German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

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German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:46 pm)

The latest German Federal election is next Sunday, September 24th, 2017. Angela Merkel will almost certainly have another four-year term as Chancellor.

Six parties are likely to enter the new Bundestag. The 'Center' bloc (Merkel's CDU; SPD), which is the 2013-to-Present governing coalition, will most likely to continue to govern. The only other possible coalitions, if polls are right, are ideologically incoherent or ruled-out from the outset (i.e., the CDU refuses to work with the AfD).

Four other parties will all have something around 10% each: The 'Right' will consist of the FDP (free-market) and AfD (widely seen as populist-nationalist). The opposition 'Left' will be the Greens and the neocommunist Linke party.

Definitely the biggest story of the past two years in German politics is the emergence, following the Migrant Crisis, of the AfD, which has taken away a large share of Merkel's core voter base and energized some nonvoters; it looks like 15% of seats, or near that, in the next Bundestag is possible for AfD.

________________________________

Q17. "The memory of the genocide of European Jews should continue to be a central part of German culture" [Der Völkermord an den europäischen Juden soll weiterhin zentraler Bestandteil der deutschen Erinnerungskultur sein.]

wahl o mat holocaust.png
wahl o mat holocaust.png (116.33 KiB) Viewed 1892 times

This question is from the website Wahl-O-Mat, which collects the views of all of Germany's many parties (via surveys sent to party leaders) and offers a 38-question test on a range of issues to the public. The test has a degree of prominence in German politics. In the 2013 federal election campaign, thirteen million Germans took the test.

The Spiegel Magazine just conducted an interview with new FDP leader Christian Lindner (b. 1979), who will lead that party delegation and its expected ~10% of seats in the new Bundestag. The Spiegel comments cynically that AfD was Herr Lindner's fourth-highest result on the test (see attachment) and that his result is not 100% FDP. Lindner is heard, as he is taking the Wahl-o-Mat test with the Spiegel camera crew, upon coming to Q17, derisively saying that he only knows one party that would not say "Yes" to keeping the Holocaust as the central part of German culture.

spiegel lindner.png
spiegel lindner.png (955.72 KiB) Viewed 1892 times

Several of Wahl-o-Mat's questions allude or imply the importance of the Holocaust, but Q17 hits it directly. This has high relevance to a question I have posed before ("How much support is there in Germany for abolishing "Holocaust Enforcement" laws?"), the status of the Holocaust in German politics.

So what do the various German parties say on this simple, straightforward question?

________________________________________________

Q. Should the memory of the genocide of European Jews continue to be a central part of German culture?

Parties Set to Enter New Bundestag (6 parties: 6 'Yes' responses)
Yes: CDU / Christian Democratic Party
Yes: SPD / Social Democratic Party
Yes: Die Linke / The Left (neoCommunist and East German ruling party successor)
Yes: Green Party
Yes: FDP (Free Democratic Party) [Free-Market]
Yes: AfD / Alternative for Germany

Minor Parties (26 parties: 19 'Yes' votes, 5 'Neutral' votes, 2 'No' votes)
Yes: Pirate Party
No: National-Democratic Party of Germany (NPD)
Yes: Free Voter Party (Freie Wähler)
Yes: Party for the Protection of the Environment and Animals (acronym: Tierschutzpartei)
Yes: Ecological Democratic Party (acronym: ÖDP)
Yes: Party for Labor, Law, Protection of Animals, Encouragement of an Elite, and Basic Democracy (acronym: PARTEI)
Yes: Bavarian Party (Bayernpartei)
Yes: Volksabstimmung
Neutral: Party of Reason (Partei der Vernunft)
Yes: Marxist-Leninist Party of Germany
Yes: Movement for the Rights of Citizens and Solidarity (BüSo)
Yes: Socialist Equality Party (SGP)
No: The Right (Die Rechte)
Neutral: Alliance of German Democrats (Allianz Deutscher Demokraten)
Yes: Alliance for the Protection of Animals
Yes: Berg-Party
Yes: The Alliance for Basic Income
Yes: Democracy in Movement
Yes: The German Communist Party (DKP)
Neutral: Deutsche Mitte
Yes: The Gray Party
Yes: "The Urban Party, a Hip-Hop Party"
Neutral: Human World (Menschliche Welt)
Yes: Party of Humanists
Neutral: The Party for Health Research (Partei für Gesundheitsforschung)
Yes: Party for Change, Vegetarianism, and Veganism
__________________________________________

Of 32 parties, only two dare say 'No,' and only one of those is prominent -- the NPD, which has been hovering on the brink of a full constitutional ban for years (occasional attempts since the early 2000s have failed on technicalities). Even the AfD says 'Yes.'

So the Holocaust is hegemonic in German politics today, at least officially and on the surface, but we already know that. This was not true, in this hegemonic way, in the past. From the 1950s through the 1980s, there were always reasoned voices in Germany on this issue of the Holocaust (see, e.g., comments by SPD politician Egon Bahr I cite here. I think that by the 1990s these voices were increasingly marginalized and silenced, and that is the German political culture that still exists.



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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Metal Murphy » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:13 pm)

Sad such a noble people continue to labor under such delusions.

