the little train 'photo'

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Hannover
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the little train 'photo'

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:09 pm)

I believe there has been previous mention of this 'photo' (see below) in the midst of other points, but I'd like to discuss it alone. Turpitz I'm sure has something to say.

This photo is curious:

- The train appears to be not on the rails, look at the alignment of the wheels vs. the tracks.

- Do aerial photos show his rail line? Note is's position by the crematorium and morgue cellar.

- The attempt to add alleged Zyklon-B 'chimneys/holes' on top of the morgue cellar is bungled, they don't align correctly according to tales by eyewitnesses
see: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=164

- Why is the little train engine so dark? The sun is hitting it square on.

- The men in the picture look incongruous.

Comments appreciated.

Hannover
[Edited by Moderator2] Click on photo to enlarge it.
Image
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Postby Juan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:34 pm)

The black blot at the right could be a kneeled jew about to be executed by locomotive-beheading. As sane as other stories :lol:

I see no problem with the wheels and the track. Neither with the locomotive color; we don't know the carts' color, to do a fair comparation. They could be green and the locomotive could be black, whatever. No relevance.

I see some distortion wit the guy at the right; he seems to be out of balance.

But there seems to be a problem with track gauge and perspective. Notice the nearer tracks (are those rail tracks?) compared with the "train" tracks. Which track gauge did the germans use?

Really, the strangest thing in the picture for me, is the crane.

Really, I don't realize the relevance of this picture. Falsifying supplies of coal?

The "chimneys" over the cellar don't have any implication. Ventilation nozzles, maybe?. Again, they were supposed to be "hiding" the Holocaust, didn't they?

[edited typing errors :oops: ]

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:26 pm)

The wheels of the cars behind the engine are clearly not on the track, IMO.
And, we do not see these tracks, situated as they are, in any of the aerial photos of the period.

Again, see: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=164 in regards to the added in 'Zykon-B chimneys'.

Ofcourse, keeping lies straight is always a problem. The alleged 'Zyklon-B chimneys' and the related gassings are supposed to have been secret, there was supposedly a cloaking wall around the alleged gas chambers in which these 'chimneys/holes' are said to have led. But here they bungled it again and we have an entirely exposed, visible site riddled with detectable fraud.

Oh how lies do come back to haunt.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:04 pm)

Those wheels do NOT sit on that track !

The first two look as if they are at leaning over at 45 degrees.

[Edited by Moderator2] Click on photo to enlarge it.
Image

Neither with the locomotive color; we don't know the carts' color, to do a fair comparation. They could be green and the locomotive could be black, whatever. No relevance.


It is not the colour that matters, it is the luminosity and radiance. Everything reflects light and has a refraction factor. This engine is made up of many materials yet each one is devoid of light interaction, even the 'glass' portals in the front of the engine. The whole engine is dead and does not interact within it's enviroment. It does not belong in this setting.

We know it is a forgery because aemathisphd has altered his version to try too hide the obvious lighting flaws in the original forgery.

Really, I don't realize the relevance of this picture. Falsifying supplies of coal?


This montage was used in the Irving trial too prove the existence of those pathetic supposed chicken wire things. No negative was produced

The "chimneys" over the cellar don't have any implication. Ventilation nozzles, maybe?.


There are no holes in the 'four inch' roof slab that coincide with the positioning of these drawn in boxes. So considering you 'CANNOT' join cured concrete and they always remain seperate entities. Just how does a ventilation shaft that doesn't penetrate the slab work?

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Postby Juan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:55 pm)

Again, I think that the wheels are irrelevant. The thing could have been pasted with tracks and all, specially if, as Hannover said, those tracks are nowhere to be found in Aerial photos. Looking for this kind of inconsistencies, I think, drives us apart from analizing the picture as a whole.

The shade stuff could be like you said.

As a whole, the train looks suspicious to a critical eye. Maybe the whole foreground was pasted over the desired background to hide something?

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:53 pm)

Hate to disagree gentlemen but the the train looks legitimate. Gauss doesn't question it either.

The train's black appearance can be accounted for by the aperture setting on the camera. Expecially in snowy conditions, the light setting will read and absorb the light for the majority of the shot. In a snowy, bright setting like the background, the camera will set for this light condition. Therefore a dark object in the foreground can and will become more darkly-shaded in relation to the overall scene.

