Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

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Hannover
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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Hannover » 2 weeks 6 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:16 pm)

Pia:
The text of one the alleged White Rose / Sophie Scholls pamphlets is quoted as saying:
"We do not want to discuss here the question of the Jews, nor do we want in this leaflet to compose a defense or apology. No, only by way of example do we want to site the fact that since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way. Here we see the most frightful crime against human dignity, a crime that is unparalleled in the whole of history. For Jews, too, are human beings - no matter what position we take with respect to the Jewish question - and a crime of this dimension has been perpetrated against human beings. Someone may say that the Jews deserve their fate. This assertion would be a monstrous impertinence; but let us assume that someone said this - what position has he then taken toward the fact that the entire Polish aristocratic youth is being annihilated? (May God grant that this program has not yet fully achieved its aim as yet!) All male offspring of the houses of the nobility between the ages of fifteen and twenty were transported to concentration camps in Germany and sentenced to forced labor, and all the girls of this age group were sent to Norway, into the bordellos of the SS!

Why tell you these things, since you are fully aware of them - or if not of these, then of other equally grave crimes committed by this frightful sub-humanity? Because here we touch on a problem which involves us deeply and forces us all to take thought. Why do German people behave so apathetically in the face of all these abominable crimes, crimes so unworthy of the human race? Hardly anyone thinks about that. It is accepted as fact and put out of mind. The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals; they give them the opportunity to carry on their depredations; and of course they do so. Is this a sign that the Germans are brutalized in their simplest human feelings, that no chord within them cries out at the sight of such deeds, that they have sunk into a fatal consciencelessness from which they will never, never awake? It seems to be so, and will certainly be so, if the German does not at last start up out of his stupor, if he does not protest wherever and whenever he can against this clique of criminal, if he shows no sympathy for these hundreds of thousands of victims. He must evidence not only sympathy; no, much more: a sense of complicity in guilt. "
see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10256

So how would Scholls know about the 'fate of the Jews'? The storyline says it all was top secret?

How would Scholls know that "three hundred thousand Jews have been [supposedly] murdered"? The storyline says it all was top secret?

How would Scholls know that: "All male offspring of the houses of the nobility between the ages of fifteen and twenty were transported to concentration camps in Germany and sentenced to forced labor, and all the girls of this age group were sent to Norway, into the bordellos of the SS!" ?

Does Pia Kahn really believe such nonsense?

Lot more to come on this fake 'holocaust' sub-narrative.

- Hannover


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Hektor » 2 weeks 6 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:40 pm)

Hannover wrote:Pia:
The text of one the alleged ,,,,guilt. "
see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10256

So how would Scholls know about the 'fate of the Jews'? The storyline says it all was top secret?

How would Scholls know that "three hundred thousand Jews have been [supposedly] murdered"? The storyline says it all was top secret?

How would Scholls know that: "All male offspring of the houses of the nobility between the ages of fifteen and twenty were transported to concentration camps in Germany and sentenced to forced labor, and all the girls of this age group were sent to Norway, into the bordellos of the SS!" ?

Does Pia Kahn really believe such nonsense?

Lot more to come on this fake 'holocaust' sub-narrative.

- Hannover

I think we discussed this a while ago.
But it seems that the content of the White Rose Pamphlets wasn't based on personal experiences, but on what they got from Allied radio stations.

For example those of Thomas Mann as cited in this book:
In November, 1941, Thomas Mann again said: “Three hundred thousand Serbs have been killed, not in the course of the war you waged against their country, but after it, and by you, the German people, at the behest of the infamous rabble which rules over you. The unspeakable crimes which have been perpetrated now, in Russia, and against the Poles and Jews, you know about them, but you prefer not to know out of a wholly justifiable fear that equally unspeakable crimes will be committed against you; out of fear that the hatred which is growing to colossal proportions will, one day, when the strength of your people and of your machines is exhausted, fall upon you and engulf you.”
Mann considers that the very desperation with which the Germans fight is to be attributed to this fear of punishment after the crime, a fear that is exploited by the Nazi leaders: “From now on, you feel you have to hold out to the very last, or you will suffer the tortures of Hell.” On Christmas Eve, 1941, Thomas Mann broadcast a special message: “German people, what are your thoughts on this feast day of peace; the feast of the birth of light, when Compassion born for man descended to earth? Am I right in thinking that you are filled with shame and an overwhelming longing—a longing to be innocent, to be free of the weight of the tremendous guilt under which you writhe? [. . .] Look around you and see what you have done!”

In January 1942, Thomas Mann’s message took on a desperate tone, in which one can detect great anger:

The news sounds unbelievable, but my sources are good. According to reports I have received, there is terrible grief in numerous Dutch Jewish families, in Amsterdam and other cities, where they mourn their sons who have met a horrifying death. Four hundred young Dutch Jews have been deported to Germany, to be used as guinea-pigs in experiments with poison gas. The virulence of this method of waging war, chivalrous and essentially German, a real Siegfried weapon, has proved itself against these young men, members of an inferior race. They are dead, killed for the sake of the New Order and to prove the skill of the master race in waging war. They were just about good enough for that purpose: they were Jews.

