Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
avatar
Elroy
Member
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:15 pm

Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Elroy » 3 months 2 days ago (Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:10 am)

Reviewing the "challenge" of Roberto's on "that other site" concerning lack of direct evidence for jews transited East during operation Reinhardt, they have put forth a rather deceptive prose which would serve to dupe an average viewer into thinking the revisionist truthful position is outlandish and the lie story solid.

Their rouse seems to be, as can be confirmed by reading the challenge and comments allowed to be posted, that the 1.2-1.5 or whatever the figure is jews transited East would have certainly left some family back in Europe which they would have eventually made contact with again. Thus they conclude that, because as they allege there's no record of this en masse, that it didn't happen (and hence were killed).

Needing to reiterate...
- The fact that no jews in such numbers as alleged, even closely, were killed and disposed of in or around the grounds of Treblinka, Sobibor or Belzec has been conclusively proven by the revisionist.
- The fact that not a single jew was killed by the manner of any of the "death chambers" proposed by the lie is conclusively proven by the revisionists
- The fact that every single one of the witnesses and forced-confessions have been busted as fraudulent is proven beyond doubt.

No murder weapon, no witness, definitive proof of the killing not taking place at said locations and no documentation of it at all. Therefore it's not our obligation to demonstrate "where they went".

But anyway...

Evidence of dual citizenship and efforts to secure dual citizenship, or of visiting family abroad such as emigrants from Israel, which had no significant jewish population prior to the war, visiting their former European homelands they were shipped from, shipped East and later emigrated from, would serve as circumstantial but rather obvious proof of their transit and later emigration.

But how do we know who these people were?

Can Muehlenkamp show us the list of names on the train records of the 1.5 million people transited TO the transit camps? Or just figures?

Given we know they changed both name and language often post-war, this isn't totally helpful, but do we even have access to the names? Or do they even exist?

So far every name I have encountered being shipped to Reinhardt has shown up elsewhere, if not East.

One thing perplexing is that for say September 11, there is a huge ceremony with all of their names called out.

Although this is not possible given 6 million or the 1.5 million of Reinhardt- where is there a single memorial for these people explicitly like a large roll of all the names, these names that lists them, even a database?

No census ever being done concocting a database of the millions of missing, assume killed jews has ever been put forth to my knowledge.

^That's not believable, that would have been the first thing on the jewish agenda had it really happened.

My question to Muehlenkamp is also thus "How many Holocaust survivors alleged that their family members DIED or were otherwise never heard of again AFTER ENTERING THE REINHARDT CAMPS? Where they did not first turn up elsewhere (transited)?"

My guess is- F/A!!! And my guess is that the few that do allege that either have (a) no proof of their relatives being transited to these camps and (b) that their afadavits are easily busted by the revisionist.

Again circumstantial evidence against it, flipping the rouse in the other direction.



User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2060
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby borjastick » 3 months 2 days ago (Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:42 am)

Most of those who were transited through these camps were covered, at least in sweeping numeric terms, in the Hofle telegram. In this document it is claimed are the numbers of those who were sent to Treblinka and Belzec plus Sobibor, to a lesser extent for extermination. The total figure is slightly north of 1.2m.

First of all this document says nothing about murder, or gassing or extermination. Secondly where were all these jews supposed to have originated from? Not western europe that's for sure. I have some serious doubts about this document for various reasons. If the numbers in it are correct these people could only have come from Poland, Russia (western ends of), Ukraine, Belorussia etc. Any thoughts?

Your other point concerns those who were transited elsewhere and the didn't contact those remaining in the west after the war. Just how would people in Russia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Palestine, israel etc have contacted those on the other side of the world and iron curtain in such primitive times of communications?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

avatar
Elroy
Member
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:15 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Elroy » 3 months 2 days ago (Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:27 am)

That was one of my points Borjastik- in sweeping numeric terms their transit "to" T B S was "covered". I assume (as in not personally seen myself) that transit "TO" the Reinhardt camps was also covered in "sweeping numerical fashion" in the train records too right?- as in, not by all of these jews being named.

Is that correct? OR am I mistaken and all of these 1.2 million jews "are" named and origined on train or other records?

Because if that is the case, then my last question to Roberto and co..