If you look in front of the train you will see two rails. The reason the cars look to be off the tracks is because materials are piled right up to their edge. The reason for this is spillage of the contents within the crane dumping zone (work area). Or they braced them for strength on the outside.

The reason the train and personnel are part of the original shot is because the shadows are all perfectly alligned. The shadows from the officer and worker are both of the same direction and length. This is matched by that of the iron step to the locomotive cab.

This train is more like a construction site or mine train. The gauge is mine-small which explains the mine bucket cars. It is very possible that it was used in camp construction and the tracks were then pulled up. Laying this type of track is no great matter with lots of manpower about.


The real object of concern in this famous shot is Morgue I and its alleged Zyklon ports in the background. Gauss covers this, showing that the height, position, and shape don't match eye-witness descriptions or drawings. The individual 'chimneys' are not the same size or are they in line with claimed positions on the roof.

The real decider against gas chamber advocates is a comparison of the NIZKOR diagram for the mesh introduction device compared to this shot. If you look at these chimneys compared to that of the NIZKOR diagram they couldn't possibly be the same. Yet, they stick with them as being so...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:51 pm)

Yes, we will have to disagree, the wheels IMO are clearly off the tracks, Gauss or no. And I still cannot find any indication of the rail line on the aerial photos, I will double check.

I didn't realize there were mining operations at Birkenau, note the cars filled with large rocks (ore). What would a Birkenau construction site be doing with cars of large rocks? Doing what with them? Was the geology of the Auschwitz/Birkenau such that one could excavate such large rock material? I believe it was marshland.

And what was being constructed? Are there work orders, inventory lists, and construction details to support the assertion. One could have made the assertion this was the construction of the morgues (mostly below the surface), but clearly one morgue is already constructed and in the background of the photo, while the other was in a different location.

A mining train at Auschwitz/Birkenau, I don't think so.

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Malle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:52 pm)

Ladies and Gentlemen, hold your horses!

First of all, we must apply some logic to this photo. I must admit that I’m totally out of the blue here. Before we go to the point where we say it’s a fake, we must know something about it.

Like Hannover says, where doses this photo fit in aerial photos?

From my knowledge it doesn’t fit at all.

Do we have an eyewitness that confirms this photo?

No, we don’t to my knowledge.

When where this photo shot?

I don’t know.

So, back to basics, let us first know what evidence the Holocauster's has in their sleeve.
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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:58 pm)

Were there any small gauge railway lines in Auschwitz-Birkenau?
Airphotos?

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:41 am)

A common practice when building on wetlands is to dig drainage ditches alongside all built on areas. This allows the watertable to lower slightly, making the area more dry at the surface to prevent mire-like conditions during rainy times.

I believe you can see rock ledges in the background above the ore cars. I'm not sure if that isn't a hill on the horizon as well. Also, though I'm not aware of Birkenau's geological status, I would almost guarantee you that some kind of porous rock like limestone formed the bedrock there. Swamps can be mucky, but they are usually underlain by some kind of soft rock.

As we have seen from pictures, Birkenau was crossed by many deep drainage ditches. Those ditches had to be mined. I would assume that was what they were doing here, but that would only be a guess...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:31 am)

The background looks like smaller granulated material to me, maybe coal, or dirt, not the boulders we see in the mining cars.

I submit that a 1943 construction photo of the Central Sauna, which was not located in the area of this 'photo', reveals a large hole (4.3 m deep) that was dug after the water was pumped out, bedrock is not visible. One does see dirt aplenty piled up, but no boulders as shown in the this mining train.*

German documents abound in regards to Auschwitz/Birkenau inventories, purchase/requisition orders, work orders, drainage ditch management, groundwater studies, etc. There is no documentary evidence for a mining train and small gauge rail line.

According to Zentralbauleitung document RGVA, 502-1-157,:
the soil characteristics are poor. Underneath the humus soil is loam and chalky clay, with imbedded gravel and subterranean sand banks of lesser dimensions....**

No mention of bedrock.

I repeat, this rail line is not shown in aerial photos of the period.

* The Revisionist, v.1, n.1, 2003, p.14
** The Revisionist, v.1, n.1, 2003, p.13

Regards, Hannover
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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:39 am)

The whole photo looks legitimate excepting the supposed stacks on the cellar, of course, and those would be the only thing that needs addressing. The train poses nothing that would confirm any extermination program.

