Why would they invent this ?

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Hektor
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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Hektor » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:38 pm)

Jurgen wrote:In my opinion, the biggest suspect is the great Banking houses/International Financiers etc. Germany provided a sterling example of how a country can flourish when you oust them (the Banksters et al). So war was declared. The "Good Guys" won, and the NSDAP was tainted with such evil that no-one would dare look to the monetary/economic changes they put in place and replicate them in their own countries, thereby robbing the Banksters of their profits..
They for sure got motive, but that's not enough to establish them as perpetrator, one would need far more than the mere suspicion.

Indeed the "economy of the third Reich" is some kind of mysteriously, mostly ignored area. The common narrative being told is quite vague when it comes to details. What usually is said that Hitler expanded the armaments sector and that's how he solved the issue of unemployment. He financed the armament purchases by "making debt". This is really just a caricature on what has happened and tries to serve the "Hitler was keen on war narrative".

The reality is a bit different from this. The first thing the National Socialists did do was consolidating their power getting most of the civil society organisations on line with the program. This would be the trade unions. They started with infrastructure building programs. Those were financed with with interest free loans calculated based on expected labor expenses. Same principle applied to privately owned businesses. They could get loans based on the wages they'd pay over a certain period. With that money they could purchase more equipment and resources, the loan would be paid back with the revenue from sales. There was some dirigism involved in the economy and also various price and currency controls. International trade was conducted via an exchange scheme. E.g. German machines against commodities from another country. In all this the banks, especially the bigger ones were fixed into their place, preventing them from making inflated profits on loans and international trade. That was huge profit opportunities taken away from them and essentially the purchasing power channeled elsewhere.

The economic mode isn't without problems, but since the "Third Reich Economy" has never been investigated thoroughly and isn't really part of public discourse, this is difficult to ascertain.

The fact that the standard of living among German workers grew tremendously was also noticed by foreigner, other countries may get encouraged to fix the banksters in their place and emulate Germany. Needless to say that this will have called the lobbyists on the plan, who would then use their power with media and politicians AGAINST National Socialist Germany.

The emergence of the Holocaust falls into that milieu, but I think more research on roleplayers is needed.



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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Rémi Perron » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:12 pm)

Sweeney wrote:If the holocaust is a fiction then who would be in on it? When did it start? And why? Why would people invent this massive crime? I'm genuinely interested in your answers. I'm not one of those people who thinks that it's all about anti-semitism. You know, it may be all a fiction.
I can see that the 6 million bodies haven't been dug up. But approaching it from the other direction, why should they invent this fiction?


Who invented the werewolf ? And the vampire ?
Nobody. Or to be more specific : a lot of people. Some are credulous (the vast majority in my opinion) and some are liars.
One night, a guy saw a man bite another man and the legend was born, but because their is trillions of people on this planet, the probability the see a person bite someone else is pretty high...so those two guys - at least - can testify that their some guys out there who drink the blood of humans.
After that, you got this other guy, who see himself as an historian and he start the find every time someone get bite in the world. He discover an incredible thing : thousand of people are bitten every years !
That's the proof everyone were looking for : vampires are with us.

The so called holocaust work the same way : rumours, pre-existing negative representations of germans, credulous people at start, then conspiracy theory and war propaganda.

I think the biggest misktake who need to be avoided at all cost is talking like someone, a person or a group, though one day "Ok, let's create a fake genocide ! That will allow us to have a country in the middle east/get money/take over the world/whatever !".

It's far more than imposible : reality just don't work that way.
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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Hannover » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:40 pm)

R. Perron said:
The so called holocaust work the same way : rumours, pre-existing negative representations of germans, credulous people at start, then conspiracy theory and war propaganda.

See my post, the third one in the thread, page 1.*
Jews have been faking the '6,000,000' since at least 1869.

This is no "rumour" or coincidence'.
And what "credulous people" are you referring to?
Do tell.

- Hannover

Belief in the 'holocaust' = belief in the impossible = religion.

* again:
Hannover wrote:Sweeney, you asked:
But approaching it from the other direction, why should they invent this fiction?

Perhaps you should ask them.

