Nazis killed Jews with magic atomic bomb...

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:47 pm)

I previously stated:
It's ludicrous to think the Germans would manufacture a document which in essence would reinforce the lies about them having an 'extermination' plan.

To supplement that I should add:

It's ludicrous to think the Germans would manufacture such a document which in essence would reinforce the lies about them having an 'extermination' plan for Jews and present it to the German public in an effort to promote faith in an ultimate German victory.
Yep, that is what those such as Jamie McCarthy of the discredited Nizkor site would have us believe.

All that in light of the fact that there never was any German atomic weapons whatsoever, and the mentioned secret weapons programs were V rockets & jet fighters....which they did have, and did use.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:00 pm)

Trojan:
While it seems you prefer go after Hannover in a personal way, it is not furthering the debate here. In fact you seem to avoid specifics and go around in circles. These useless posts get deleted. Please note that there are many Revisionist posts which have been deleted for the same reason, that's a fact.
A few points that you make need clarification. I am not a Hannover.
Your reference to Andrew Mathis and Roberto, are uninformed and factually incorrect. Have a look at threads here in which they participated and see the results, the record speaks for itself. I notice that you have avoided posting any views which would lend support to their positions. To claim 'foul' when the opportunity is there to respond is at best, insincere.
M3

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Postby J William » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:15 am)

Trojan wrote:
Jackson: The reports, then, of a new and secret weapon were exaggerated for the purpose of keeping the German people in the war?

Speer: That was the case mostly during the last phase of the war. From August, or rather June or July 1944 on I very often went to the front. I visited about 40 front-line divisions in their sectors and could not help seeing that the troops, just like the German people, were given hopes about a new weapon coming, new weapons and wonder-weapons which, without requiring the use of soldiers, without military forces, would guarantee victory. In this belief lies the secret why so many people in Germany offered their lives, although common sense told them that the war was over. They believed that within the near future this new weapon would arrive.

Curious, why did our knowledgeble deniers not include this quote?


Let's see if I understand this correctly. On the one hand, when believers are asked for documentary evidence on an alleged extermination plan the answer is that it was a "super secret", no paper trail and only a few were in on it. Yet when trying to rationalize the statement by Jackson concerning the extermination of 20,000 Jews by an atomic weapon the very same believers come back and state that the German people were publically notified of an extermination program to bolster their morale. Aw, come on; it can't be both ways. On one hand, a state super secret and on the other hand an item of public knowledge. Speer is being a classic co-operative clemency seeker.

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:02 pm)

Moderator3 wrote:Trojan:
While it seems you prefer go after Hannover in a personal way, it is not furthering the debate here. In fact you seem to avoid specifics and go around in circles. These useless posts get deleted. Please note that there are many Revisionist posts which have been deleted for the same reason, that's a fact.
A few points that you make need clarification. I am not a Hannover.
Your reference to Andrew Mathis and Roberto, are uninformed and factually incorrect. Have a look at threads here in which they participated and see the results, the record speaks for itself. I notice that you have avoided posting any views which would lend support to their positions. To claim 'foul' when the opportunity is there to respond is at best, insincere.
M3


And you are going to tell me that Hannover is not allowed to dodge a question when it does not suit his purpose?

This thread started with a quote from Jackson, one, when taken out of context seems to be ridiculous in the extreme.

However, when the text is taken in context, it is plannly evident that Jackson was seeking information concerning Nazi secret weapon programs. The preceeding and follow-up questions demonstrate this for any knowledgeable person to see.

Then, when I post a rebuttal, rather than my post appearing, Hannover mysteriously reaffirms and clarifies his statement. Yeah, that's just a coincidence.

Besides Hannover made the statement ... "The Germans did not create the cited document which Justice Jackson presented and you can present no evidence to show they did." ... now, if I made that statement, I would be asked to demonstrate how and why it was not made by the Germans.

I asked Hannover to support his statement, his reply was a dodge ... it was a dodge, I would not be allowed to get away with it, he should not!!

C'mon, have the nerve to post this, then have the nerve to demand that Hannover respond!!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:19 pm)

Trojan:

I didn't dodge anything, I pointed out the absurdity of trying to claim it was a German document produced to boost public confidence in the war effort.

I asked for evidence that the document was of German origin; none was presented at Nuremberg or at this Forum. Therefore, it was obviously not of German origin or evidence would have been produced.

Neither you or Nizkor's McCarthy can produce such evidence, yet you claim the Germans produced it. So now, who's doing the dodging?

you said:
...it is plainly evident that Jackson was seeking information concerning Nazi secret weapon programs.

Sorry, but that is a diversion. The document states that the Germans killed 20,000 Jews with an atomic bomb and you can't get around it...end of story.

This document, presented by an Allied Forces judge just reinforces the fact that Nuremberg was a sham of enormous proportions.

Oh yes, I notice you haven't posted in defense of any of Andrew Mathis's or Roberto's opinions. For good reason I suggest.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:47 pm)

The document states that the Germans killed 20,000 Jews with an atomic bomb


I'm almost breathless to hear that someone could possibly even believe in such obvious nonsense!