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Hektor » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:21 pm)

Sannhet wrote:......
Of 32 parties, only two dare say 'No,' and only one of those is prominent -- the NPD, which has been hovering on the brink of a full constitutional ban for years (occasional attempts since the early 2000s have failed on technicalities). Even the AfD says 'Yes.'

So the Holocaust is hegemonic in German politics today, at least officially and on the surface, but we already know that. This was not true, in this hegemonic way, in the past. From the 1950s through the 1980s, there were always reasoned voices in Germany on this issue of the Holocaust (see, e.g., comments by SPD politician Egon Bahr I cite here. I think that by the 1990s these voices were increasingly marginalized and silenced, and that is the German political culture that still exists.


Your assessment that the Holocaust is hegemonic since the 1980s is corroborated by the literature diagram we drew with google ngram a while ago.
Interesting what you say about Egon Bahr. When I look through German magazines I'd say that between 1949 and the 1970s Germany was marked by "Wiederaufbau", WW2 and NS were taboo subjects, for obvious reasons since there was some real trauma present with the older generation. From the 70s onward Holocaust became obligatory daily bread on the movie. Probably since the soap opera "Holocaust" was shown on TV. It was actually a third class drama(I watched it from Youtube), but still had its emotional effects on many. Holocaust related stuff was in the news, since there were trials and journalists penned excerpts from the testimony. Most famous to us was the infamous Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt, which starred several prominent Communists from the DDR as 'witnesses'. Bear in mind that during the same time the 68's generation of academics to be was in its formative years as well. That's the people that became teachers and professors during the 1970s and 1980s. They mostly didn't experience the war and I doubt their parents didn't tell them too much either (trauma). So they were receptive for information from the media, which may have fueled debates and their infantile rebellion further.

The AfD says "Yes", but this isn't a non-negotiable "Yes" from them. There is quite some of their politicians that are critical of the "Remembrance-Culture" in Germany, which is fixated on Hitler, Holocaust and WW2. None of the "denies the Holocaust" of course, which would lead to their immediate arrest anyway. My expectation is however that they could demand an end to the persecution of Revisionists among other things that will lead to an unfreezing of the German mind. We'll see, until now it doesn't look like they cuck too much, but there is a risk of the AfD turning into a CDU-lite. A good reason for that not too happen is the growing problems Germans will underfind with migrants.

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Rmbrmb21 » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:32 pm)

Funny how everyone says that Hitler aimed for a 1000 year Reich. It seems holocaustianity will be what lasts 1000 years+. Central Europeans will indefinitely be the leaders in Gentile holocaustianity promotion. I'm sorry, but if leaders don't step up and go all out in decrying the false agenda that has held Germany prisoner for so long, they will remain prisoners forever. From this post, doesn't seem like anyone is going to do that even though they're in the prime position to do so. I sometimes see people post that German politicians stay quiet but have said things that allude to them not being believers. I would be interested in finding out more about that if anyone can direct me.

I do take some small comfort in us being allowed to debate the holocaust on these forums. I'm guessing most on the English forums are from the UK, US, Australia or Canada. However, with the recent crack down on internet freedom in these countries, holocaust truth will never be mainstream anywhere at this rate imo. Sure, people may question it or just disbelieve it totally, but they won't dare do anything about it. Breaking the circle seems just about impossible to me.

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Breker » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:16 pm)

Rmbrmb21 wrote:Funny how everyone says that Hitler aimed for a 1000 year Reich. It seems holocaustianity will be what lasts 1000 years+.

Not a chance, me thinks. It's been 72 years since WWII ended and what do we see?
Here we sit, the ridiculous "6,000,000" under siege, is what.
What do we think all this leftist angst, supremacist Jew media panic, Soros funded 'antifa', anti-Trump hysteria, and the faked Nazi episode in Charlotteville is all about?
It's 100% desperation, effective theatre only in the very short term.
The masses are stirring and sooner or later the clearly unsupportable "Holocaust" lies will be widely challenged. It simply is too weak. It's only held together by force, and that will never last "1000 years".
The gatekeepers can see the writing on the wall.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:44 pm)

Hektor wrote:Interesting what you say about Egon Bahr. When I look through German magazines I'd say that between 1949 and the 1970s Germany was marked by "Wiederaufbau", WW2 and NS were taboo subjects

This seems right in general. But the taboo against any hint of Holocaust Revisionism is much stronger today than the soft taboo to which you refer.

I believe there was a significant wing of West German conservative politics, through the late 1980s at least, that viewed the NS-period history through an essentially neutral historical lens (and, occasionally, even through a cautiously pro-German one). I see this as beginning in the mid 1950s. It was then that when West Germany began to enter the postwar Western mainstream in earnest (e.g., West Germany entered NATO in May 1955) and thus this kind of politics and discourse was again 'allowed.'

This wing of conservative thought in West Germany, strong through the late 1980s, faded out in the 1990s and was gone by the 2000s as its core advocates began dying or slipping into elderly status and political silence. In its time, this wing of German politics was a strong, if not necessarily dominant (I doubt Konrad Adenauer himself, certainly an opponent of the NS Regime, had much real sympathy for this 'wing,' as Adenauer rightly saw his own political success as only possible through anti-Nazism; just as the Left did later and still does).