"How many Holocaust Survivors (all the jews that lived in the German Reich and conquered territory during Nazi occupation) alleged that any family member, friend or hey "anybody they knew" who can be verified by record to have both existed and boarded a train by name from anywhere TO a Reinhardt camp and disappeared without further trace elsewhere"?

..Becomes very relevant. Because if he can't, then it would demonstrate very clearly that of the enormous number of holocaust survivors- that if none or hardly any of them have alleged that with any verification via named record, that the 1.2 million could not have been lost because we would be hearing and seeing such verified accounts everywhere.

^To be sure that would be absurd that there are not hordes of jews naming and mourning their lost people at the Reinhardt camps specifically, and very strongly circumstantially disproves it, basically to the same degree as Roberto's own supposition is for us.

In terms of communication- one would imagine that even in the Soviet Union or behind the Iron Curtain, that postal communication would have been possible to make contact with their loved ones left behind. It's conceivable that ordinary jews receiving such news of their kin surviving would not click that "their" relative was supposed to be among the exterminated. Which also reverts Roberto's reasoning that they'd all discover their loved ones alive and collectively announce it disproving their own holocaust indirectly.

Similarly with actual physical travel, from behind the iron curtain your premise makes a lot of sense, that wouldn't have been possible, which is why I stipulated "from Israel" as I consider emigration from pro-Zionist Soviet Union immediately post-war to Israel in large numbers to be basically surmised, and physical travel from Israel to and from Western Europe certainly plausible, even assisted.

I also have very serious doubts about this document- it stinks pretty badly in itself. Not to mention that if the letters which include L standing for Lublin are interpreted correct, then how is Madjanek an "extermination camp", or a "transit camp" in anything like a pure sense? It was clearly a concentration camp. And the figure of 70,000 always being corrected to 700,000 odd for T, on what grounds? And the late "discovery" and the dodgeyness of the paperwork and origin.

But what I don't understand about what you said completely is why you think that the Jew's going there must have come "from East" or from Poland itself? And not from Western Europe? I'm intrigued. As I don't know enough here to offer thoughts as yet without some enlightenment of elusive facts??

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2060
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby borjastick » 3 months 2 days ago (Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:05 am)

Elroy

Here is a list (estimated) of all countries involved in German occupation showing pre war jewish population and holocaust death toll on the right.
Source - https://www.thoughtco.com/number-of-jew ... ry-4081781

Austria 185,000 50,000
Belgium 66,000 25,000
Bohemia/Moravia 118,000 78,000
Bulgaria 50,000 0
Denmark 8,000 60
Estonia 4,500 2,000
Finland 2,000 7
France 350,000 77,000
Germany 565,000 142,000
Greece 75,000 65,000
Hungary 825,000 550,000
Italy 44,500 7,500
Latvia 91,500 70,000
Lithuania 168,000 140,000
Luxembourg 3,500 1,000
Netherlands 140,000 100,000
Norway 1,700 762
Poland 3,300,000 3,000,000
Romania 609,000 270,000
Slovakia 89,000 71,000
Soviet Union 3,020,000 1,000,000
Yugoslavia 78,000 60,000
Total: 9,793,700 5,709,329

And here from the ann frank web site, originally written in ballpoint pen of course
The right hand figure is the estimated or claimed percentage of jews who died in the holocaust-http://www.annefrankguide.net/en-US/bronnenbank.asp?oid=20747

Country Approximate number of Jews Killed Percentage of Country’s Jews Killed
Albania -- --
Austria 50,000 36
Belgium 25,000 60
Belorussia 245,000 65
Bohemia/Moravia 80,000 89
Bulgaria 11,400 14
Denmark 60 1.3
Estonia 1500 35
Finland 7 2.8
France 90,000 26
Germany 130,000 55
Great Britain 130 --
Greece 65,000 80
Hungary 450,000 70
Italy 7500 20
Latvia 70,000 77
Lithuania 220,000 94
Luxembourg 1950 50
The Netherlands 106,000 76
Norway 870 55
Poland 2,900,000 88
Russia 107,000 11
Romania 270,000 33
Slovakia 71,000 80
Spain -- --
Sweden -- --
Switzerland -- --
Ukraine 900,000 60
Yugoslavia 60,000 80

Source:
The Holocaust Chronicles, 2002

Just compare the figures and then ask yourself how any figures presented by holocaust promoters can be taken seriously. Comparing the figures in just these two sources shows the nonsense claimed. These figures are all over the place.

