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Regarding my subject heading... my main thrust of research has been taking the standard "orthodox" texts and letting the authors hang themselves with their own words. Can revisionism be definitive? Absolutely, just ask Raul Hillberg;
"first published in 1961 and now reissued in a "revised and definitive edition" , Hillberg's Destruction of the European Jews remains the most important work that has ever been written on the subject."
Holocaust in History, p.48
Contrast that with,
"I have had no difficulty excluding from this book ANY discussion of so the called revisionists - malevolent cranks who contend that the Holocaust never happened."
Holocaust in History, Preface, p.XIV
"Holokaustos, we are reminded, comes from the third century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament, signifying "the burnt sacrificial offering dedicated exclusively to God". As such, the designation of the massacre of European Jewry connoted an event of theological significance, and perhaps as well an event whose mysteries were not meant to be understood."
hmmm.... am I to believe the Nazis were offering sacrifices to a Jewish tribal deity???? If not, why "dignify" it with the term holocaust?
"Nazi genocide was a truly monumental task, requiring great exertion throughout the whole of the German Empire, bureaucratic ingenuity, countless administrative decisions, the continous cooperation of widely diverse agencies, and many thousands of officials."
Holocaust in History, p.48-49
contrast that with,
"functionalist Historians agree that the Final Solution emerged through improvisation rather than deliberate planning."
"there was a twisted road to Auschwitz. The paths that lead to the extermination camps were by no means direct or, for that matter, charted far in advance."
"Hitler set the objective of Nazism: to get rid of the Jews, and above all to make the territory of the reich Judenfrei - but without specifying how this was to be achieved."
contrast the above with,
"Authority in the Third reich flowed not from laws and orders, issued by carefully delimited agencies, but rather from expressions of Hitler's will."
"Top Nazi officials had no clear aims...with respect to subsequent fate of the deportees. Killing, therefore, began not solely as the result of an ostensible will for extermination but also as a way out OF A BLIND ALLEY INTO WHICH THE NAZIS HAD MANOUVERED THEMSELVES (emphasis mine) ibid, p.41
"The Nazi's own records provide little help. Typically, Hitler and his lieutenants cloaked their most criminal activities in euphimistic language, tried strenously to keep their murderous plans secret, and WERE NOTORIOUSLY VAGUE IN DELIMITING LINES OF AUTHORITY."
contrast the above with,
"The deportees went directly to Auschwitz, where 1500 were immediately gassed( ) We usually know about such events, it should be noted, because the Nazis tell us about them, through the careful records they kept, the punctilious bookkeeping of the Final Solution."
Mr. Marrus, Dean of History (propaganda) at the University of Toronto
"I have had no difficulty excluding from this book any discussion of so the called revisionists - malevolent cranks who contend that the Holocaust never happened."
Mr. Marrus, Dean of History at the University of Toronto
Funny, I always thought history was supposed to be about facts, not propaganda - an objective analysis of documents rather than a dismissal of others' views......
Of course, the whole concept of majoring in history at university is pointless. Not only is it a waste of money, it is also a waste of time. I would rather do some readings on my own rather than be assigned a list of one-sided books that have more propaganda value than a discussion of history. Ironically, my university library (York U) does not even have any revisionist books (at least last time I checked they didn't). This is a university that provides funding to the Jewish Student Federation from ALL students' tuition, and whose chancellor AND president are Jewish. Kudos to all the universities that at least have some revisionist material in their libraries.
University has become a stage of parrotting the accepted views rather than formulating your own based on what you have read; a stage during which students learn tolerance (read: parrotting their Zionist masters, i.e. Mr. "justice" Irwin Cotler & co.), and from where they jump into "successful" careers.......... A brilliant system that encourages atrophy of people's abilities to analyze and think on their own. In this place and time, parrotting has become a virtue, and thinking on your own has become a vice. And isn't that why Mr. Zundel is in solitary confinement anyway?
We thank ye, Mr. Cotler & co. for keeping Canada a safe and tolerant place, where Nazism (read: revisionism) is not tolerated. Where historical truth is taken for granted without questioning the truth behind it. Where people rejoice in imprisoning people for thought "crimes." Welcome to Canada. A "liberal" haven. Nazis (read: revisionists) not welcome. And if they DO enter, we'll make sure they wouldn't get out....
The remains of an alleged '6,000,000 Jews' and the remains of an alleged 5-6,000,000 'others' don't just vanish.
I don't seem to see many references to Marrus. It's usually Hilberg, Van Pelt, and some Reitlinger, Fleming, & Gilbert thrown in.