This wing of German conservatism was peopled by those who lived through the NS era and knew that despite its many faults it was simply not the monstrous death-machine that Hollywood has, by now, trained us all to believe it was. These men like Ernst Nolte were self-consciously reacting against the universally negative (and often histrionically negative) way that the NS period was viewed by the post-1968 Far-Left. That 'far Left' view is the standard view of everyone (officially) today, but it was not always.

Consider the so-called Historikerstreit of the late 1980s, in which figures of the conservative-Right such as Dr. Ernst Nolte (1923-2016), Dr. Andreas Hillgruber (1925-1989), Joachim Fest (1926-2006), and Dr. Michael Stürmer (1938-) -- all of whom I think had ties to the CDU -- argued persuasively in Germany's top newspapers-of-record that Germans need not be burdened by a never-ending, unique historical shame over the events of that era. Theirs was a neutralist point of view, and a sometimes quasi-revisionist one. Some of their writings at the time, if carefully examined, may actually be borderline jailable offenses today under Holocaust Enforcement laws (not yet in force in the 1980s). These were respected and important academics with sterling reputations publishing in prestigious media (we may forget how important that was in the pre-Internet 1980s).

_______________________________________

Consider that one of the AfD's "Spitzenkandidaten" for the 2017 Bundestag election is Alexander Gauland (b. 1941 in Chemnitz; in West Germany from 1959), a CDU figure for forty years (1973-2013), around half of those years in the era I refer to here, when a "historically-neutral" wing of the CDU existed. He is now going to enter the Bundestag as the co-head of the AfD ticket.(See Gauland's TV advertisement [from 0:22] in which he condemns Angela Merkel's "illegal opening of the borders.")

We may also recall the case of AfD figure Björn Höcke (1972-), of the AfD's "völkisch wing," and a regional leader of the party in Thuringia. Since the AfD's rise began in late 2015 (with the Migrant Crisis), Höcke inspired crowds in eastern Germany with speeches mirroring Ernst-Nolte-circa-1986 rhetoric. Hocke criticized the enormous Holocaust Memorial in Berlin and German (and other) media were enraged at this heresy, universally condemning Hocke as a dangerous maniac who probably ought to be in prison. I recall the New York Times depicting him as a raving Nazi.

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German political parties' Views on Holocaust Issue; a 'Holocaust Continuum' in German Politics

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 1 month ago (Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:50 pm)

Hektor wrote:The AfD says "Yes", but this isn't a non-negotiable "Yes" from them. There is quite some of their politicians that are critical of the "Remembrance-Culture" in Germany, which is fixated on Hitler, Holocaust and WW2. None of the "denies the Holocaust" of course, which would lead to their immediate arrest anyway. My expectation is however that they could demand an end to the persecution of Revisionists among other things that will lead to an unfreezing of the German mind.

It is useful to see this issue, as you propose, within a range of possible views.

The really hardline advocates of the Holocaust-enforcement, so-called "remembrance culture" are on the Hard Left, of course. The Holocaust is perhaps the German Left (and general Western Left?)'s main source of political legitimacy.

The 'Holocaust-pushing' German Left today can be said to consist of what remains of the old-line ideological left-wing of the SPD (much less so much Gerhard Schroeder's neoliberal centrist wing and certain other old-line workingman elements that remain in the SPD), the Green Party (Joschka Fischer was and is a major Holocaust-Pusher) perhaps minus its so-called 'Black Green' wing (a Lower Saxony politician who defected from the Green Party to the CDU in August 2017 seems to have coined this term to refer to conservative Greens; she saw the Greens as being too leftist), and (especially) die Linke's party apparatus, but not their now-increasingly-elderly east-German voter base. The 'pro-Holocaust' majority within the SPD (let's assume it is two-thirds), the Green bloc, and the Linke bloc, all summed together will, according to polls, only have around 35% of Bundestag seats. Good news for revisionism?

The CDU, I would argue, retains what we may call an 'Ernst Nolte Wing,' which is today nearly voiceless; large but tacit. Some of those from this CDU 'Ernst Nolte Wing' who are most ideological on this point have now defected to the AfD. Members of the new Bundestag sympathetic to Holocaust Revisionism may include large numbers of AfD people and some minority in the CDU. If it is half of AfD delegation and one-fifth of CDU delegation, we have something near 15% of seats occupied by this reconstituted 'Nolte Wing,' half of whom are now AfD.

So my little mental experiment can yield this way to conceptualize the likely election result:

Aggressive Holocaust-Pushers (overt): 35% of seats
Opponents of Holocaust Cult-ism (tacit): 15% of seats (of whom only a minority will speak out)
Neutrals and those passively obedient to 'Big H.' cultural hegemony: 50%


I might also propose a continuum of beliefs on Holocaustism to be something like this (numbers all based on my own impressions from observation, and subject to dispute):

__________________________________________________________
Should the Holocaust be Central to German Identity?
Absolute 'Yes' = 1
Neutral = 50
Absolute 'No' = 100

[Right]
(80-100 : Note, Germans with views in this zone risk jail time if they voice them)
65 : AfD Voters
45 : AfD Party Leadership
40 : CDU Voters
20 : CDU Party Leadership
30?: FDP

[Left]
25 : SPD Voters
15 : SPD Party Leadership
10 : The mainstream Green Left
30 : The 'Black Greens,' the conservative minority within the Green Party (e.g. Winfried Kretschmann)
40?: Older Linke Voters in East Germany
5 : Linke Voters in West Germany
1 : Linke Party Leadership
__________________________________________________________

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 1 month ago (Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:37 am)

Breker wrote:[The Holocaust] is only held together by force, and that will never last "1000 years".