I draw your attention to two examples, Lithuania and Hungary. In any case there were relatively few from Western Europe who could have been sent east to fill the death tolls claimed for the Hofle telegram.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

avatar
cold beer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby cold beer » 3 months 3 hours ago (Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:11 pm)

I was always under the impression that the vast majority of jews taken to the Reinhardt camps were from Poland.
Do the kosher historians give any kind of breakdown on where the 3 million or so jews of Poland are alleged to have been exterminated?

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2861
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 24 minutes ago (Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:58 pm)

cold beer wrote:I was always under the impression that the vast majority of jews taken to the Reinhardt camps were from Poland.
Do the kosher historians give any kind of breakdown on where the 3 million or so jews of Poland are alleged to have been exterminated?

That three million figure they give isn't even remotely credible, EVEN if you accept the extermination narrative! Remember that Poland was divided and half of the territory fell under USSR occupation for almost two years. The bigger half of Jews would be at least in the end on the Soviet side of the demarcation line (I admit I'd need more demographic data to affirm this).

In this context the following is of interest (Testimony of Joseph Buehler in Nuremberg) :
At that moment Heydrich's invitation to the Governor General was received. The conference was originally supposed to take place in November 1941, but it was frequently postponed and it may have taken place in February 1942. Because of the special problems of the Government General I had asked Heydrich for a personal interview and he received me. On that occasion, among many other things, I described in particular the catastrophic conditions which had resulted from the arbitrary bringing of Jews into the Government General. He replied that for this very reason he had invited the Governor General to the conference. The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received an order from the Fuehrer to round up all the Jews of Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, in Russia. I asked him whether this meant that the further arrival of Jews in the Government General would cease, and whether the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had been brought into the Government General without the permission of the Governor General would be moved out again. Heydrich promised me both these things. Heydrich said furthermore that the Fuehrer had given an order that Theresienstadt, a town in the Protectorate, would become a reservation in which old and sick Jews, and weak Jews who could not stand the strains of resettlement, were to be accommodated in the future. This information left me definitely convinced that the resettlement of the Jews, if not for the sake of the Jews, then for the sake of the reputation and prestige of the German people, would be carried out in a humane fashion. The removal of the Jews from the Government General was subsequently carried out exclusively by the Police. I might add that Heydrich demanded, particularly for himself, his office, and its branches, the exclusive and uninterrupted competence and control in this matter.
viewtopic.php?t=7469


So they already moved Jews from elsewhere in Europe to the Western parts of Poland and Joseph Buehler complained to this. Note that he indicates that "final solution" was to remove Jews from other European countries to Russia. And I have not seen any sound, credible rebuttal of the Buehler-statement at the IMT in Nuremberg by Exterminationists. They evade the issue and use the usual innuendo tactics to distract from the fact that there is no Holocaust elephant in the room.

avatar
cold beer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby cold beer » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:47 pm)

Hektor wrote:That three million figure they give isn't even remotely credible, EVEN if you accept the extermination narrative! Remember that Poland was divided and half of the territory fell under USSR occupation for almost two years. The bigger half of Jews would be at least in the end on the Soviet side of the demarcation line (I admit I'd need more demographic data to affirm this).

In this context the following is of interest (Testimony of Joseph Buehler in Nuremberg) :
At that moment Heydrich's invitation to the Governor General was received. The conference was originally supposed to take place in November 1941, but it was frequently postponed and it may have taken place in February 1942. Because of the special problems of the Government General I had asked Heydrich for a personal interview and he received me. On that occasion, among many other things, I described in particular the catastrophic conditions which had resulted from the arbitrary bringing of Jews into the Government General. He replied that for this very reason he had invited the Governor General to the conference. The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received an order from the Fuehrer to round up all the Jews of Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, in Russia. I asked him whether this meant that the further arrival of Jews in the Government General would cease, and whether the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had been brought into the Government General without the permission of the Governor General would be moved out again. Heydrich promised me both these things. Heydrich said furthermore that the Fuehrer had given an order that Theresienstadt, a town in the Protectorate, would become a reservation in which old and sick Jews, and weak Jews who could not stand the strains of resettlement, were to be accommodated in the future. This information left me definitely convinced that the resettlement of the Jews, if not for the sake of the Jews, then for the sake of the reputation and prestige of the German people, would be carried out in a humane fashion. The removal of the Jews from the Government General was subsequently carried out exclusively by the Police. I might add that Heydrich demanded, particularly for himself, his office, and its branches, the exclusive and uninterrupted competence and control in this matter.
viewtopic.php?t=7469