It would be interesting to compare all of their work.
"Almost EVERYONE who lived through the period of the Holocaust, observing it from either near or far will readily testify that information concerning the Nazi murder of the Jews, when it first came out seemed absolutely unbelievable - impossible."
p. 158 - citing Jacob Katz,
"Was the Holocaust Predictable?"
Commentary, May 1975,
"Auschwitz defies imagination and perception; it submits only to memory.
I write to denounce writing. I tell of the impossibility one stumbles upon in trying to tell the tale."
- The Holocaust in History, Intro, p.8 citing Elie
Weisel, "Does the Holocaust Lie Beyond the Reach
Sorry Elie, they're too industrious!!
"We now have a vast literature on the Holocaust. Indeed, the field is by now far too vast for any one scholar to master. A recent, select bibliography lists close to two-thousand book entries in many languages and notes over ten thousand publications on Auschwitz alone."
- ibid, p.5-6 citing Vera Laska, Nazism, Resistance
and Holocaust in WWII: A Bibliography
Are there anything really valuable among all those millions of pages written? Do I need to read anything more than 2 or 3 books to understand their position?
I mean, I enjoyed "The Lord of the Rings" and all, but still I don't know of anyone complaining about Orc defamation. Maybe I'll read "The Hobbit" to complete my understanding of this -totally fantastic- Middle Earth.
"Add to this Hitler's curious leadership style-his inability to mount a sustained effort, his PROCRASTINATION, his frequent HESITATION - and one can understand the reluctance of many to accept the idea of a far reaching SCHEME or IDEOLOGICAL imperative necessitating the final solution." Holocaust in History, p.40
"As the head of government, Hitler operated by instinct rather than analysis. (that enabled the Germans to suspend the laws of physics and thermodynamics ) Since he disdained ORDERLY work procedures and his ministers found it difficult to gain access to him, policy making occurred in FITS and STARTS. Anything consistent with flashes of FRENETIC activity thrived; anything requiring SUSTAINED EFFORT tended to LANGUISH."
- Henry Kissinger, "Diplomacy" 1994, p.289
Kissinger an apologist??????????
"For, in 1936, Hitler continued to benefit from his unique combination of PSYCHOTIC INTUITION and DEMONIC will power."
- ibid, p.301
"Anticipating a great disaster for European Jewry in 1938, Vladimir Jabotinsky, leader of the right wing Zionist Revisionists, called for mass evacuation. In his view, however, the source of the coming catastrophe was East European antisemitism, NOT that of the Nazis."
- The Holocaust in History p.9, citing Joseph Schectman,
Fighter and Prophet: The Vladimir Jabotinsky Story,
The Last Years (New York, 1961) p.352
Right Wing Zionist Revisionists??? Apologists for the Third Reich???
I guess this is where a collective "psychotic intuition" kicked in!
"In the final analysis, the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of LAWS and COMMANDS as it was a matter of SPIRIT, of SHARED COMPREHENSION, of consonace and synchronization."
- The Holocaust in History, p.49
"Having set in motion deportations from the West, the Nazi's had to do SOMETHING with the Jews accumulating in Poland. When the "territorial" option in Russia was foreclosed, the Fuhrer decided on the Final Solution. Hitler and his relentless anti-Jewish ideology were the dynamic element, pressing for a solution to the "Jewish Question"; policy evolved, however, in the chaotic institutional environment of the Third Reich,where PLANLESSNESS and INTERNAL CONTRADICTIONS were the norm."
- ibid, p.43 - citing Adam, Judenpolitik
im Dritten Reich, 303-12, 355-61.
Brief summary thus far, "procrastination", "hesitation", disdain of orderly
work procedures, policy making occuring in "fits" and "starts", sustained effort tended to languish, coupled with "planlessness" and "internal contradictions" - WOW!!!!!!! mix it all together and what do you get?
spirit, shared comprehension, consonace and synchronization. You guys are TOO much!!!
"Neither Goebbels, Himmler, Goering, Frank, Hess, the Strasser brothers,
nor even Adolf Eichmann seems to have joined the Nazis because of anti-semitism."
- The Holocaust in History, p.11
"After a careful reexamination of autobiographical statements made by 581 early Nazis and originally collected by the sociologist Theodore Abel,
Peter Merkl was struck by "how LITTLE THE NAZI MOVEMENT WAS MOTIVATED BY SHARED, CONSTRUCTIVE GOALS OF ANY KIND" - even antisemitic ones. 1/3 of the sample showed no evidence of prejudice, and nearly half seemed uninterested in Jews."