Some talk of growing anti-Holocaust (i.e., revisionist) sentiment in Germany, but if this is the case it does seem inevitably tied to the success of the AfD for the time being.

A few dozen polls in the past months predict that the AfD will win somewhere between 7-13% of seats next Sunday, with recent polls suggesting a figure above 10%. The AfD leadership thinks the party can outperform the polls and, in their best-case 'dream' scenario, narrowly edge out a fading SPD to gain second place.

The AfD Dream-Result would be:

[% of Seats]
34% CDU
18% AfD
17.9% SPD
10% FDP
10% Green
10% Linke

For practical purposes, the above would still mean a CDU-SPD centrist majority (here, 51.9%), and continued rule as before under Merkel with a CDU-SPD 'grand coalition,' but the political shock of an AfD as second-biggest party would be major. Such a result would presumably deal a major blow to the entire Holocaust Enforcement Apparatus.

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German parties with dissenting views on 'Holocaust Enforcement,' Campaign ad analysis

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 1 month ago (Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:17 am)

Sannhet wrote:Q. Should the memory of the genocide of European Jews continue to be a central part of German culture?
[....]
No: National-Democratic Party of Germany (NPD)
No: The Right (Die Rechte)
Neutral: Party of Reason (Partei der Vernunft)
Neutral: Deutsche Mitte
Neutral: Alliance of German Democrats (Allianz Deutscher Demokraten)
Neutral: Human World (Menschliche Welt)
Neutral: The Party for Health Research (Partei für Gesundheitsforschung)

I'd like to look more closely at these seven (small) parties, who had the courage to say either 'No' or 'Neutral' to Holocaust Enforcement.

In Germany, political campaigning is to a great extent limited by law and parties are allowed to make only one central television commercial (Wahlwerbespot), 90 seconds in length, some weeks before the election. Here are the Wahlwerbespots for these parties, with my comments on each party's possible motivations for dissenting from the Holocaust Party Line (i.e., giving a strong "Yes" to the above question).

____________________________________________

NPD:

Comment: This is actually a cleverly-made metaphorical ad that alludes, I think, quite directly, to the Bundesrepublik's strict enforcement of Holocaust Laws since the 1990s, under both the CDU-led governments and the SPD-Green coalition of 1998-2005. It demands freedom of expression. For whom? I think the implication is for Zundel (r.i.p.), Stolz, Mahler, Rudolf, and many others.

The video names Heiko Maas (b. 1966; SPD; Minister of Justice under Merkel's CDU-SPD coalition since late 2013) as the red-garbed Grand Inquisitor who seeks to burn a man, who, we learn by the video's end, is Frank Franz (b. 1978; Head of the NPD since late 2014). This is an allusion to the failed attempt, under Maas (through Jan. 2017), to ban the NPD.

Here is a transcription and translation by me (which may be imperfect as I am not a native German speaker):
[A scene in the forest at daylight in what appears to be Medieval times. A man is tied to a stake labeled 'NPD,' with a large pile of wood at his feet. An unseen figure clutches a torch in the foreground. A crowd of villagers assembled and is addressed:] "Hear Ye! Hear Ye! The proclamation of Grand-Inquisitor Heiko Maas!" [Camera moves to a man in red robes and a red cap of the style of a medieval church official. The man wears thick modern-style glasses. The red-robed man speaks, waving his hands ostentatiously:] "This condemned man has confessed to his own sins! He demands 'border controls'! He declares that Germany is not an Immigration State! He demands freedom of expression for patriots! He does not want Islam and criminal foreigners to rule Germany! These subversive activities..." [The townspeople begin grumbling] [Townspeople interrupt the red-robed man, yelling out variously at the red-robed man:] "You are a Traitor to the People [Volksverräter]!" "Get outta here!" "Ridiculous!" [The red-robed man looks flustered. He begins to rebuke the people, wagging his finger:] "He who would label us democrats as 'Traitors to the People [Volksverräter],' is making use of rhetoric from the very worst era in all our history--!" [The red-robed man is hit in the face with a cabbage of lettuce thrown by a townswoman. He cuts off this diatribe in mid-sentence. The townspeople begin to pelt the red-robed man and his entourage with food. They retreat and are chased away. A man confronts the torch-bearer, seizes the torch, and tosses it into the distance.] [Voiceover:] "The NPD will not be silenced! No one can forbid us from speaking the truth." [The bound man is released by the townspeople.] [Voiceover continues:] "We want freedom of expression and we defend our homeland against mass immigration and Islamist terror. [The camera now reveals that the voiceover belongs to Frank Franz:] "All of you, too, use your votes to help us keep this country, today and tomorrow, a free and German land." [The townspeople cheer] [The screen shows the slogan 'Defend the Homeland' and 'NPD' as townspeople's cheers are still heard. Fade to black.]