So they already moved Jews from elsewhere in Europe to the Western parts of Poland and Joseph Buehler complained to this. Note that he indicates that "final solution" was to remove Jews from other European countries to Russia. And I have not seen any sound, credible rebuttal of the Buehler-statement at the IMT in Nuremberg by Exterminationists. They evade the issue and use the usual innuendo tactics to distract from the fact that there is no Holocaust elephant in the room.


This testimony is very interesting, I haven't put much time or effort into the trial testimonies and probably should.
But I'm lost on your point as far as the numbers of jews are concerned.
By the time this meeting takes place Germany occupies all of Poland.
Although reasonable people assume that large numbers of jews successfully retreated east with the soviets out of German reach, my understanding is the other side either doesn't acknowledge this or counts those who retreated among the victims of mass shooting operations.
Which by itself should cause a problem because they can't die twice.
Please dumb down this for me...
How many jews of Poland are said to have died in camps by extermination or otherwise?
What makes that claim impossible?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9228
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Hannover » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:33 pm)

The piece below is quite revealing as it admits that countless Jews entered the USSR.
Also see important links that follow.

- Hannover

This is too easy.

German Lauds Russia for Joining Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees
http://www.jta.org/1944/02/23/archive/g ... r-refugees

February 23, 1944

NEW YORK (Feb. 22)

Herbert H. Lehman, Director General of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration, today issued a statement lauding the decision of the Russian Government to join the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees.

The statement was made in connection with the announcement that an arrangement has been reached between the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and the Jewish press in Moscow, under which Jewish publications in Russia will, for the first time since the Soviet Revolution, receive JTA cables from the United States, Palestine and other countries depicting Jewish life there. This is the first time that any publication in the U.S.S.R. has been permitted to receive cabled news directly from any foreign news agency.

Russia’s decision to join the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees marks the country’s entrance into the international effort to alleviate the plight of refugees during and after the war. At the time when the Intergovernmental Committee was established at the Evian Conference in 1938, the Soviet Union was not invited to participate. Since the outbreak of the war hundreds of thousands of Jews from Poland, Rumania and the Baltic countries have been given shelter in the U.S.S.R., and many of them were permitted to pass through Russia en route to the United States and to Palestine.

The arrangement under which Jewish Telegraphic Agency news will be cabled to Jewish publications in Russia is a result of the increased interest on the part of Jews in Russia in Jewish life and achievements in other countries. This interest was indicated several months ago when a Jewish cultural delegation was sent to the United States and England, composed of Prof. Solomon Mikhoels and Col. Itzik Fafer.
ANOTHER TIE TO OUR GALLANT ALLIES IS PROVIDED, LEHMAN SAYS

Pointing out that the resumption of communications between the Jewish press of America and Russia “will serve to further our common understanding of the tasks that lie ahead our battles against disease and hunger.” Mr. Lehman stated:

“I am happy and proud today to extend my congratulations to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency on the occasion of the resumption of communications between the Jewish press in America and in Russia.

“It should open valuable new avenues of contact and understanding between the press and the communities of the two nations. It will doubtless provide yet another tie to our gallant Allies and after victory it will serve to further our common understanding of the tasks that lie ahead in our battles against disease and hunger that we may together establish a just and durable peace.

“I congratulate the Russian nation on today becoming a member of the Inter-governmental Committee for Refugees. Together we will do all possible to aid the tortured Jewish refugees of the world.”
JUDGE PROSKAUER, RABBI WISE JOIN IN HAILING RUSSIA’S STEP

Judge Joseph M. Proskauer, president of the American Jewish Committee, and Dr. Stephen S. Wise, president of the American Jewish Congress and chairman of the executive committee of the World Jewish Congress, also hailed Russia’s joining the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees, in statements issued here.