- ibid. p.12, citing Peter Merkl, Political Violence under the Swastika:
581 early Nazis (Princeton NJ. 1975) 498-527
A lack of motivation coincides nicely with "procrastination", "planlessness", "internal contradictions", "fits and starts etc..." the final solution emerging through "improvisation" due to a "blind alley the Nazis had manouvered themselves into"...
"In Behemoth, a masterful study of the Third reich first published in 1944, the German emigre' Franz Neumann contended that "spontaneous, popular anti-semitism was still weak in Germany", and that "the German people are the least anti-semitic of all," Neumann noted the abscence of spontaneous attacks on Jews by the German public - in marked contrast to other countries- and suggested that this was all the more remarkable because of the INTENSITY OF THE VICOUS ANTI-JEWISH PROPAGANDA BEAMED at the German public during the Nazi years."
- ibid. p.87, citing Franz Neumann, Behemoth: The Structure and Practice of National Socialism, 1933-1944, rev. ed (Revised Edition? cool!!!) (New York 1944) 121
Ahem,.... in regards to anti-Jewish propaganda BEAMED at the German public. My father, whom I know well, and who lived in Nazi Germany has called that a bold faced LIE!!!!!!!!!!!! I like how they use the word "BEAMED" like some secret particle beam weapon.
"One of the things that gave Stalinism its prestige in the West, even (or especially) among those who recognized that its methods were immensely ruthless, was the abstract, Utopian notion that there was a CERTAIN HORRIBLE GRANDEUR in what was going on."
- Robert Conquest, Reflections on a Ravaged Century, p.7
Sometimes, you just feel like your back in Kindergarden
"Class, repeat after me; the German people are the least anti-semitic of all, the German people are the least anti-semitic of all..."
"Many have taken up this task as a sacred duty,...but along with this task, there is another that has inevitably grown stronger in recent years - to integrate the history of the holocaust into the general stream of historical consciousness and TO APPLY TO IT THE MODES OF DISCOURSE, THE SCHOLARLY TECHNIQUES, AND THE KINDS OF ANALYSES USED FOR ALL OTHER HISTORICAL ISSUES. In part this impulse derives from a concern that the history of the holocaust receive UNIVERSAL RECOGNITION."
- The Holocaust in History, preface, p.xiii such hypocrisy!!
"Throughout their long period of exile, 'the Jews had always been a minority, always in danger, but had learned that they could avert or survive destruction by placating and appeasing their enemies.' Having responded in this manner for so many centuries, ' the Jews could not act otherwise when confronted with Nazism. A 2000 year old lesson could not be unlearned; the Jews could not make the switch. They were helpless."
- ibid. p.109 citing Raul Hillberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, REVISED EDITION (New York, 1985) p.1030-31, 1038-39
?????? I have NO idea what he is talking about!!
"The Jews had always been a minority, ALWAYS IN DANGER"
"In 1948 "The Palestinian Issue" as it was known at the State Dept. had been long festering. Survivors of the holocaust were POURING into their Biblical homeland and demanding the creation of an independent Zionist state. For reasons both political and humanitarian, Truman wanted to help create a new state of Israel. He was, as well, UNDER TREMENDOUS PRESSURE FROM JEWISH GROUPS, WHOSE SUPPORT HE BADLY NEEDED TO STAY IN THE WHITE HOUSE."
- The Wise Men, Six Friends And The World They Made. Walter Issacson and Evan Thomas, p.451
Always a minority, always in danger - AND ALWAYS ABLE TO SECURE THE FATE OF AMERICAN PRESIDENTS?????????????[/quote]
That would explain why so many jews CHOSE TO GO WITH THE "GENOCIDAL" GERMANS when they evacuated eastern camps, including Auschwitz. Among them, Mr. Weasel and his daddy.
Poor "self-hating" people!
"As the number of survivng eyewitnesses to the period diminishes, the more freely will human imagination range in its attempts to achieve understanding. The horror of the events and the sufferings of the victims will not rob the new attempts-including new emotional and moral judgements - of legitimacy. The freedom of man's spirit suffers no restriction. Hence we must be aware that further study is liable to inflict new pain and WILL SOMETIMES REQUIRE THAT GENERALLY ACCEPTED VIEWS, WHICH, IT SEEMED, WERE FIRMLY AND SOLIDLY ESTABLISHED, BE ABANDONED." (emphasis mine)
- The Holocaust in History, Introduction, p.7 citing A.B. Yehoshua, Between Right and Right, trans. Arnold Schwartz (Garden City, N.Y., 1981), 5-6
As for myself, this is a classic example of the 'orthodoxy' and their adherents inspiring my revisionist research. I want the exterminationists to really reflect on Yehoshua's words, and acknowledge that this is about truth, not hatred.
