

- Hannover

American Pravda: Holocaust Denial, by Ron Unz
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda ... st-denial/

But this was my point on the other thread wot I commented on about this tv documentary. They carried out a gpr sweep of an area in the forest and on that scan they picked out an anomaly. This, to them, looked like a mass grave because it was long and thin and could hold thousands of bodies. They gave it little or no investigation time on tv but simply smiled at each other and declared it a mass grave which must contain 5000-7000 bodies! Amazing that they just make it up as they go along. Similar to when Caroline Sturdy Colls found some bricks at Treblinka and declared she'd found the gas chamber. Rigorous it ain't.