“As president of the American Jewish Committee,” Judge Proskauer writes, “I express deep appreciation of the advance that has been made by the action of Russia in joining the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees. There is already a fine record of achievement by Russia in offering asylum and security to the victims of Nazi tyranny, and this new action is wholly in line with that beneficent record of achievement.”

Dr. Stephen S. Wise, in his statement said. “The decision of the Soviet Union to join the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees is an event of great importance, the news of which will be received with satisfaction by Jewish communities throughout the world.

“It is clear already that a very great responsibility will lie on the Inter-governmental Committee in the task of resettling the large numbers of people who have been displaced and uprooted by the Hitler barbarians. The first conference of UNRRA at Atlantic City was compelled to come to the conclusion that repatriation was a solution for only part of the gigantic refugee problem which has been created. It will fall to the Intergovernmental Committee to organize the resettlement of many hundreds of thousands in new lands where they will have an opportunity to rebuild their lives in peace and security. Such a task could only be undertaken by an intergovernmental agency commanding the support of the whole of the free world. The Soviet Union’s adhesion to the Committee will not only add new strength, but by completing the circle of great powers represented, provide the requisite authority.

“No great intergovernmental task can be completed, or should be attempted in the future without the full cooperation of Soviet Russia which has not only proved itself to be the heroic ally of the civilized world, but has revealed sources of constructive strength and the capacity for creative achievement which must we are all fighting.

“The Jewish people has an especial reason for welcoming this strengthening of the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees. We are encouraged to believe that henceforth some of the hopes we have cherished will be fulfilled and that the Committee so strengthened will now be given the opportunity to rise to the full height of the challenge with which it is presented.”

also recommended:
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... d_jews.php
Evidence for the Presence of “Gassed” Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 1
Thomas Kues
part2
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... jews_2.php
part3
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... part_3.php
and:
'1,900,000 Jews Evacuated by the Soviets' said Jew W. Zander
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8374
and:
Russia Helped 1,750,000 Jews to Escape Nazis, Says James N. Rosenberg
http://www.jta.org/1943/07/02/archive/r ... -rosenberg
and:
152,000 Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union who were evacuated to Tashkent (Uzbekistan) and then went to different localities in Uzbekistan in 1941-1942.
https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/hol ... uzbek.html
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2861
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Hektor » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:53 am)

cold beer wrote:
Hektor wrote:That three million figure they give isn't even remotely credible, EVEN if you accept the extermination narrative! Remember that Poland was divided and half of the territory fell under USSR occupation for almost two years. The bigger half of Jews would be at least in the end on the Soviet side of the demarcation line (I admit I'd need more demographic data to affirm this).
....

So they already moved Jews from elsewhere in Europe to the Western parts of Poland and Joseph Buehler complained to this. Note that he indicates that "final solution" was to remove Jews from other European countries to Russia. And I have not seen any sound, credible rebuttal of the Buehler-statement at the IMT in Nuremberg by Exterminationists. They evade the issue and use the usual innuendo tactics to distract from the fact that there is no Holocaust elephant in the room.


This testimony is very interesting, I haven't put much time or effort into the trial testimonies and probably should.
But I'm lost on your point as far as the numbers of jews are concerned.
By the time this meeting takes place Germany occupies all of Poland.
Although reasonable people assume that large numbers of jews successfully retreated east with the soviets out of German reach, my understanding is the other side either doesn't acknowledge this or counts those who retreated among the victims of mass shooting operations.
Which by itself should cause a problem because they can't die twice.
Please dumb down this for me...
How many jews of Poland are said to have died in camps by extermination or otherwise?
What makes that claim impossible?

As I said, I don't have exact figures, but I recall there being reports even by American Jewish organisations of Jews retreating or being moved eastwards within the USSR territory. I'd have to find those reports again.

As for not dying twice, Yad Vashem has several records on the same Person and counts each record as "Holocaust victim". So apparently Jews can die even more than twice.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Kingfisher » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:31 am)

borjastick wrote:Just how would people in Russia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Palestine, israel etc have contacted those on the other side of the world and iron curtain in such primitive times of communications?