Die Rechte:

Comment: This seems to be a harder-line NPD and a party of the street activists of the so-called Radical Right. It contains only scenes of young males in street demonstrations chanting nationalist slogans. It ends with a blonde male activist saying: "German men! Fight to make your land free again." This party has no pretensions that it will have any electoral success. The video has nothing to say about the key issue of 'Holocaust Politics,' as the NPD's does.

Allianz Deutscher Demokraten:

Comment: Based on this campaign ad, this would appear to be a strange single-issue party that demands 9,000 Euros to every German who has purchased a Volkswagen automobile as a penalty for VW's 'deceptions' (in the so-called DieselGate scandal). The video talks about nothing else except this.

One must go to Wikipedia to read up on this party and its possible reason for inclusion in this list of possible Holocaust Dissidents. The party is self-consciously a Turkish-Islamic party in Germany and was founded in 2016 in reaction, it says, to the Bundestag passing a resolution recognizing the Armenian Genocide. The party is apparently openly aligned with Erdogan's party in Turkey. It got 13,000 votes in the North-Rhine-Westphalia state election of May 2017.

Anyway, as for 'Holocaust Politics,' this odd Turkish-nationalist-party-in-Germany may be neutral on the issue because of (1) its Islamic character, (2) its sensitivity to politicized 'genocides' from the past. As we know, many Turks dispute that there was a genocide of the Armenians.

Deutsche Mitte:

Comment: This seems to be a small party of a kind of nationalist, non-interventionist, libertarian Old Right, founded in 2013 and apparently energized in fall 2015 with the Migrant Crisis. The party is apparently criticized for being conspiracy-theory-oriented. The campaign video warns of the global elite's plans for wars against various countries and calls for good relations with Russia. Judging their campaign video at face value, I think 'Holocaust Politics' plays into it as follows: The Holocaust justifies foreign military adventures as long as we say, "Well, [Saddam Hussein] is the next Hitler who wants to commit genocide, just like Hitler did to the Jews." Insert any name into the brackets, and it always seems to work. For a strong anti-war party of the dissident Right, the Holocaust must be desacralized to undermine the warmongers. The video ends with the spokesman calling for close ties to the Assad regime in Syria, and ending the war, so that Syria can re-accept its refugees.

Menschliche Welt:

Comment:This is apparently a New Age, eastern (Buddhist) oriented party that calls for world peace and the usual things. I do not know why they answered 'Neutral' on the Holocaust Question.

The Party for Health Research:

Comment: This is a pure single issue party calling for more funding and things for research into possible cures for diseases, especially old-age-related diseases. I do not know why they answered 'Neutral' on the Holocaust Question.

Party of Reason:
[No campaign video was created or it was not posted to Youtube]
Comment: This is apparently a libertarian party, perhaps a kind of dissident and fringe version of the FDP. I am not sure why they would answer 'Neutral' to the Holocaust Question, but if they are true libertarian free-thinkers, especially a s they have zero chance for power, they can stay loyal to freethinking principles.

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AfD could get as high as 17% of seats and 100 Bundestag members: How many oppose the Holocaust Machine?

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 4 weeks ago (Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:46 pm)

The election is finally here. Polls open in 27 hours as of this writing.

In the past few days, the AfD has been consistently polling 10-13% in these final polls before the vote.

Previous opinion polling at the state level suggests the the AfD overperforms the polling by several points, resulting in actual vote totals 1.3x to 1.4x what polling suggests, i.e. more than one-in-four AfD voters lie to the pollster (they generally seem to say CDU and vote AfD, it seems). This was the case in several Landtag (regional) elections in 2016: (1) Saxony-Anhalt in the east, where the AfD finished with 24.3% of the vote after consistently polling 17-19% in the two months prior to the election (1.35x the midline expectation from polling); (2) Baden-Württemberg in the south, where the AfD got 15.1% after polling 9-13% (1.37x the midline expectation from polling); (3) Rhineland-Palatinate in the west, where the AfD finished with 12.6% of the vote after polling 8-11% in the two months before the election (1.33x the midline expectation from polling).

If this 'Shy AfD Supporter' effect occurs in the national Bundestag election this Sunday, it would mean that the AfD could get 15-16% of the total vote and, when the dust settles, potentially have 17% of the seats in the Bundestag (after the exclusion of the minor parties' votes due to the "5%-Hurdle"). If so, the AfD-Fraktion could number something around a hundred men and women (the current Bundestag has 630 members and the new one will have some similar number).

So let's say this analysis is right and the AfD has 100 members in the new Bundestag. The AfD will absolutely not be in the government, and absolutely will be the subject of much media demonization. Yet, it will be in the Bundestag, a position of prestige "no matter how you slice it." The question is how many of these hundred-or-so AfDers are honest opponents of the Holocaust Machine: in the privacy of their own minds (likely quite a few)? Willing to speak out publicly, to call for the repeal of Holocaust Enforcement laws (likely many fewer, if any)? Will any good for the cause of Historical Truth on this Holocaust matter come from the AfD's storming into the Bundestag in September 2017?