Jews have been marketing the '6,000,000' lie since at least 1869:

Image

larger:
http://balder.org/judea/New-York-Times- ... e-1869.php

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Elroy » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:43 pm)

Yeah Hannover is right about that...

The 6 million Jew thing (originally "in peril" since 1839 and later killed beginning in the 1880's, first against the Russian's, then against the German's, even being called a "Holocaust" at the beginning of the 1900's)- is undeniable propaganda.

So is the gas chamber myth undeniable propaganda, so much so that when they were relayed by uninformed British intelligence back echoed they were dismissed as being black propaganda they'd inserted, documentarily proven.

So even if you were INCLINED to believe the lie story as a newbie- with these 2 quick shots explored, you then have to do so against the backdrop that the Nazi's- after a century long campaign by the Jews of 6 million of them being killed, and a 4 year long campaign of gas chamber black propaganda undeniable- that the Nazi's by sheer mind boggling coincidence happened to kill 6 million Jews in gas chambers out of the blue exactly as the fraudulent propaganda had been describing?

Kind of hard to believe- isn't it.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Rémi Perron » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:11 pm)

Jews have been faking the '6,000,000' since at least 1869.

This is no "rumour" or coincidence'.


It is the principle of rumours : a story told again again, with some variations but with a constant core. Oral tradition have a great importance in rumour spreading, so it's not surpring that a people with an important oral tradition like jewish people have their part. Here with a got a number 6 millions, and a common fear from a people who generated hostility since centuries : the fear of being exterminated.
Sometimes in history, the process of rumour, under particulars circonstances, give birth to a myth. That what happend with the "holocaust".
Obviously, some people did their part intentionaly in this process (for short term propaganda purposes), but their is absolutly no way for them to anticipate such consequences.
Simply because of the complexity of reality.
Looking back, everything seems to fit perfelcty : yes, because it happened, but no one could have imagine that BEFORE.

And what "credulous people" are you referring to?


I think of prisonners from concentration camps. In my opinion, the vast majority who tell us about an "extermination" after the war were honest.
That don't mean they were rights, but they were'nt liars.
Memory is like that, they heard something, some guys told them that they saw a gas chambers...and after fews years the take those souvenirs for themselves.
Of course, their is real liar the Vrba, Muller, etc. but that's not the majority.

Thousands of witness saw Our Lady of Fátima in Portugal, after three kids told them she will appear. Are they liars ?

Is their an international catholic plot to push a naration about the mother of god since two thousand years ?
Or do we see the power of self fulfilling prophecy, of faith, of rumour ?

PS : I do my best in english, dear friends, please be indulgent when i'm not absolutely clear !
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« The Orthodox Holocaust Narrative as a Conspiracy Theory » : https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/9/3/4879

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Hannover » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:25 pm)

Remi:
Let's not forget that there were thousands upon thousands of "eyewitnesses" attesting to the 'truth' of witchcraft & sorcery in formal court proceedings. People were executed because of these false "eyewitnesses".
Were they lying? Yes they were, there's no better word for.

The fake "holocaust eyewitnesses" are no different.
They claim events which did not happen, could not happen.
AND, people were falsely executed because of these 'holocaust' liars. Remember that.

What you suggest as innocent is in fact malevolent.

I recommend that you look at Nuremberg for examples. A veritable Liars Parade.
I also suggest you look at page after page of posts at this forum which utterly expose these liars.

Bottom line:
There are reasons for these lies.
Political power and cash ... tons of it.

"Some stories are true that never happened."
- "eyewitness" Elie Wiesel

Best, Hannover

The '6,000,000 Jews' lie and the laughing Mexican:

If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Elroy » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:33 pm)

Rémi Perron wrote:
Jews have been faking the '6,000,000' since at least 1869.

This is no "rumour" or coincidence'.


It is the principle of rumours : a story told again again, with some variations but with a constant core. Oral tradition have a great importance in rumour spreading, so it's not surpring that a people with an important oral tradition like jewish people have their part. Here with a got a number 6 millions, and a common fear from a people who generated hostility since centuries : the fear of being exterminated.
Sometimes in history, the process of rumour, under particulars circonstances, give birth to a myth. That what happend with the "holocaust".
Obviously, some people did their part intentionaly in this process (for short term propaganda purposes), but their is absolutly no way for them to anticipate such consequences.
Simply because of the complexity of reality.
Looking back, everything seems to fit perfelcty : yes, because it happened, but no one could have imagine that BEFORE.