By post. I had a Latvian friend whose parents received mail from Latvian family in the fifties. But, of course, this assumes that the recipients are still at their pre-war addresses, and that they had not also been deported or simply moved house. Or even emigrated to Israel or elsewhere. And that the Soviet censors allowed the letters through. We know that many on this side of the Iron Curtain lost touch with each other.

Nevertheless, we can't get out of this one that easily. My own gut feeling is that probably a high proportion of those deported did die from one cause or another, whether killed by Germans or Russians or simply victims of war, disease, exposure, exhaustion or starvation.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2861
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby Hektor » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:45 am)

Kingfisher wrote:
borjastick wrote:Just how would people in Russia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Palestine, israel etc have contacted those on the other side of the world and iron curtain in such primitive times of communications?

By post. I had a Latvian friend whose parents received mail from Latvian family in the fifties. But, of course, this assumes that the recipients are still at their pre-war addresses, and that they had not also been deported or simply moved house. Or even emigrated to Israel or elsewhere. And that the Soviet censors allowed the letters through. We know that many on this side of the Iron Curtain lost touch with each other.
The "iron curtain" is something that is left out the equation by many. It's nevertheless an important factor, since it broke down communication between friends and families. Of course it also took care of hindering any research in the matter of demographical changes as well as forensic investigations.

Kingfisher wrote:
borjastick wrote:Nevertheless, we can't get out of this one that easily. My own gut feeling is that probably a high proportion of those deported did die from one cause or another, whether killed by Germans or Russians or simply victims of war, disease, exposure, exhaustion or starvation.

That sentiment was shared by the authors of this brochure:
But the present war has witnessed a radical change in the position of these once-favored communities. At the beginning of the Nazi occupation of Western Europe the treatment of the native Jews was relatively milder than that accorded Jews in the East. The first Jews to be deported were the immigrants from Eastern Europe, Only in 1942 did the wholesale shipment of native Jews to Other parts begin. Since then large numbers of Jews have been deported. It is estimated that only 200*000 Jews remained in France in 1943; 8,000 in Belgium; 60,000 in the Netherlands; and from Luxembourg all Jews are reported to have been removed. Thus far, only the Italian Jews have been spared the Ordeal of deportation to the East. Those hapless Jews who have survived the experience of deportation have been concentrated in the Eastern regions of Nazi-occupied Poland and the occupied territories of the U.S.S.R.

It is clear therefore that the reconstruction of Jewish life in the countries of Western Europe will depend primarily on the following factors: (1) the extent of continued deportations; (2) the ability of the deported Jews to survive their present ordeal ; (3) the desire of the deported Jews and refugees to return to their former homelands; (4) the provisions for speedy repatriation; and (5) the possibilities of economic adjustment in these countries. ....

In contrast to Western Europe, the East European region — including Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Roumania, Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia — was for centuries the center o f Jewish population in the world and remained a major center even after the rise of the large communities overseas. The number of Jews in this region, as we have seen, has been drastically reduced by Nazi extermination and deportation, although many Jews here as well as in both Polish and Soviet White Russia and Ukraine have been fortunate in escaping to the Russian interior. While deportation does not necessarily mean extermination, since many of the deportees are drafted for slave labor and others are permitted to live as best they can, it is nevertheless clear that unless victory comes very soon the Jewish population in these regions will emerge radically reduced in numbers. The only Axis country in this area where the position of Jews is comparatively bearable is Hungary, whose Jewish population increased greatly by the acquisition of Czechoslovak and Roumanian territories, and where deportation has been practiced only on a small scale.