- The Holocaust in History, Intro. p.4
And why were they NOT the occasion for a full recounting?
"Broadly speaking, general works scarcely mentioned the murder of European Jews, or did so in passing as one more atrocity in a particularly cruel war. This neglect prompted real fears among prominent Israelis that the holocaust was being forgotten."
- ibid. intro., p.4
need a bit more rope Mr. Marrus?
"...complaints flowed from the field, where murder squads were being demoralized by the inefficient and gruesome process of mass shooting. Ideas flowed from Berlin, where scientists attached to the Fuhrer's Chancellery received directives from Heydrich to design a vehicle using exhaust gas for killing people."
- The Holocaust in History, p.50
Of course Marrus doesn't substantiate any of this. Nor does he explain why the stereotypical, bloodthirsty, Jew hating Hollywood Nazi would be "demoralized" by engaging in his favourite sport!!
His venomous hatred continues;
"But now we are able to glimpse more humble contributors to the Final Solution - in the machine shops where the vans were assembled and repaired, in the procurement offices and dispatching agencies that sent them on their lethal missions. Officials there loathed bottlenecks and set about to make their work more effective. "Kept fully abreast of the problems arising in the field, they strove for ingenious technical adjustments to make their product more efficient and acceptable to its operators. What could not be remedied had to be blamed on someone else...Their greatest concern seemed to be that they might be deemed inadequate to their assigned task."
- idid., p.51, citing Browning, Fateful Months, 67; Ernst Klee, "Euthanasie" im NS Staat: Die "Vernichtung lebensunwerten Lebens" (Frankfurt am Main, 1983), 106-8, 112-15, 370
Let me get this straight. The murder squads were being demoralized by their "assigned task". Therefore, they were inefficient and unacceptable!!
Shoot zem! shoot zem all!!!
HEINRICH !!! - BUILD ME A VAN, MAKE IT YADDA CUBITS X YADDA, YADDA CUBITS!
"At a certain point, the machine needed no operator. It required NO MASTER PLAN AND BLUEPRINT (emphasis mine), 'In the final analysis the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands
as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and syncronization." This human machine generated its own momentum...,"operating with accelerating speed and an ever-widening destructive effect." Efficiency was its hallmark. "With an unfailing sense of direction and with an uncanny pathfinding ability, the German bureaucracy found the shortest path to the final goal."
- ibid., p.49, citing Hilberg, Destruction of the European Jews, I, ix. I, 9,28,55;III, 998. Cf. Fred E. Katz, "Implementation of the Holocaust: The Behaviour of Nazi Officials," Comparitive Studies in Society and History 24 (1982), 510-29
"An ideal introduction to the subject for any student of the Holocaust, and an authoritative summary for the expert." - Yehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem and the University of Wisconsin. (back cover)
"...incredible as it may seem, an "order" to send millions of people to their deaths may have been no more than a "nod" from Hitler to one of his lieutenants."
The Holocaust in History, p.46 citing Browning, "Zum Genesis der Endlosung," 105.Cf. Walter WuttkeGronenberg, Volk und Gesundheit: Heilen und Vernichten in Nationlsozialismus (Tubingen, 1982); Streit, Keine Kameraden, passim.
"Tell me Joseph, Heinrich - the Fuhrer today, was that a nod or a twitch?"
"I dont know! the Fuhrer remains in a constant state of improvisation, fits and starts as usual."
"did he wink?"
"Ya, but frankly, I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a nod, a twitch and the Fuhrers constipation."
"I know this! when he nods, twitches, passes wind while whistling the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th - he means business."
"I'll inform the troops!!"
As Michael R. Marrus reminds us,
"In the end it was Hitler, and his own determination to realize his anti-semitic fantasies, that made the difference. The implication is summed up in the title of a popular article on a related theme: "No Hitler, No Holocaust."
ibid., p.18 citing Milton Himmelfarb in Commentary, March 1984, 37-43
And with Hitler dead, Himmelfarbs title is so true!!
This is a very interesting thread you've put together. The absolute double-speak, illogical ranting of clowns like Marrus is astounding. This thread points out, with some humor, example after example.
I'm convinced most people have never read a single account of the alleged story, other than a snippet here and there thrown at them by the desperately reacting judeo-supremacist media.
The more one investigates the alleged 'holocau$t' story, the more absurd it becomes.
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