And what "credulous people" are you referring to?


I think of prisonners from concentration camps. In my opinion, the vast majority who tell us about an "extermination" after the war were honest.
That don't mean they were rights, but they were'nt liars.
Memory is like that, they heard something, some guys told them that they saw a gas chambers...and after fews years the take those souvenirs for themselves.
Of course, their is real liar the Vrba, Muller, etc. but that's not the majority.

Thousands of witness saw Our Lady of Fátima in Portugal, after three kids told them she will appear. Are they liars ?

Is their an international catholic plot to push a naration about the mother of god since two thousand years ?
Or do we see the power of self fulfilling prophecy, of faith, of rumour ?

PS : I do my best in english, dear friends, please be indulgent when i'm not absolutely clear !



I consider this erroneous on both fronts.

For one- you steered away from reality when you mentioned a real "fear" of being exterminated in the century of 6 million propaganda. This might be true of ordinary Jew's as it is about the ordinary Jews and the holocaust today. Except then, as now, that fear was implanted by propaganda used to further the Jewish cause.

And wrong- they, the promoters of the propaganda were exactly aware of what they were doing, there was no "coincidence" about it, that's absurd. They could and did know that a successful nailing ofan enemy with the propaganda could only have been very beneficial.

On the second front- that statement is just flat out false...

To my knowledge- there were/are extremely small number of "witnesses" claiming "extermination"- and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM were absurd liars.

If you have any evidence of a single eye-witness to extermination that even remotely sounds "self" believable- I want to see it?????

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Rémi Perron » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:54 pm)

Let's not forget that there were thousands upon thousands of "eyewitnesses" attesting to the 'truth' of witchcraft & sorcery in formal court proceedings. People were executed because of these false "eyewitnesses".
Were they lying? Yes they were, there's no better word for.


Some of them were lying, for sure.
But in a world were everyone believe in sorcery, looking at a strange person, a little bit crazy, and sincerly interpret here weird side like some sort of witchcraft is nothing less than normal.
If I may be allowed one small digression, the parrallel between wichcraft or satanism and holocaust is pretty interesting : their is also a lot of people who admited treating with demons, or using black magic to do bad things.
Some of them were tortured, for sure, but some weren't. In such univers were everyone believe in demons, it's easier for saving your own skin to tell them "yes, obviously the devil is real, but I didn't pactised with him." That's why some SS testified about the so called gas chambers.

The fake "holocaust eyewitnesses" are no different.
They claim events which did not happen, could not happen.
AND, people were falsely executed because of these 'holocaust' liars. Remember that.


First of all, i don't deny that their's many false witness that are absolute liars.
But saying something that couldn't happened doesn't make you a liar.
If you're in a concentration camp, and if you fear for your life, if you are tired, hungry and if some prisonners spread a tale about gas used to kill people, you won't simply see a line of prisonners heading for the "canada" or "zentral sauna" in Auschwitz I. Even if your absolultly wrong, you will sincerly see a line of futur victim of the krema IV and V.
Let few years pass and you've got a prefectly sincer fasle witness, who is not a liar. Even if he don't think about a mass murder at the time he see this, if he find a naration that fit his first impression, he will find the missing piece of his puzzle.

Sadly, people were condemned and some executed because of that, it's terrible, but it's a classic case of judicial error.

I wouldn't make an appeal to authority but my aproach is the classical revisionnist way to treat the question of the holocaust's origin : even Robert Faurisson use the title "The rumour of Auschwitz" for his first article about the so called gas chambers in journal Le Monde.
In an interview accorded to Marie-Paule Mémy, to the question : « Do you think that the zionists could have invented this rumour for political purpose ? To obtain lare sums of compensation for exemple ? »

He answered :

« No ! Absolutly no ! Their wasn't any conspiracy, nor plot. Their is a rumour. But we never know, or almost never, how a rumour is born. [...] So, no, their is no deliberate exploitation in the origin. »

Interview with Marie-Paule Mémy, 29/04/1989, Écrits révisionnistes T1, p. 425 - 426
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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Hannover » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:53 pm)

Remi:
I do fail to see how somehow who willfully makes claims about something that is in fact impossible is not a liar.
Please clarify.

