On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

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Spatton
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On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

Postby Spatton » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:51 pm)

Hello, I'm new here. I wasn't too sure where to post this so I'll dump everything here. I have 2 things I want to talk about, 1; My personal feelings and difficulties dealing with the truth about the holocaust, and 2; the laws currenlty in place in many European countries and how to get rid of them. Feel free to skip to n°2 if my personal issues don't concern you.

1. My issues.
Some background first, I have always believed the holocaust was a proven fact. Like most people I never looked at the evidence and merely believed what I was told at a very young(I can remember my school teacher telling the class it was proven as early as age 6-7). That all changed over the last couple of months when first I found out there actually wasn't that many evidence for the holocaust, after which I began researching myself and stumbled upon the arguments of revisionists like Robert Faurisson and David Cole and off'course the reports by the gentlemen Leuchter and Rudolph.

Now the issue that I have is that I find myself trapped in a world that believes without evidence, and furthermore severely punishes those that question this. All my life I have believed we lived in a society that values freedom of expression and truth. But now that veil has been thorn away and I find am constantly angry, I can't focus on anything and I have seemingly no one to talk to about this. How did you all cope with this?

2.Evil holocaust laws
It seems to me the biggest issue facing the revisionist are the laws put in place stiffling freedom of speech and scientific enquiry. I feel our main focus should be the abolishment of these laws throughout Europe. After all when people can freely pursue the truth, truth will (almost) always be found, right?

And on that I did stumble on to something interesting yesterday. I was doing some research on the denial of the armenian genocide and came across the case of Doğu Perinçek, a turkish politician who was found guilty of "racial discrimination" by denying the armenian genocided happened in a swiss court. He appealed to the European court of human rights who ruled in his favor as the court was in breach of article 10 of the european convention of human rights.

Here is the ruling made by the European court of human rights;
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{"itemid":["001-158235"]}

Now I find this very interesting as this sets a clear precedent, denying a genocide is clearly protected by freedom of speech. Can the european court of human rights be used to do away with the holocaust laws? Also has anyone who has been tried for holocaust denial ever appealed to this court(succesful or otherwise)? From what I can tell a lot of people who were tried did not so why didn't they?



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Hannover
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Re: On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

Postby Hannover » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:16 am)

Hello Spatton, welcome.

Briefly:

1. Of course, every Revisionist is a former Believer. Perhaps it's something in our make up that we eventually investigated an allegation so severe that many are convinced of it's veracity just because of the vastness of the claims, the ultimate Big Lie phenomenon, 'No one would lie about something so enormous'. Wrong.
Yes, bringing the topic up in certain company can be problematic. Remember, we're now dealing with a religion, where logic, science, & rational thought go out the window. There are also a variety of psychological, political, & financial processes involved.
We have all experienced the same feelings. Myself, I pick & choose when & where to raise the issue of the narrative's impossibility. While many flee the topic, there are victories. After all, there are more & more of us everyday. At this forum we have a real level playing field in which to discuss what are frankly, absurd claims. You're at the right place. Call it home.

2. The laws and persecution are pure evil. But those laws and actions are proof of the fact that the storyline does not withstand scrutiny. Why else would they need such laws & actions? Debunking the 'holocaust' is just not very difficult once one gets past the juvenile indoctrination we all receive.
We're in a massive fight that we will win, sooner or later a critical mass will be achieved. When is hard to say.

Cheers, Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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borjastick
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Re: On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

Postby borjastick » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:28 am)

Firstly welcome to you Spatton, always nice to see another new contributor. I must commend you on the quality of your first post, a good topic, thoughtful and well written. Make every post count, move the subject matter forward, that's what I say.

Have no fear about you finding yourself somewhat out on a limb on the matter of the holocaust when it comes to the acceptance of it by most around you. We are all in that boat. People are like lemmings, they all run in the same direction until, that is, they raise their heads above the crowd to see what all the fuss is about. That's when people like you, me, hannover and the other players here see the light and the truth. It then becomes and obsession to communicate this truth to as many as possible while keeping sane at the same time. I find it very odd indeed when some people I have spoken to on the matter still cannot or will not accept that the holocaust is a lie. Maybe it's to do with an in-bred resistance to criticising those poor old jews. Like when people say the jews are so deserving of our support due to the fact that they have been persecuted for two thousand years, without asking why it is, that this is the case.

On the matter of the international court of human rights etc you make a good point and I too wonder if anyone considered it. The problem would be the establishment crushing the application before it got anywhere. Jews would rise up and shout 'anti semite' and push for legal blocks to any such move. Remember, as hannover says ' an anti-semite is anyone or anything a jew doesn't like'. How very true that is. The other pinch point would be the fact that generally speaking the fact of the holocaust has already been established and accepted by the legal authorities. They feel that the holocaust happened and that's that, game over, no discussion.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

Postby Hektor » 2 weeks 2 days ago (Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:45 pm)

Spatton wrote:Hello, I'm new here. I wasn't too sure where to post this so I'll dump everything here. I have 2 things I want to talk about, 1; My personal feelings and difficulties dealing with the truth about the holocaust, and 2; the laws currenlty in place in many European countries and how to get rid of them. Feel free to skip to n°2 if my personal issues don't concern you.