_______________________________________________________

Final Polls (released September 21 and 22, 2017)

[Center] Sum: 55%-59%
34-37% CDU/CSU, center-right, Merkel's party. (Theoretically, the CSU of Bavaria is an independent party, separate from the larger CDU. Some might include the CSU under the 'Right' bloc below. The CSU has 8.9% of seats in the 2013-2017 Bundestag; the CDU has 40.2%.)
21-22% SPD, center-left, Merkel's governing partner for most of her 12 years as Kanzlerin so far.

[Right] Sum: 19%-24%
9-11% FDP, a free-market liberal party. (Some might include this in the 'Center' bloc above.)
10-13% AfD, a dissident party that has taken away much of the CDU's right and much of Germany's quasi-nationalist energies since its sudden rise after the Migrant Crisis of 2015-2016.

[Left] Sum: 15%-19%
8.5%-11% Die Linke (The Left), a neoCommunist, 'far Left' party with roots in the East German ruling apparatus and the remnants of West German '60s-'70s left-wing radicalism. This party is rather full of "Germans-are-the-Problem" Holocaust Pushers.
7-8% Greens, a party of the urban, urbane, multicultural left.

Note: Minor parties will get about 5%, according to polling. Because all parties who get less than 5% are excluded from the Bundestag, each of the above six parties' vote percentages can be 'bumped up' a little to get the final share of seats.

_______________________________________________________

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International Auschwitz Committee warns Germans against a vote for the 'anti-Semitic, haters of democracy' of the AfD

Postby Sannhet » 1 year 4 weeks ago (Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:26 pm)

The Holocaust Enforcement apparatus is worried...

Auschwitz Committee Warns Against the AfD in Bundestag
German Federal Election 2017 / 22nd September 2017 / [Die Welt newspaper]

_________________________________________

Opinion pollsters say the AfD is certain to enter the Bundestag, to the horror of the International Auschwitz Committee. With the AfD's entrance into parliament will come an "inhuman chill."

_________________________________________

The International Auschwitz Committee is appalled at the expected entrance by the AfD into the Bundestag and has spoken out on the matter. "With their election, an inhuman chill will enter the German Bundestag, which the survivors of the Holocaust believed had been overcome," said Executive Vice President Christoph Heubner on Friday.

"The overwhelming majority" of Germans "have undergone the painful process of dealing honestly with history," he stressed, referring to the "decades-long process of engagement" of coming to terms with the NS period. [....]

Heubner refers to a potential member of the Bundestag from the AfD, who declares that he is committed to clearing out memory of the Holocaust and who wants to rid society of awareness of the Holocaust. He suggests that the parliamentary bloc of the AfD will be "a conglomerate of anti-Semites, haters-of-democracy, and nationalist agitators." [....]

Original article:
Auschwitz Komitee warnt vor AfD im Bundestag
DEUTSCHLAND WAHL 2017 / Stand: 22.09.2017 / [Welt.de]

_________________________________________

Die Meinungsforschungsinstitute sehen die AfD klar im Bundestag - zum Entsetzen des Internationalen Auschwitz Komitees. Mit der Partei werde eine „menschenverachtende Kälte“ ins Parlament einziehen.

_________________________________________

Das Internationale Auschwitz Komitee hat sich angesichts des zu erwartenden Einzugs der AfD in den Bundestag erschüttert gezeigt. „Mit ihrer Wahl wird in den Deutschen Bundestag eine menschenverachtende Kälte einziehen, die Überlebende des Holocaust gerade in Deutschland für überwunden gehalten hatten“, teilte Exekutiv-Vizepräsident Christoph Heubner am Freitag mit.

Die Deutschen hätten sich „in ihrer großen Mehrheit auf einem schmerzhaften Weg vor der Geschichte ehrlich gemacht“, betonte er mit Blick auf das „jahrzehntelange Engagement“ bei der Aufarbeitung der NS-Vergangenheit. [...]

Heubner verwies auf potenzielle Abgeordnete der AfD, die sich immer wieder dazu bekannt hätten, Erinnerungen an den Holocaust abzuräumen und aus dem Bewusstsein der Gesellschaft verbannen zu wollen. Auf den Parlamentsplätzen der AfD sei „ein Konglomerat von Antisemiten, Demokratieverächtern und nationalistischen Hetzern“ zu vermuten. [....]

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Re: German political parties' Views on Holocaust Issue; a 'Holocaust Continuum' in German Politics

Postby Hektor » 8 months 1 week ago (Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:14 am)

Sannhet wrote:....
It is useful to see this issue, as you propose, within a range of possible views.
The really hardline advocates of the Holocaust-enforcement, so-called "remembrance culture" are on the Hard Left, of course. The Holocaust is perhaps the German Left (and general Western Left?)'s main source of political legitimacy.

Indeed the Holocaust is the foundational Myth of the left, that is the Left's ideological driving engine. It legitimizes EVERYTHING they do stand for. They've substituted their prior engagement supposedly for the poor and down-trodden workers for groups that are allegedly unfairly discriminated against by the bulk of society in the here and now. That would be "racial minorities" or "marginalized ethnic groups", immigrants (as long as they aren't Christian and White), homosexuals and sexual deviants, moochers of all kinds - Even bankers get a special protected status now. I recall that Thorsten Schulte was attacked by leftists for his critique of the banking system, as "promoting structural Antisemitism".

