So where did they go?

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So where did they go?

Postby Guest » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:21 pm)

My wifes grandmother arrived here in Israel in 1946. She had been a citizen of Holland. She was deported to Auschwitz in late 1944 and then was almost immediately put back on a train to Buchenwald where American troops liberated her.

She didnt want to go back to Holland so she stayed in a DP camp where she met my wifes grandfather who had been a Zionist before the war. They came to Palestine, he fought in the war, they had a son, he had a daughter, and I have a wife now.

The problem I have with this theory that the Shoah was a lie or exagerated or whatever is that my wifes grandmother had seven brothers and sisters and none of them were ever heard from again. So what do you suppose happened to them if the Nazis didnt kill them?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:01 pm)

There are tons of stories about family members reuniting after they were thought to be dead. Too many in fact.

Just do a Google search 'holocaust family reunion', the results are vast. If the 'holocaust' as alleged was true, then we wouldn't see these 'miracles'.

In your case it's hard to know for sure, but some thoughts would be:

- maybe they died in the normal turmoil of war, there was a war
- maybe they died serving in an army during the war
- maybe they died of natural causes, illness etc.
- maybe they went to another country and just lost track of others
- maybe the tales you're led to believe are false, exaggerations, etc.

If you have evidence they were murdered we would like to see it.

Welcome to the Forum.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Fugazi » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:30 am)

Baavsi, two points in response to your post:

1. I endorse Hannover's comment about the reunited families. For instance, your wife's grandmother didn't return to Holland, she went to a DP camp and from there to Palestine. Maybe using false papers, ie under an assumed name, so there wouldn't be any record of her having returned from Buchenwald - if so, maybe other members of her family are thinking she died too. They might have also left DP camps using false papers, for other destinations.

2. That said, it's quite possible, even likely that her brothers and sisters all died, without any gas chambers or unfeasibly prolific crematoria involved. Consider this: following WW2, the allies pursued a policy of forced deportation, slave labour and to some extent the outright murder of Germans, particularly in the areas east of the Oder/Neisse rivers. This resulted in the deaths of several million people - obviously the ones that were murdered, but also those that died of cold, hunger, exhaustion and disease. The allies managed to kill all these Germans in peacetime - in late 1944, the Germans were doing the same kind of thing in conditions of collapsing infrastructure and general privation, so it wouldn't surprise me if the death rate was just as high.

These points aren't intended to suggest any disrespect to your wife's grandmother and her family, or to suggest it was OK for them to be forcibly deported and imprisoned, or to suggest that if they did die, the Nazis weren't responsible for those deaths. They're only intended to show that gas chambers and a Nazi policy of genocide aren't the most likely explanation.

Fugazi

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Postby Guest » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:36 am)

There are many reasons why what you are suggesting is not possible.

-Its certainly true that people die in wars. I just dont think that its probably that all six of my wifes grandmother (Savta)'s siblings died because of bombings or something like that.

-Savta was the oldest sibling. She was already working for a family which hid her when her family was deported. She was caught later than her siblings. So no one was in the military.

-Suggesting death by natural causes or illness is as impluasible as their dying from war-related causes. One or two, yes, but not all six.

-Savtas brothers and sisters would certainly have tried to find her as she tried to do with them. For them the trail ended according to the Red Cross with Sobibor.

-I dont think Savta has lied or exaggerated.

-Savta entered Palestine legally. Given their ages it is very doubtful that her siblings had forged papers. Even if they had Israel is a small country and people use search services where real names are used.

-Savta and her siblings were Dutch and not German so I dont see the relevance of the murder of Germans after the war.


All that said and knowing from the RC that they were sent to Sobibor and given what Ive read about Sobibor it seems a likely conclusion that they were murdered by the Nazis.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:33 am)

Now we're getting somewhere. Given what Revisionists here have demonstrated about Sobibor, your story (no offense) is less than credible. We can, however, assume that there were some typhus deaths there, (perhaps these people succumbed in that manner); but the story of Sobibor as alleged is thoroughly unsupportable.

- search the forum for: Sobibor
also try: Reinhardt camps ....and post to one of those threads if you think you can support the standard story about Sobibor

- Revisionists have repeatedly shown that people lie through tales of the 'holocaust'. A kind of wishful thinking, a desire to be 'famous', a need to feel special, financial gain, a wish to feel self-righteous, etc. A veritable 'victims Olympics' we have these days.

- I note you merely say you doubt death due to normal war events without saying why. They were in war zones...yes?

- You are assuming they all died at the same time, but they could have did at various stages, for various reasons...some in the war, some of illness, some old age; the same reasons that people die.

- You mention alleged Red Cross records but provide no details. Where is the data to be found? Can Revisionists access this data for research? Can you or any family member produce documents?

- Then we go back to Sobibor, where the story as alleged is completely unsustainable in the face of Revisionist research.

- While it may be the case that these folks are all dead, I see no evidence that they were killed in Sobibor as you imply. If you have some evidence to back up the Sobibor story, then by all means, let's see it.

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Re: So where did they go?

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:52 am)

baavsi wrote:The problem I have with this theory that the Shoah was a lie or exagerated or whatever is that my wifes grandmother had seven brothers and sisters and none of them were ever heard from again.


Its certainly true that people die in wars. I just dont think that its probably that all six of my wifes grandmother (Savta)'s siblings died because of bombings or something like that.