Please also remember that these trials was only used to kill these Germans in a 'legal' manner. I find it absurd that anyone even take these trials seriously

But then again, i guess we are all different and that not all of us have the capability to actually see through these obvious lies. Either way, we have the truth on our side, while the worshippers only have lies and impossibilities.
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:34 pm)

Haldan wrote:
The document states that the Germans killed 20,000 Jews with an atomic bomb


I'm almost breathless to hear that someone could possibly even believe in such obvious nonsense!

Please also remember that these trials was only used to kill these Germans in a 'legal' manner. I find it absurd that anyone even take these trials seriously

But then again, i guess we are all different and that not all of us have the capability to actually see through these obvious lies. Either way, we have the truth on our side, while the worshippers only have lies and impossibilities.


Exactly what was your point here?

Are you saying that the document is a forgery intended to promote what is refered to as the Holocaust lie?

Or, could this just be a nonsencical document that Jackson used to open the door into an investigateion of the Nazi atomic weapon program?

Since Jackson so easily dismisses the document and accepts Speers explanation, I would say the latter is more likely.

Of course Hannover wouldn't accept this, he'd rather scream from the rafters that it is a document intended to promote what he refers to as the "Holacau$t."

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:34 pm)

Oh please, Justice Jackson doesn't say....'Hey, here's a joke were using to make a point'. No, he says:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed in my hands, of an experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask you [Albert Speer] if you heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to find a quick and complete way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and gassing and burning, as it had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A village, a small village was provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people were eradicated almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace left of them; that it developed the explosive developed, temperatures of from 400 to 500 degrees centigrade and destroyed them without leaving any trace at all.

Trojan attempts a diversion by saying it was used as some sort of bizarre segue into a German secret weapons topic, while he believes that the Germans produced the document for homefront consumption; but can present no evidence of that assertion.

Again:
Trojan cannot show me evidence that it was a German created document.

And yes, it is but one of many absurdities presented at Nuremberg which exposes the fraudulent nature of the allegations of the 'holocau$t.

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:44 pm, edited 7 times in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:48 pm)

This thread was from several months ago, and I just read it, but it's really not clear to me about the atomic bomb thing.

Actually I can see what Trojan is saying in the thread, and it doesn't actually get answered. He's asking "what was this document in front of Jackson?" Don't all IMT documents have a number? Trojan isn't asking for the IMT page where Jackson states he has a document before him, he's asking for the actual document number. Which is different.

But at the same time it appears that Hannover is saying that whatever the document is, you can't prove it's a German document. Hannover and others then offer compelling logic as why this couldn't be a German document. The question still remains "what was this document? where was it from? Does it have an IMT number?

I read the Nizkor link, but it didn't make sense either. Also, the references they give are:
TMWC, Vol. XXII, p. 577.

Does anyone know what that is? What does TMWC stand for.

Here's how I break the scenario down:

Jackson says he has this document that implies that an atomic bomb killed 20,000 Jews. Speer says there's no truth in it. Jackson says o.k. And then it's implied that it was Nazi propaganda at the end of the war involving the idea that new super weapons would be built. Then the court proceedings move on.

Major problems with this scenario: If the Germans were themselves going to circulate a lie that they used an atomic bomb to help morale, it would be a bomb used on the front. Against the Soviets or something. To tell everyone they used it against the Jews is absurd. The supposed holocaust was secret. Remember? Thus, this explanation doesn't make sense. Amazingly, according to the transcript, the oh so honorable Justice Jackson buys into this logic! So does Nizkor!

Also, as Hannover mentions, the hope for new weapons actually happened via the first rockets and the first jets.

So thus this document couldn't be a German document. Did the Soviets give it to Jackson? Is there a document number for it? That's what Trojan was asking for I believe. But at the same time it appeared that Trojan concluded that the document was nazi propaganda, and thus the IMT never really believed it in the first place, but used it to start discussing atomic projects. Trojan then asserts that revisionists weren't being honest in taking that IMT passage out of context. The problem with Trojan's angle is that, for reasons given above, it couldn't possibly be a nazi document.

It could be that it was a Soviet-false-allegation-document, that didn't go anywhere, since the US atomic bomb clarified who had the bomb, and what an Atomic bomb was, what it did, etc. Perhaps it was a document created and submitted between the time period of the ending of the Europe war and the dropping of the atomic bomb in Japan.

It's hard to grasp the notions people had about atomic energy before an actual bomb was dropped. Had an atomic bomb not been developed until 1950, this document almost could have worked as well as the Treblinka story for the IMT. The story could have gone that they did this, and destroyed all the evidence and destroyed their atomic research, just about like the Treblinka story. But due to the actual dropping of a bomb, it became a strange remnant document.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:44 pm)

Jackson does not mention a document number - as he normally does. He just states:
"... I have certain information, ..."
In the German version he says:
"Man hat mir einen gewissen Bericht über ein Experiment, das in der Nähe von Auschwitz durchgeführt wurde, ausgehändigt, ...