Also, please tell us about an "eyewitness" that you think was not lying.
Be specific about what they said.

Thanks, Hannover

"Some stories are true that never happened."
- Elie Wiesel
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Rémi Perron » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:05 pm)

I do fail to see how somehow who willfully makes claims about something that is in fact impossible is not a liar.
Please clarify.


Someone can simply misinterpret a fact and forge himself a strong conviction on the base of this unvoluntary misinterpretation. So, if his story is later dismissed, his testimony appear to be wrong, but that's not make him a liar. Simply a guy who have been tricked by his cognitive limits.

For example : you walk into the woods and you see a guy flying. You're don't really know about prestidigitation and you search for a trick but don't see any trick. So you get back home and you say "Wow...you won't believe me...i just saw a man flying, i know it's impossible but this one was really flying !"
And if we discover later that the flying guys had this new invisible rope under is armpits who allowed him to stand in the air. It's still impossible to fly and that don't make you a liar.

NB : my example is not totally accurate because in this case you witness a thing that you knew impossible before seeing it.
For the case of mass murder with gas chambers, in a concentration camp, if you see a column heading to a place and don't come back for some reasons, you can conclude that have been gased and say it to other people that they did, without being a liar and being wrong at the same time.
Not everyone is an expert in gas execution and knowing that such an operation is impossible requiert some knowledge.

Also, please tell us about an "eyewitness" that you think was not lying.
Be specific about what they said.


It's pretty difficult because we obviously can't enter the mind of a person to find if he his sincer or not.
(At least we know that thousands of peoples can't secretly agree to lie, but they can tricked at the same time however.)
I'll do my best to translate the testimony of Michel de Boüard, interned in Mauthausen, who at least one time, talked about a gas chamber like he saw it, and explain why, without being a liar in my opinion, for he was sincere at the moment of his testimony.

« In the monograph about Mauthausen that i gave in WW2 History Review in 54, two times, i talk about a gas chamber. Reflexion time has came, and i asked myself : where did i acquired this conviction that their was a gaz chamber in Mauthausen ? It wasn't during my time in this camp because nor myself, nor anyone esle though that their was one, so it's a « luggage » that i received after the war, it was admited. Then i saw in my text - while i support my statments with references - their were not concerning gas chamber. »

Original quote :

« Dans la monographie sur Mauthausen que j’ai donnée dans La Revue d’histoire de la deuxième guerre mondiale en 54, à deux reprises je parle d’une chambre à gaz. Le temps de la réflexion venu, je me suis dit : où ai-je acquis la conviction qu’il y avait une chambre à gaz à Mauthausen? Ce n’est pas pendant mon séjour au camp car ni moi ni personne ne soupçonnions qu’il pouvait y en avoir, c’est donc un « bagage » que j’ai reçu après la guerre, c’était admis. Puis j’ai remarqué que dans mon texte – alors que j’appuie la plupart de mes affirmations par des références – il n’y en avait pas concernant la chambre à gaz. »
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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Elroy » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:16 pm)

Remi Peron;

Your analogy is false. For a start- someone "witnessing" a column of people entering a place and then not coming out, only chimney smoke, is not believable. In other words we can prove that that was untrue- and hence, there's no way to "frame" this experience in any way as a mistake or confusion like your man in the woods suspended by rope analogy.

In a case where say, they were seperated from their loved ones and assumed they'd been killed or heard the gas shower rumour and thought they were lucky to survive etc, fair enough- but none of these are witnesses to extermination, quite the opposite.

These guys who claim to have actually seen the gassing operation or the burning operation etc- how can you reconcile any of their statements to a "mistake" and not a deliberate lie? Can bodies really burn faster than an hour? No. Do the bodies really turn blue when gassed? No. The witnesses are lying.

What about a case where people hearing the gassing rumours witnessed columns of people going through the delousing process? The answer is they reappeared out the other side- hence, unless they were seperated from loved ones and stupidly thought they'd been killed, again we have a liar.