The left transformed from indignant utopians towards insane lunatics, while riding on the Holocaust wave. Oh, who's there enemy: Traditional Western Nations, and yes, the Christian, White, Male selfreliant person. That's then the NAZI to them.

Sannhet wrote:....
The 'Holocaust-pushing' German Left today can be said to consist of what remains of the old-line ideological left-wing of the SPD (much less so much Gerhard Schroeder's neoliberal centrist wing and certain other old-line workingman elements that remain in the SPD), the Green Party (Joschka Fischer was and is a major Holocaust-Pusher) perhaps minus its so-called 'Black Green' wing (a Lower Saxony politician who defected from the Green Party to the CDU in August 2017 seems to have coined this term to refer to conservative Greens; she saw the Greens as being too leftist), and (especially) die Linke's party apparatus, but not their now-increasingly-elderly east-German voter base. The 'pro-Holocaust' majority within the SPD (let's assume it is two-thirds), the Green bloc, and the Linke bloc, all summed together will, according to polls, only have around 35% of Bundestag seats. Good news for revisionism?
The leftists were class parties until the 1980s. When even unskilled workers could have a decent standard of living in Germany and other Western countries. The tone changed from exploitation of the workers towards pro-environmental, pro-turd-world anti-capitalism. The Greens represent the "intellectual left", mostly people with degrees in soft disciplines were being able to play with words is all that counts. It's what one can call "New Left". "Die Linke" is more your old-left types that were supporters of the Communist regimes and more radical SPD-members and trade unionists in the past. Funny that they are never confronted with Communist crimes and that they simply can brush that off, while conservatives will be hounded for supposedly being pro-NAZI. The SPD itself is shrinking, my take is that it's mostly made up by old habitual voters and people those that have a position with the state thanks to their party membership or proximity.

Sannhet wrote:....
The CDU, I would argue, retains what we may call an 'Ernst Nolte Wing,' which is today nearly voiceless; large but tacit. Some of those from this CDU 'Ernst Nolte Wing' who are most ideological on this point have now defected to the AfD. Members of the new Bundestag sympathetic to Holocaust Revisionism may include large numbers of AfD people and some minority in the CDU. If it is half of AfD delegation and one-fifth of CDU delegation, we have something near 15% of seats occupied by this reconstituted 'Nolte Wing,' half of whom are now AfD.

OK, Ernst Nolte wing as in "Historization of the Holocaust". They more or less accept the standard version of "the Holocaust, but try to contextualize it in some sense. Germany should hook off it's "Nazi past" and not be fixated with Hitler and the Holocaust (as it is since the 1960s).
I think that is a position of a silent majority of Germans, who are actually sick and tired to deal with the Holocaust subject and don't want to see Hitler's face on TV. Despite that, there is also some fascination with the subject in some Germans.

I'd estimate that 10% or more of Germans realize that the historiography of the Holocaust and second world war is grossly distorted. But they are intimidated to a large extent by the cult and it's informal members. So they mostly shut up about it.

Sannhet wrote:....
So my little mental experiment can yield this way to conceptualize the likely election result:
Aggressive Holocaust-Pushers (overt): 35% of seats
Opponents of Holocaust Cult-ism (tacit): 15% of seats (of whom only a minority will speak out)
Neutrals and those passively obedient to 'Big H.' cultural hegemony: 50%

Your assessment seems to be in the ball park. However in the general population, it may look differently again. As I said, people get fed up with the subject. They get "Holocaust fatigue" and actually try to avoid the subject. But they're not left alone, Hitler seems to be still omnipresent on television. And the media makers know how to diversify the subject.

Sannhet wrote:....
I might also propose a continuum of beliefs on Holocaustism to be something like this (numbers all based on my own impressions from observation, and subject to dispute):
__________________________________________________________
Should the Holocaust be Central to German Identity?
Absolute 'Yes' = 1
Neutral = 50
Absolute 'No' = 100

[Right]
(80-100 : Note, Germans with views in this zone risk jail time if they voice them)
65 : AfD Voters
45 : AfD Party Leadership
40 : CDU Voters
20 : CDU Party Leadership
30?: FDP

[Left]
25 : SPD Voters
15 : SPD Party Leadership
10 : The mainstream Green Left
30 : The 'Black Greens,' the conservative minority within the Green Party (e.g. Winfried Kretschmann)
40?: Older Linke Voters in East Germany
5 : Linke Voters in West Germany
1 : Linke Party Leadership
__________________________________________________________

I'm not that sure, whether the Left is really consisting of that extreme Holocaust pushers. Most of them do, but for many it's just a narrative of convenience - a noble lie, if you want.

There is conservative Holocaust pushers and guilt mongers as well. Richard von Weizsaecker for example. And then there is also something like a Zionist Right. Liberal or Conservative critics of islamization that are also ardent supporters of Israel. They tend to be pro-US as well.

What is required is a group with visibility, and without infiltration of intelligence services (like the NPD), that appears to be more far right than the NPD. That could help the AfD to look more moderate. Experience shows that a lot of people will vote for a right party with more moderate appearance, when there is a more extreme looking group that competes.