It should always raise a question, when a specific issue suddenly gets exceptional protection via persecuting those that question or dispute the truth of it. In the philosophy of science there is something like the criterion of falsifiability:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/criter ... ifiability

That means something can only be a valid scientific thesis, if it is feasibly possible to prove it false. Feasibly possible means no legal or violent obstruction to do research of it. If a certain outcome of a thesis would be credibly threatened with violence including "legal" violence then it's not feasibly falsifiable. And hence the Holocaust can't be a scientific truth.

Spatton wrote:1. My issues.
Some background first, I have always believed the holocaust was a proven fact. Like most people I never looked at the evidence and merely believed what I was told at a very young(I can remember my school teacher telling the class it was proven as early as age 6-7). That all changed over the last couple of months when first I found out there actually wasn't that many evidence for the holocaust, after which I began researching myself and stumbled upon the arguments of revisionists like Robert Faurisson and David Cole and off'course the reports by the gentlemen Leuchter and Rudolph.

I think we all assumed it to be more or less true, when we were in school or heard about it on the media. The "convincing" or rather persuasion is commonly done with pictures of the Western Camps taken by the Allies at the end of the war. There is one big problem with this, and this is that the emaciated corpses didn't have anything to do with some Nazi extermination program.

Spatton wrote:Now the issue that I have is that I find myself trapped in a world that believes without evidence, and furthermore severely punishes those that question this. All my life I have believed we lived in a society that values freedom of expression and truth. But now that veil has been thorn away and I find am constantly angry, I can't focus on anything and I have seemingly no one to talk to about this. How did you all cope with this?

The Valuing of freedom of expression / free speech / truth is indeed a pretense in Western societies. So people tend to be believe that this is what's really going on and are surprised that free speech is suppressed in some special cases and that outlets disseminate blatant untruth, even lies.

Spatton wrote:2.Evil holocaust laws
It seems to me the biggest issue facing the revisionist are the laws put in place stiffling freedom of speech and scientific enquiry. I feel our main focus should be the abolishment of these laws throughout Europe. After all when people can freely pursue the truth, truth will (almost) always be found, right?

I'd say one should firstly point out the blatant hypocrisy of the legislation (Not, not law) suppressing free speech on the Holocaust. This is indeed what gets people really shaken up. Outright "Holocaust Denial" is commonly brushed of as some crazy belief of fringe groups that believe in conspiracy theories.

Spatton wrote:And on that I did stumble on to something interesting yesterday. I was doing some research on the denial of the armenian genocide and came across the case of Doğu Perinçek, a turkish politician who was found guilty of "racial discrimination" by denying the armenian genocided happened in a swiss court. He appealed to the European court of human rights who ruled in his favor as the court was in breach of article 10 of the european convention of human rights.

Here is the ruling made by the European court of human rights;
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{"itemid":["001-158235"]}

Now I find this very interesting as this sets a clear precedent, denying a genocide is clearly protected by freedom of speech. Can the european court of human rights be used to do away with the holocaust laws? Also has anyone who has been tried for holocaust denial ever appealed to this court(succesful or otherwise)? From what I can tell a lot of people who were tried did not so why didn't they?


You see, the Armenians aren't an influential groups and politicians do not really have an interest in it. With the Holocaust it's different. There it is important that people have to believe in it, given that there are several influential groups with vested interest in it. For starters it works as justification myth for a number of ideologies relating to egalitarianism and cultural Marxism.

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Re: On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

Postby Mortimer » 2 weeks 2 days ago (Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:34 pm)

France is a signatory to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights which is supposed to guarantee freedom of expression. Robert Faurisson had his job as a university professor taken away from him. He appealed under the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights and got nowhere -
https://codoh.com/library/document/3852/

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Re: On Holocaust denial laws and dealing with the truth

Postby David M » 1 week 9 hours ago (Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:18 am)

Spatton wrote:Hello, I'm new here. I wasn't too sure where to post this so I'll dump everything here. I have 2 things I want to talk about, 1; My personal feelings and difficulties dealing with the truth about the holocaust, and 2; the laws currenlty in place in many European countries and how to get rid of them. Feel free to skip to n°2 if my personal issues don't concern you.

1. My issues. All my life I have believed we lived in a society that values freedom of expression and truth. But now that veil has been thorn away and I find am constantly angry, I can't focus on anything and I have seemingly no one to talk to about this. How did you all cope with this?


Hello Spatton.
First, don't be angry. Yes, there are people who want to keep you stupid but you are already out foxed them! You are a lucky guy to be so perceptive. It took me several years to realize how absurd Holocaust Belief is.

Next, Be smart. You have a duty to help wake your fellow citizens up but also a duty to keep your ass out of jail.
In much of the world, there is no such thing as Free Speech except in the speeches of politicians.

Next- Continue to educate yourself. The Holocaust Believers will not accept the Truth. They will merely construct
counterarguments. Please look at the thread about Intentionalism vs. Functionalism as an example.
The weapon of Believers is lying. The counter to lying is education.

Lastly, have faith in yourself. Holocaust Revisionists are few and far between. There will be times when
you wonder why 100% of Congress votes for a Holocaust Remembrance Day, why Holocaust Belief is taught in
every school, why Angela Merkel sobs as she visits the Yad Vashem. You will think, "Who is crazy here, them or me"
It's them, buddy


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