In a different category arc the prospective Jewish emigrants living in the Soviet Union. While Jews in the U-S.S.R. enjoy complete political and economic equality many because of religious, ideological and family reasons, would choose to leave, if given the opportunity. The most urgent plight of all is that of the Jewish refugees from Poland who, following their refusal to accept Soviet citizenship, were deported in 1940 to Asia from the Sovietoccupied Polish territories. {A paradoxical result was that they were spared Nazi occupation.) An important reason for their refusal was the fear that after adopting Soviet citizenship they would never be able to rejoin their families, left behind under Nazi occupation, in Palestine or elsewhere overseas; the Soviet union does not, except rarely permit emigration. In spite of their deportation, they are considered Soviet citizens. Their situation is now precarious, for social work in the Soviet Union, particularly in wartime, is not stressed. Similarly complicated is the problem of many Jews formerly living in the Soviet-incorporated areas of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bessarabia and Bukovina.

https://archive.org/details/ReliefRecon ... hCommittee

So we can see that the American Jewish Committee talks of Jews being deported eastward of the demarcation line through interbellum Poland established between German and Soviet-occupied territory. And that Jews have been removed from formerly Soviet-occupied territories conquered by the Axis. We also can learn that Jewish organisations in the US were relatively well informed on what happened in Europe and the USSR at the time, although they may of course have embellished their accounts. It's also easy to see why and that they would have embellished their accounts even further with horror-stories for propagandistic reasons.

Also note the references to "citizenship" being made.

avatar
cold beer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby cold beer » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:57 am)

Hannover wrote:The piece below is quite revealing as it admits that countless Jews entered the USSR.
Also see important links that follow.

- Hannover

This is too easy.

German Lauds Russia for Joining Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees
http://www.jta.org/1944/02/23/archive/g ... r-refugees

February 23, 1944

NEW YORK (Feb. 22)

Herbert H. Lehman, Director General of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration, today issued a statement lauding the decision of the Russian Government to join the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees.

The statement was made in connection with the announcement that an arrangement has been reached between the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and the Jewish press in Moscow, under which Jewish publications in Russia will, for the first time since the Soviet Revolution, receive JTA cables from the United States, Palestine and other countries depicting Jewish life there. This is the first time that any publication in the U.S.S.R. has been permitted to receive cabled news directly from any foreign news agency.

Russia’s decision to join the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees marks the country’s entrance into the international effort to alleviate the plight of refugees during and after the war. At the time when the Intergovernmental Committee was established at the Evian Conference in 1938, the Soviet Union was not invited to participate. Since the outbreak of the war hundreds of thousands of Jews from Poland, Rumania and the Baltic countries have been given shelter in the U.S.S.R., and many of them were permitted to pass through Russia en route to the United States and to Palestine.

The arrangement under which Jewish Telegraphic Agency news will be cabled to Jewish publications in Russia is a result of the increased interest on the part of Jews in Russia in Jewish life and achievements in other countries. This interest was indicated several months ago when a Jewish cultural delegation was sent to the United States and England, composed of Prof. Solomon Mikhoels and Col. Itzik Fafer.
ANOTHER TIE TO OUR GALLANT ALLIES IS PROVIDED, LEHMAN SAYS

Pointing out that the resumption of communications between the Jewish press of America and Russia “will serve to further our common understanding of the tasks that lie ahead our battles against disease and hunger.” Mr. Lehman stated:

“I am happy and proud today to extend my congratulations to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency on the occasion of the resumption of communications between the Jewish press in America and in Russia.

“It should open valuable new avenues of contact and understanding between the press and the communities of the two nations. It will doubtless provide yet another tie to our gallant Allies and after victory it will serve to further our common understanding of the tasks that lie ahead in our battles against disease and hunger that we may together establish a just and durable peace.

“I congratulate the Russian nation on today becoming a member of the Inter-governmental Committee for Refugees. Together we will do all possible to aid the tortured Jewish refugees of the world.”
JUDGE PROSKAUER, RABBI WISE JOIN IN HAILING RUSSIA’S STEP

Judge Joseph M. Proskauer, president of the American Jewish Committee, and Dr. Stephen S. Wise, president of the American Jewish Congress and chairman of the executive committee of the World Jewish Congress, also hailed Russia’s joining the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees, in statements issued here.

“As president of the American Jewish Committee,” Judge Proskauer writes, “I express deep appreciation of the advance that has been made by the action of Russia in joining the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees. There is already a fine record of achievement by Russia in offering asylum and security to the victims of Nazi tyranny, and this new action is wholly in line with that beneficent record of achievement.”

Dr. Stephen S. Wise, in his statement said. “The decision of the Soviet Union to join the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees is an event of great importance, the news of which will be received with satisfaction by Jewish communities throughout the world.