Is it six or seven? What happened to the children's parents?

She had been a citizen of Holland. She was deported to Auschwitz in late 1944 and then was almost immediately put back on a train to Buchenwald where American troops liberated her.


To our knowledge, the only RHSA transport from Holland that went to Auschwitz in the second half of 1944 was the one which carried the Frank family and arrived on the 5th September. Was your grandmother-in-law on this transport? Was she registered in Auschwitz?

She didnt want to go back to Holland so she stayed in a DP camp where she met my wifes grandfather who had been a Zionist before the war.


Did she say why she didn't wish to return to Holland?

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Postby neocon » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:09 am)

>My wifes grandmother arrived here in Israel in 1946.
>Savta entered Palestine legally.

Did she register her dutch surname when she presented
her legal immigration papers to the british military welcoming
her in Haifa Harbor in 1946 or did she jump a haganah ship
at night and swim to shore ?

If i was her long lost sibling, would there be any chance to
find her in israel under her dutch surname ?
Is/was her dutch surname-birthname officially in her Passwort
like "Madame X, Birthname Y" ?

Did she like <eh> receive Money from a german holocaust
fund ?

Ariel Scheinermann for President.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:54 am)

Hi,

Baavsi, it sounds like your grandmother was sent to Auschwitz at just about the same time as the Anne Frank group. There were 8 people in that group as I recall. Only one survived.

Anne of course died at Belsen, her sister died there, too. It is accepted that both died of disease (typhus) there. Anne's mother was hospitalized at Auschwitz and she died there too (heart disease). Some other people who were in the party - I don't know their names - were later traced to dying at Mauthausen and Flossenberg. These deaths were recorded, also listed as disease. Anne's father caught typhus at Auschwitz and he survived. He is the only one.

So, a test case that happens at the same time as your grandmother shows that out of a group of 8 people, specifically Dutch Jewish deportees (actually I think the Franks were German Jews but whatever), only 1 survived being in the camps the last year, that is 87% mortality. And no exterminations.

This is horrible and you have my condolences.

I know it doesn't help to say that these people died of 'natural' causes, it makes it sound like it was their fault that they died. Sorry.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:07 am)

Hi,

Just a couple of other things. Dutch Jews have been traced to the Baltic ghettoes in some cases same as German Jews. This means that whatever happened to them they didn't die or get killed at Sobibor.

The Red Army did not always treat deportees kindly. They considered them helping the German war effort (which in a way they were doing.) If you read deep into the books you can find stories of Red Army raping Jewish deportee women and also killing deportees as well as western POW's. To the Soviets, they were all "Germans."

I have known a few cases of deportees who have lied about what happened to them in the war, in this way. I can think of some deportees that I knew or slightly knew and the story was always that they jumped off a train to a camp, or something like that, or hid in a closet, for the war. After their deaths in recent years it is now known the secret comes out that they fled the Germans and went to the Soviet Union in 1940, 1941. However they did not tell the truth when they came back because they didn't want to admit that they had lived in communist Russia because it would hurt their chances to immigrate. Also I know of more than a few deportees who ended up on the wrong side of the line and were behind the Iron Curtain. Families would sometimes write back and forth to these people but it was usually kept hush hush again because they were living in communist countries.

I don't want to make fun of this or condemn these people. People have to do what they have to do to survive.

But the point here is not to pretend that people didn't suffer, or die. The point here is that we don't believe that millions of people were systematically killed in magical gas chambers. If we can agree that that point is something we can discuss without hate, we make progress.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:18 pm)

Secret Anne X wrote:Hi,

Just a couple of other things. Dutch Jews have been traced to the Baltic ghettoes in some cases same as German Jews. This means that whatever happened to them they didn't die or get killed at Sobibor.


What evidence links Dutch Jews to the Baltic states?

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:40 pm)

Hi,

You have to read the memoirs about people who lived in the Baltic camps, or books about the ghettoes in the Baltic or other Eastern camps and ghettoes. They make occasional references to Dutch Jews in these places; Minsk, Grodno, Kovno, Riga, these are places I remember being referenced. I don't have chapter and verse.

Guest

Postby Guest » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:22 pm)

Im afraid my English is not good nad some Ive made some mistakes.

-Savta is the oldest of seven children, so six siblings.

-She arrived after the war legally. I guessed on the date. She is not my grandmother after all but my wifes. My grandparents came here from Irak. I know Savta spent some time in Cyrpus and Turkey before coming here.
-I will have to ask her if she was in the Ann Frank transport. I cant imagine that she was or else we probably would have heard it already. So perhaps I am also wrong on her deportment date.
-The Red Cross documents are ones that my mother in law requested to try to find her aunts and uncles. They are not public documents and I would prefer not to make them public.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:49 pm)

baavsi said:
Six people don't just vanish into thin air

Nobody said they did.

You do raise a primary Revisionist point:

- the remains of an alleged 6 million Jews and alleged 5-6 million 'others' don't just vanish into thin air

Hannover

Oh yes, we have Y. Arad well covered here, check it out.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:14 pm)

Too much

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:37 am)

Good reasons for why so many members of the same family often died have been given here, but I wanted to add my own thoughts. If Typhus and other diseases were rife in Eastern Europe and the German camp system then it is very likely that the diseases would spread within a family group living closely together.


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