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby borjastick » 8 months 1 week ago (Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:59 am)

Indeed the Holocaust is the foundational Myth of the left, that is the Left's ideological driving engine. It legitimizes EVERYTHING they do stand for. They've substituted their prior engagement supposedly for the poor and down-trodden workers for groups that are allegedly unfairly discriminated against by the bulk of society in the here and now. That would be "racial minorities" or "marginalized ethnic groups", immigrants (as long as they aren't Christian and White), homosexuals and sexual deviants, moochers of all kinds - Even bankers get a special protected status now. I recall that Thorsten Schulte was attacked by leftists for his critique of the banking system, as "promoting structural Antisemitism".

The left transformed from indignant utopians towards insane lunatics, while riding on the Holocaust wave. Oh, who's there enemy: Traditional Western Nations, and yes, the Christian, White, Male self reliant person. That's then the NAZI to them.


Correct, the hard left, who seem to be ever more self loathing about their white historical and colonial past seem very capable of disliking or even hating israel and its antics but completely incapable of understanding the truth of the holocaust. Seemingly they can hate the apartheid actions of the israelis, because apartheid is hate and must be hated a la sooth effrica, but still hold so much compassion for those poor old jews who are always so persecuted and hated.

They just don't want to be normal and truthful, these Tarquins and Tabithas hate themselves more than they could possibly hate the lies of the holocaust.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Elroy » 8 months 1 week ago (Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:23 pm)

borjastick wrote:
Indeed the Holocaust is the foundational Myth of the left, that is the Left's ideological driving engine. It legitimizes EVERYTHING they do stand for. They've substituted their prior engagement supposedly for the poor and down-trodden workers for groups that are allegedly unfairly discriminated against by the bulk of society in the here and now. That would be "racial minorities" or "marginalized ethnic groups", immigrants (as long as they aren't Christian and White), homosexuals and sexual deviants, moochers of all kinds - Even bankers get a special protected status now. I recall that Thorsten Schulte was attacked by leftists for his critique of the banking system, as "promoting structural Antisemitism".

The left transformed from indignant utopians towards insane lunatics, while riding on the Holocaust wave. Oh, who's there enemy: Traditional Western Nations, and yes, the Christian, White, Male self reliant person. That's then the NAZI to them.


Correct, the hard left, who seem to be ever more self loathing about their white historical and colonial past seem very capable of disliking or even hating israel and its antics but completely incapable of understanding the truth of the holocaust. Seemingly they can hate the apartheid actions of the israelis, because apartheid is hate and must be hated a la sooth effrica, but still hold so much compassion for those poor old jews who are always so persecuted and hated.

They just don't want to be normal and truthful, these Tarquins and Tabithas hate themselves more than they could possibly hate the lies of the holocaust.


This apparent dillema is the angle that Norman Finkelstein argues in...

He declares the whole Holocaust Industry corrupt and identifies it as the spell enabling genocide of the Palestinian's.

But then goes on to say that his family were quote "exterminated" (as a reason why not to support genocide of Palestinian's).

Thus attempting to maintain Jewish supremacy through their doctrine whilst also denouncing murderous methods- preferring "soft genocide", and soft totalitarianist to achieve global jewish goals.

A young man once emailed Finkelstein- I have seen the correspondence on the web but unable to find it just now- where by he asked Finkelstein if he really believes in the Holocaust.

Finkelstein replies quote "I think the holocaust probably happened."

A man who claims his entire family were "exterminated" replying that the holocaust "probably" happened.....

^That's a bit of a problem [if anybody can again find this correspondence and link it would be appreciated].

Revisionism is a 1 way street- once the spell is broken- you can never again "believe"- you can lie for the establishment but not believe.

So we are faced with 2 possibilities that either Finkelstein is a totally worthless academic with no ability to understand anything about the subject at all [obviously not true]- or he deliberately twists the truth to serve his objective.

However- if you were Finkelstein, what would you do- by claiming his family were "exterminated" he immediately creates a kind of "safe" from accusations of holocaust denial whilst able to then counteract the rest of the negative effects of the myth- in effect potentially an undercover revisionist like Pressac- so maybe best to not judge this kind too badly.

Of course there will be scores of Jew's and hard-lefters that will latch onto the new religious strain anyway.

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Re: German Bundestag Election 2017 and 'Holocaust Politics'

Postby Pia Kahn » 8 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:58 pm)

A recent article in the leftist newspaper "Die Zeit" is openly for abolishing holocaust denial laws. The article was written by the leftist editor of the newspaper Josef Joffe.

http://www.zeit.de/2018/07/holocaustges ... -zeitgeist

The motivation for writing the article are the Polish holocaust laws which seek to outlaw the statement that Poland was involved in the holocaust. However, he does talk about holocaust denial laws:

""Wie es wirklich gewesen ist", um den berühmten Ranke-Spruch aufzugreifen, kann nicht per Gesetz verfügt werden – das ist der absurde Teil. Hier müssen sich auch Belgier, Deutsche oder Franzosen an die Nase fassen, welche die Leugnung des Holocausts unter Strafe stellen."

"What really happened" - quoting the famous bon mot by Ranke - cannot be decreed by a law - this is the absurd part.... Oh well, the second sentence is really hard to translate. It effectively means that the holocaust denial laws in Belgium, Germany and France are no good.
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.


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