As I said, this story sounds incredible, and over the whole world, people will have difficulty in believing it. [. . .] The tendency . . . not to mention the inclination to regard such accounts as invented horror stories is widely diffused, and acts to the advantage of the enemy. But they are not mere stories—they are history. The longer the war lasts, the more desperately this people will be caught up in their guilt [. . .] you feel you have gone too far to be able to retreat, because you are seized with terror at the thought of liquidation, of reckoning, of expiation. [. . .] It is not victory that you must have, because that you cannot have. The expiation which you fight to avoid must be your own work, the work of the German people, whose armies, soon to be worn down and exhausted, form a part of it. It must come from within you . . . for only vengeance and punishment can come from outside—not purification [. . .] Any reform is a matter for the Germans themselves, and must be their concern alone.

In February 1942, Thomas Mann urged the German people “upon whose shoulders your Fuehrer has laid such a weight of guilt, enough to make you cringe with horror” to get rid of the Nazis and to become “a people whom others can live with,” before the cries of “The Nazis must be annihilated” turn into cries of “The Germans must be annihilated.”

https://archive.org/details/JanineChass ... ityAndMind


Now how would Thomas Mann have known about those things? How would he have verified if reports about this were true?
He admits that the stories aren't really credible and that people were actually realizing that this is propaganda.
And it's also clear that it is psychological warfare, demonstrated by the theme of German guilt. And this is then combined with a threat of revenge, even with annihilation.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 weeks 5 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:47 pm)

This is a rough translation of the flyer into English. The last page was changed a little bit, because Americans and Brits do not have to fear to go to jail for voicing dissenting opinions. Nevertheless there does exist censorship on campuses. If someone wants to exchange the German language pictures with the English counterparts then I will attach a word document for further editing.
Attachments
Freedom of Speech.pdf
(1015.53 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 weeks 5 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:51 pm)

No, I don't believe it Hannover. Read what I wrote:

"They protested - for right or wrong - the NSDAP policies in a non-violent way."

I am not stating anywhere that all of their allegations were truthful. I believe that they fell for allied propaganda like Hektor states. But that doesn't change their meaning. They stand for people who were executed for voicing their opinion. That's wrong.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:56 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:This is a rough translation of the flyer into English. The last page was changed a little bit, because Americans and Brits do not have to fear to go to jail for voicing dissenting opinions. Nevertheless there does exist censorship on campuses. If someone wants to exchange the German language pictures with the English counterparts then I will attach a word document for further editing.

Where can the photos with German texts be exchanged for photos with English text? Also, you said, "Human beings were exterminated in the homicidal gas chambers using the same poison. " It would be more accurate to say, "Human beings were said to have been exterminated in the homicidal gas chambers using the same poison.
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:01 pm)

All the photos can be found in this books with English captions:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/02-tcoa.pdf

Except for the very last photo, which can be found here:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/27-ape.pdf

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:04 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:All the photos can be found in this books with English captions:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/02-tcoa.pdf

Except for the very last photo, which can be found here:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/27-ape.pdf

Excellent. Will these be revised in a later edition?
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:07 pm)

I won't revise the photos in a later edition of the flyers and I don't think Germar will revise the photos in a later edition of his books. They haven't changed for years.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:12 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:I won't revise the photos in a later edition of the flyers and I don't think Germar will revise the photos in a later edition of his books. They haven't changed for years.
The problem is that these are English language fliers with German text photos. Average people will not be able to read that. The photos are fine, but the text under them needs to be different.
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:16 pm)

The text under most of the photos are copied from the books that I cited. So if you copy them from the English language versions of these books, then you get the text automatically. I directed you to the English language versions of the books.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 weeks 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:23 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:The text under most of the photos are copied from the books that I cited. So if you copy them from the English language versions of these books, then you get the text automatically. I directed you to the English language versions of the books.

I'll try that, thanks. Also - good job putting this onto the German Forum as well. We are winning this battle.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11864
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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Hektor » 2 weeks 3 hours ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:30 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:No, I don't believe it Hannover. Read what I wrote:

"They protested - for right or wrong - the NSDAP policies in a non-violent way."

I am not stating anywhere that all of their allegations were truthful. I believe that they fell for allied propaganda like Hektor states. But that doesn't change their meaning. They stand for people who were executed for voicing their opinion. That's wrong.

This is indeed how it is portrayed and most of the facts given are indeed correct IMO. However this omits a very important part of the story:
In 1943 Germany was entangled in a life and death struggle meaning war on several fronts. Propaganda against the government as well as spreading rumors and atrocity propaganda by the enemy was actually aiding and abetting the enemy. Also, ask yourself what they tried to achieve. To me that sounds like they wanted young Germans to raise against the government. That implies violence. And aiding and abetting the enemy facilitates violence (against your own nation). Sophie Scholl and her friends may not have used direct violence themselves. But still I won't consider them "non-violent" in the sense that is implied. Otherwise by that logic those people those driving a bank robbers gangs car or providing the shelter to them would have to be considered "non-violent" as well. Same applies to offenders threatening people.