The verb "aushändigen" means "to hand out"; so he is talking about a document and not about verbal information - or the translation is diffuse.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:19 pm)

I think there's a number of ways this episode in the trials can support revisionism. I could explain by imagined quotes:

The wrong way:

--"The International Military Tribunal even accused them of setting off an atomic bomb to kill Jews! And you must know that's false!"

The possible right way:

--"Besides Katyn forest, human soap, and skin lamphades, the Soviets even submitted a document that the Nazis destroyed 20,000 Jews with an atomic bomb! But by the time a real bomb had gone off, this document was ridiculous, so they didn't pursue it."

--"Hess stated, that the IMT's actions proved his own honor. One can see this about the IMT in that when they had a truly unbelievable document provided by the Soviets, such as the document stating an atomic bomb was used to kill Jews allegation, they'd simply lose the document. Thus all we have is an IMT reference to it. But not the document itself"

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Postby disillusioned » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:41 pm)

Cutlass:

1) What Jackson did, in a sneaky way, is to reinforce the idea that the Germans were cold-blooded, evil, genocidal people. There is only two possible outcomes of Jackson's deceitful behavior:

a) People will believe that a bomb was used and so the Germans are evil (and that it wasn't just propoganda)... or

b) The Germans are so evil they took delight in the news that their government used an experimental bomb to kill 20,000 people.


2) Jackson said "document". Not leaflet, newsletter, newspaper, or brochure. He said *DOCUMENT*. That sounds kind of official doesn't it? Doesn't this add to the mystery of the whole thing? oooo... a document... where did it come from? Who made it? If Jackson had said.. "leaflet" than he would not have had the same overall impact...

3) It is irrelevant that Jackson concluded it was propoganda. He could have just as easily said the document was irrefutable evidence. They accepted so much other garbage as irrefutable evidence, it's hard to believe they did not accept this "document." This story about an experimental bomb is actually *more* believable than any of the gas chamber stories because it is actually possible! The gas chambers, as proposed, are not!




This whole episode is a testimony to the lunacy of the trials.

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Postby Petschau » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:44 pm)

The Germans devoted extensive resources to their atomic program.
They were doing research into splitting the atom as far back as 1938, I believe.

The main stumbling block to their successful completion of this work is the fact that nearly all of their researchers were Jews, and they probably dogged their research to prevent the Nazi's from succeding.

Several left Germany early on in the war as well.

The quest for "yellow-cake" or uranium oxide, is what was to have actually driven the Soviets to acquire Berlin before the Allies according to Beevor.
There was supposedly several tons stored at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, just outside of the city, which is where the research took place. The Soviets were in dire need of it for their own atomic program codenamed Operation Borodino.

If there was a document, it was either found at the site or fabricated by the Russians. When the Russians reached the Institute, most of the research had been evacuated to another site, so their information on the Nazi program was incomplete, and I think they must have wanted to know definitively how far the German's had gotten in the development process.
So what better way, than to bring it up at the IMT with a reasonable German on the defensive.

David Irving wrote a book about the Nazi Atomic Program back in 1968.
The title is "Virus House" (which was the name the Germans chose for the facility as well.)
It can be downloaded here. http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/VirusHouse/

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:59 am)

disillusioned wrote:
3) It is irrelevant that Jackson concluded it was propoganda. He could have just as easily said the document was irrefutable evidence. They accepted so much other garbage as irrefutable evidence, it's hard to believe they did not accept this "document." This story about an experimental bomb is actually *more* believable than any of the gas chamber stories because it is actually possible! The gas chambers, as proposed, are not!


I think it's significant in that it shows how ignorant and out-to-lunch Jackson is. Here we are in a courtroom, with the world watching, and to call that document propaganda, while at the same time saying how secret the "final solution" was, is just nutty. Also, funny that he makes this mistake after being so smart with his comment about the scientists emigrating.

This whole episode in the trial brings up the question of evidence. Here the evidence is frankly dismissed. Were the lampshades and the soap dismissed like this also? That is a question I have. The context of the evidence is important.

The atomic bomb allegation isn't significant for the apparent reasons one would immediately think. It's significant for other reasons mentioned in my previous post, but also because it's an off-hand libelous, crude dismissal of the document. As if to say "nah, they were just bragging of killing 20,000 Jews with an atomic bomb to boost troop morale." From that one can see how crude these trials were.

But at the same time, this thread never shows the complete conversation. Trojan supplies an ending snippet, and I assume that came after the other snippet, but maybe I didn't see the whole atomic IMT dialogue.

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Postby J William » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:42 am)

It would appear that the whole allegation of atomic weapons in the context of this thread has just as much forensic and documentary evidence supporting it as does the allegation of homicidal gas chambers; in other words NONE. No hard evidence is brought forward and all we have is unbelievable eyewitness anecdotes and magical decoding of documents by reading between the lines and coming up with a conclusion based on what the decoders think it should mean rather than what it actually says.


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