The train is probably transferring the earth dug out for the sewage treatment trenches which were built just behind Crema II.

A most relevant thing is the photo is just another example that the Germans weren't involved in constructing a facility for mass extermination.

The Germans photographed and left behind a copy of the murder weapon?

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jul 05, 2004 6:44 pm)

Juan says

Again, I think that the wheels are irrelevant.


Are you saying’ That if the wheels are not sitting on the track and are also on a cant, that it has no bearing on whether the montage has been tampered with? And you can still content yourself that the montage is genuine?

I find this extraordinary. Any form of tampering should automatically have the montage dismissed without argument at once.

Juan says:

Looking for this kind of inconsistencies, I think, drives us apart from analysing the picture as a whole.


I am sorry but that is wrong. You do not just look at the area that the forgeries ultimate message originates, you look at all aspects of the picture from one corner to the other. That is looking at the image as a whole.

Juan says:

As a whole, the train looks suspicious to a critical eye. Maybe the whole foreground was pasted over the desired background to hide something?


This might well be the case Juan. If you look at the engine carriage roof, there is something poking up from behind it which goes across the roof of the building. There is also something running along the engine roof.

Temporary on hold says:

The train's black appearance can be accounted for by the aperture setting on the camera. Expecially in snowy conditions, the light setting will read and absorb the light for the majority of the shot. In a snowy, bright setting like the background, the camera will set for this light condition. Therefore a dark object in the foreground can and will become more darkly-shaded in relation to the overall scene.


Why just the Engine and not the carriages? Even though they are of the same material? All the carriages have a completely different ambience to the engine. Nature and physics do not act in this way, only forgers. There are simply too many lighting inconsistencies between the front of the engine, the back of the pasted in man in striped pyjamas and the front of the carriages and the second pasted in man on the left. No amount of excuses can hide this.

The pasted in man in pyjamas with one foot, has a dark jacket on yet there is light on him. He obviously got cropped from a brighter photo than the engine, also when pasting him in, they missed a bit around his feet.

Image

Something tells me that head just doesn’t quite go with those pyjamas. It’s the caps you see, anyone wearing a peaked cap is the dastardly SS. Two brilliant white bits, one at his neck and one at his feet…hmmm!

Snowy conditions! Why do you think it has only snowed on one side of the track? Yet even on the side of the track you say it has snowed on, why is there none on the roof of the building? It might have all melted off, but there is not any on the morgue roof either and that was supposedly cool.


Temporary on hold says:

If you look in front of the train you will see two rails. The reason the cars look to be off the tracks is because materials are piled right up to their edge. The reason for this is spillage of the contents within the crane dumping zone (work area). Or they braced them for strength on the outside.


No sorry, the whole circumference of the wheel furthest to the right is clearly visible and has nothing at all piled up against it. It is floating! The two wheels on the left are clearly leaning inward also.

Temporary on hold says:

The reason the train and personnel are part of the original shot is because the shadows are all perfectly aligned. The shadows from the officer and worker are both of the same direction and length. This is matched by that of the iron step to the locomotive cab.


It would take two minutes to add shadows. If the pasted object had a shadow originally you could just copy the whole lot and not even have too add one!


This train is more like a construction site or mine train. The gauge is mine-small which explains the mine bucket cars. It is very possible that it was used in camp construction and the tracks were then pulled up. Laying this type of track is no great matter with lots of manpower about.


That may be so but it does not detract from the fact that it does not fit in this scene.
Also the track closest too us does not look narrow gauge. In fact it looks huge compared too the pasted man next to it. Is it waiting for the orient express? It also seems to have a kink in it and starts going up-hill.

The real object of concern in this famous shot is Morgue I and its alleged Zyklon ports in the background. Gauss covers this, showing that the height, position, and shape don't match eye-witness descriptions or drawings. The individual 'chimneys' are not the same size or are they in line with claimed positions on the roof.


There are many objects of concern in a forgery. Very rarely will a forger just be able to add what he wants, without having to compensate elsewhere.

There is no discussion about these drawn in boxes. I have already said ‘YOU CANNOT’ unite cured concrete with another. If you think otherwise, show me just one example of this.

TMoran says:

The whole photo looks legitimate excepting the supposed stacks on the cellar.