So strictly speaking, only those who were "eye" witnesses to kilings we're talking about- but to expand, the vast majority of witnesses to what I call "auxillary" witnesses, such as you offered, also lied. In this class is also the "saviours" such as Irena Sendler- possibly the most ridiculous one of the lot doing the rounds at the moment, she didn't witness anyhting remotely like extermination herself, her saviour story is based on the fact it was happening that's it, and was outrageously false.impossible from start to finish.

"Bystanders" in the sense that they say, seen a trainload of Jew's depart and return empty etc, prove nothing.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Elroy » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:31 pm)

Rémi Perron wrote:
It's pretty difficult because we obviously can't enter the mind of a person to find if he his sincer or not.


We can assess both the logical consistency and of his text and mannerisms of his statements delivery by voice. More importantly we can assess his tesitmony against demonstrable facts.

(At least we know that thousands of peoples can't secretly agree to lie, but they can tricked at the same time however.)


This is the common party line of the Jew "hive mind"- false. Key witnesses are conscripted to lie. There are financial and prestige rewards for lying sanctioned by society, and a strong ethnogenetic cause to lie. Individual liars do not need to have convened at a secret meeting to have decided to collectively lie. A centralised base of lies (Holocaust Industry) is all that was and still is required to keep the liars propped and keep pumping them out.

Obviously. Your thinking is caught up in that of an "unliberated mind", one that is preconditioned to believe in lies and sees truth as hateful.

I'll do my best to translate the testimony of Michel de Boüard, interned in Mauthausen, who at least one time, talked about a gas chamber like he saw it, and explain why, without being a liar in my opinion, for he was sincere at the moment of his testimony.

« In the monograph about Mauthausen that i gave in WW2 History Review in 54, two times, i talk about a gas chamber. Reflexion time has came, and i asked myself : where did i acquired this conviction that their was a gaz chamber in Mauthausen ? It wasn't during my time in this camp because nor myself, nor anyone esle though that their was one, so it's a « luggage » that i received after the war, it was admited. Then i saw in my text - while i support my statments with references - their were not concerning gas chamber. »


Ok so what we have here is a guy who didn't witness a gas chamber, then for the short duration of time when Mauthausen was officially pronounced to have had one and the fledgling H-myth industry was pumping out propaganda to the effect there was- this guy, among presumably many others, "jumped on the bandwagon".

And then later "made a save".

I'm sorry, but his own testimony here states he said there was a gas chamber even though he knew he never saw it. Whether you want to soften it up or not, it is still a lie! It wasn't true, and he knew it wasn't true.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Rémi Perron » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:44 pm)

Are you familiar with the concept of false memory ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory
And what do you mean by « a strong ethnogenetic cause to lie. » ?

In a case where say, they were seperated from their loved ones and assumed they'd been killed or heard the gas shower rumour and thought they were lucky to survive etc, fair enough- but none of these are witnesses to extermination, quite the opposite.

These guys who claim to have actually seen the gassing operation or the burning operation etc- how can you reconcile any of their statements to a "mistake" and not a deliberate lie?


Like i said, peoples like Vrba or Müller are real liars. Even with the false memory process you couldn't go that far.
The two types of witness are :
1) The real liar, he invent things and KNOW that they are false at the time he tell them.
2) The person who sincerly believed stories, is tricked by his memorie or who have misinterpreted what he saw/heard.
Last edited by Rémi Perron on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Moderator » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:54 pm)

Remi Perron:
Lets bring some focus to this debate.
You have been asked twice to inform this forum of an alleged eyewitness that you believe is not lying.
Please do so.

FYI, this forum has discussed the 'false memory' issue:

'Key to False Memories Uncovered'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4629
'False memories as 'facts' / some examples'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=14
'False memories and the "misinformation effect"'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1995

Thank you, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Why would they invent this ?

Postby Rémi Perron » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:16 pm)

Lets bring some focus to this debate.
You have been asked twice to inform this forum of an alleged eyewitness that you believe is not lying.
Please do so.


In my opinion, Michel de Boüard, that i have quoted, is an interesting case of a false witness who is not a liar.
He is the type of person i'm talking about : one that didn't intended to tell a false story, but had made his own the legend he heard so many time.
When he realized that, he corrected himself spontaneously, wich is an honest way to work. Not the mark of a liar who stick to his story no matter what.
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