“It is clear already that a very great responsibility will lie on the Inter-governmental Committee in the task of resettling the large numbers of people who have been displaced and uprooted by the Hitler barbarians. The first conference of UNRRA at Atlantic City was compelled to come to the conclusion that repatriation was a solution for only part of the gigantic refugee problem which has been created. It will fall to the Intergovernmental Committee to organize the resettlement of many hundreds of thousands in new lands where they will have an opportunity to rebuild their lives in peace and security. Such a task could only be undertaken by an intergovernmental agency commanding the support of the whole of the free world. The Soviet Union’s adhesion to the Committee will not only add new strength, but by completing the circle of great powers represented, provide the requisite authority.

“No great intergovernmental task can be completed, or should be attempted in the future without the full cooperation of Soviet Russia which has not only proved itself to be the heroic ally of the civilized world, but has revealed sources of constructive strength and the capacity for creative achievement which must we are all fighting.

“The Jewish people has an especial reason for welcoming this strengthening of the Intergovernmental Committee for Refugees. We are encouraged to believe that henceforth some of the hopes we have cherished will be fulfilled and that the Committee so strengthened will now be given the opportunity to rise to the full height of the challenge with which it is presented.”

also recommended:
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... d_jews.php
Evidence for the Presence of “Gassed” Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 1
Thomas Kues
part2
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... jews_2.php
part3
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... part_3.php
and:
'1,900,000 Jews Evacuated by the Soviets' said Jew W. Zander
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8374
and:
Russia Helped 1,750,000 Jews to Escape Nazis, Says James N. Rosenberg
http://www.jta.org/1943/07/02/archive/r ... -rosenberg
and:
152,000 Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union who were evacuated to Tashkent (Uzbekistan) and then went to different localities in Uzbekistan in 1941-1942.
https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/hol ... uzbek.html


I've been tied up for a couple days, thank you for posting these links.
That is a lot of material to go through and digest, I'm sure I'll be looking for clarification when get to that point.
To a certain extent I'm struggling to articulate what I'm striving for.
When I see revisionists claim that there weren't enough jews within the territories occupied by the Germans, I want to pin down what the claim relies on and how incontestable it is, without knowing what form that's going to come in.
If it's an exceedingly strong case that leaves exterminations jumping through hoops in order to shoehorn their 6 million claim then it's something I want to learn.

avatar
cold beer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: Dual citizenship of Jews as circumstantial evidence for East emigration?

Postby cold beer » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:15 am)

Hektor wrote:
cold beer wrote:
Hektor wrote:That three million figure they give isn't even remotely credible, EVEN if you accept the extermination narrative! Remember that Poland was divided and half of the territory fell under USSR occupation for almost two years. The bigger half of Jews would be at least in the end on the Soviet side of the demarcation line (I admit I'd need more demographic data to affirm this).
....

So they already moved Jews from elsewhere in Europe to the Western parts of Poland and Joseph Buehler complained to this. Note that he indicates that "final solution" was to remove Jews from other European countries to Russia. And I have not seen any sound, credible rebuttal of the Buehler-statement at the IMT in Nuremberg by Exterminationists. They evade the issue and use the usual innuendo tactics to distract from the fact that there is no Holocaust elephant in the room.


This testimony is very interesting, I haven't put much time or effort into the trial testimonies and probably should.
But I'm lost on your point as far as the numbers of jews are concerned.
By the time this meeting takes place Germany occupies all of Poland.
Although reasonable people assume that large numbers of jews successfully retreated east with the soviets out of German reach, my understanding is the other side either doesn't acknowledge this or counts those who retreated among the victims of mass shooting operations.
Which by itself should cause a problem because they can't die twice.
Please dumb down this for me...
How many jews of Poland are said to have died in camps by extermination or otherwise?
What makes that claim impossible?

As I said, I don't have exact figures, but I recall there being reports even by American Jewish organisations of Jews retreating or being moved eastwards within the USSR territory. I'd have to find those reports again.

As for not dying twice, Yad Vashem has several records on the same Person and counts each record as "Holocaust victim". So apparently Jews can die even more than twice.


One of the points to be made with these reports is that the numbers of jews that were moved out of harms way can't possibly be taken at face value. They have every motivation to under report the numbers.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 2 guests