The lighting is all over the place on this montage. All the shadows are rounded instead of sharp. Only shadows introduced by forgers are rounded, natural shadows are well defined and sharp. Take a look at this window for example:

Image

It consists of three rounded blobs, the other is falsely shaded but better so. As has been said before. Why are these windows unnaturally black? They are inconsistent with their surroundings, because they added the light ‘before’ adding the shadows. So the light has not equalised them. The chimney has been shaded, that is why it has ill defined edges and rounded corners,

The montage has been split at the tracks, that is why there is such a contrast from one side of the track to the other. A light source has been added at the right of the image so as to create the illusion of light. That is also the reason for the unnatural over-exposure on the right. The light source enabled them to draw their box shadows, which was the only way to draw them, as they are too far in the distance for any detail. As always compensation was needed to diminish it’s obviousness, so a few windows were blacked out. The large chimney has had an outline added and shading down the side, as has the morgue roof.

On seeing this, the H-Industry project then tried too compensate and did this to the montage:

Image

As for the original negative…forget it! No photo like this has ever been taken.

Oh before I forget, can anyone tell me what this is?

Image

There are no shadows at his feet only ink splodges, which have also been put across his head by accident. He also has no feet!

A picture is worth a thousand words. An enlarged one, is worth ten thousand!

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:18 pm)

A look at the black faces of the ore cars and the engine will see similar darkening.

Really, we should step back and realize we are dealing with a washed-out, multi-reproduced internet copy that isn't worth anything as far as resolution or clarity. It is somewhat futile to try to make precise photo-evaluations from such a poor specimen. To be honest Turpitz, I can't make out anything from that blow-up of the "pyjama man". It's too blurry for use. I can't see anything there that would conflict with an officer in a coat with lighter pants.

I don't see anything in the consistency of the snow coverage that would force a separation of the foreground train scene with the background. If you look closely you can make out a smattering of trampled snow in the gravel section in front of the train. The photo quality is so poor it is hard to discern from the contrast and color. This remnant snow is on the train side of your montage divide. The lack of rooftop snow vs the rest of the scene is something easily seen in any snow scene anywhere.

I would also go further and suggest that the geometric perspective of the tracks visible before the engine would match perfectly the angle and placement of the carriage wheels. The reason they look like they are floating is because the small gauge track sits lower like street car rails and is more easily hidden by the dirt piled up to its edge.

You have to ask yourself why forgers would have rails sticking out from in front of the engine and then leave the rest of the train sitting in mid-air? You either have a foreground section of a train on tracks added or not. It goes against sense to think they would have added to the susceptibility of exposure by clipping and adding snips of train shots when they could have just used the whole thing. I assume the rails in front of the engine continued underneath the rest of the train? Did they take a picture of a train off of the tracks and clip it in?

But why even use the train montage in the first place? For scale? What is the advantage to the forgers to add a snipped mine train into the foreground? Were they trying to show that the tracks went right to the gas chamber? Simple Auschwitz research would disprove that. What would the purpose be then?


As for the shadows, as you say yourself, "if the pasted object had a shadow originally you could just copy the whole lot". Well, if you copied the whole lot there would be no wheels hanging in the air. I doubt any 'original' whole would have had a train without tracks.


I'm not sure if you can rightly conclude that this train has nothing to do with the scene. Until we can prove that mine-type trains weren't used for earth moving during the Birkenau additions we can't discount them as impossible. Mine rail is temporary. Unless you can match aerial photos to the precise period of this photo, the small gauge track isn't necessarily a permanent visible feature. But really, the issue of camp construction equipment is of rather minor importance compared to extermination evidence.


The obvious point of this disagreement is the need for care over questioning possibly correct things. In a situation where the opposition isn't coming back to answer its own conflicts, where politics allow believers to ignore pure examples with impunity, wrongly arguing minutea works against the purpose at hand. The risk of making a bad case for something like this speaks a thousand words for holocaust promoters who only need say nothing...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:19 am)

We seem to be arguing over the extent of manipulation. Rather like debating the extent of stupidity in the US foreign policy. We all know it's stupid, the question is how much.

We realize this photo has been tampered with because of the faked Zyklon-B chimneys/holes. Let's let the readers decide to what extent other elements in this 'photo' have been manipulated.

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