The accusation against Sophie Scholl was High Treason, common law treason and "Wehrkraftzersetzung". That they didn't injure anybody directly could be used as mitigating circumstances. That doesn't change the fact that she was actually guilty as charged and the fact that their activities were aiding the enemy by working against the German war effort is actually aggravating.

Of course that the debate presupposes that Scholl & Co. were in the right. But that's an illegitimate approach in itself. One can not assume the wrongness of National Socialism and the German state a priori, unless you assume the same for all political ideologies and states. The facts are that The NS-government was the internationally recognized government of Germany and Germany was a sovereign state. That means that the NS-government could institute and execute legislation as they saw fit, one needs to acknowledge this, even if one disagrees with legislation and policies. A sovereign state also has got the right to wage war against other states. Again acknowledging this, doesn't necessarily mean condoning. But denying sovereignty and legitimacy a priori, does mean that there is no real basis for any debate. Those doing so are simply pushing agendas. They can get away with this, since the waters have been heavily muddied by Holocaust and (essentially Marxist) antifascist propaganda.

That said, if I'd spread flyers at that university, I'd definitely bring up Sophie Scholl and friends on that flyer. But I'd put it simple:
Sophie Scholl distributed flyers and was subsequently apprehended, convicted and executed for this.

Nothing more, nothing less. I won't make the comparison, but calling this into awareness will make sure there is some cognitive dissonance.

You need cognitive dissonance, when dealing with Holocaust believer, since it is necessary to first unfreeze them, before they even consider changing their mind, if they receive new facts on the matter. Otherwise you talk to someone sticking to his cult. Same mechanism there. Cults believe their creed, because they believe their leaders and they also have a feeling of "moral superiority and high ground" towards 'unbelievers'. That allows them to have a closed loop system, where they can dismiss any contradicting information out of hand.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Hannover » 2 weeks 1 hour ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:24 pm)

Pia Kahn,
What proof do you have that they were beheaded / decapitated, as you indicate on your flyer?

Do you have the original court records indicating that as the method of punishment that we can view? No.

Do we have any proof that what's alleged in the pamphlets is what they actually wrote? No.

Do the court records specify exactly the content of these pamphlets? ... which would be the case. No.
Therefore it appears that the pamphlet content was made much later and merely claimed to be the original pamphlets.

In fact, why can't we see the original verbatim court transcripts? All I've ever seen are modern" translations" of alleged "excerpts / summaries".
And certainly original pamphlets would have been entered into evidence and made as part of the permanent court records.

In reviewing the content we really see material which laughably reads like the Communist Manifesto written after the fact with no proof for the absurdly claimed 'beheading'. Reminds me of the silly 'piano wire' executions that are alleged AFTER the war.

Much more, as mentioned:
The White Rose
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4428

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 weeks 52 minutes ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:02 pm)

Hannover wrote:Pia Kahn,
What proof do you have that they were beheaded / decapitated, as you indicate on your flyer?

Do you have the original court records indicating that as the method of punishment that we can view? No.

Do we have any proof that what's alleged in the pamphlets is what they actually wrote? No.

Do the court records specify exactly the content of these pamphlets? ... which would be the case. No.
Therefore it appears that the pamphlet content was made much later and merely claimed to be the original pamphlets.

In fact, why can't we see the original verbatim court transcripts? All I've ever seen are modern" translations" of alleged "excerpts / summaries".
And certainly original pamphlets would have been entered into evidence and made as part of the permanent court records.

In reviewing the content we really see material which laughably reads like the Communist Manifesto written after the fact with no proof for the absurdly claimed 'beheading'. Reminds me of the silly 'piano wire' executions that are alleged AFTER the war.

Much more, as mentioned:
The White Rose
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4428

- Hannover

Your argument is that because we have no original documentation of their decapitation, it stands to reason that that is not necessarily her fatal injury. It is a fact that she is not currently alive. So she must have died somehow. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl the date of her death corresponds with her execution. So here's my question. If she wasn't executed;

1. Where were they post-February 22, 1943?

2.How did they die?

3. After their death, what was done in their memory to honour them?

4. What good would faking an execution do for the holocau$t industry?
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

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Re: Legalizing Holocaust Revisionism in Germany

Postby Hannover » 1 week 6 days ago (Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:00 pm)

JLAD said:
Your argument is that because we have no original documentation of their decapitation, it stands to reason that that is not necessarily her fatal injury. It is a fact that she is not currently alive. So she must have died somehow. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl the date of her death corresponds with her execution. So here's my question. If she wasn't executed;

1. Where were they post-February 22, 1943?

2.How did they die?

3. After their death, what was done in their memory to honour them?

4. What good would faking an execution do for the holocau$t industry?

Oh please, JLAD, pay attention. No one said she wasn't executed .... for treason.
No false, strawman arguments.
1. What are you talking about?
2. They were probably shot or hanged, the usual method for traitors.
The laughable & childish 'beheaded' lie has been added for dramatic effect as part of the propaganda created about them
3. Why would traitors be "honored' by Germany at that time. Of course, and as shown, a fake story has now been created around them and they are dishonestly 'honored'.

Why do you dodge my numerous points about this?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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