Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

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Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 23 hours ago (Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:34 pm)

The Italian edition is already published in two volumes.

Image Image

We see this at holocausthandbooks:
We have submitted a long list of open issues -- including remarks made by the HC Blog -- to the author for his review, and are awaiting his feedback.


I sent Germar Rudolf some links from HC's long critique of Mattogno's arguments. It is a huge blog that is in about 5 parts now. I directed his attention to the end of part 1 called Forgery Claims with special attention paid to the argument in footnote 27, part 2 , and part 3; only those parts deal with Mattogno's alleged justified skepticism about the nature of the 2nd Jaeger report being a forgery or a non forgery.

I also sent off two links which deal with Einsatzgruppen shooting children that for all purposes were not even trained to act as partisans committing sabotage and other acts.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2018/10/agreements-made-before-operation.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2018/09/bila-tserkva-gegenrasse-and-ideological.html
I also reminded him of a post I made years ago about Juozas Aleksynas in the topic Legitimate Nazi Atrocities.
viewtopic.php?p=74457#p74457



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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 18 hours ago (Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:43 pm)

The most glaring is this example from part 2.


The Jäger’s reports compared with each other and with other documentation about the killing of Jews

Mattogno claims that there are major contradictions between Jäger’s 1st and 2nd report and between the two Jäger Reports and other German documentation about the killing of Jews in Lithuania, namely the Operational Situation Reports USSR of the Einsatzgruppen.[34]

The total number of people executed until 10.9.1941, according to Jäger’s 1st report, is 76,355. The figures up to 10.9.1941 in the 2nd report, according to Mattogno, add up to 62,986.[35] How come this discrepancy? Actually there’s hardly any discrepancy at all; Mattogno just didn’t pay attention. He added up the 2nd report’s figures on pp. 1-4 up to 10.9.1941, which unlike the figures up to that date in the 1st report don’t include the following:

• Teilkommando des EK.3 in Dünaburg in der Zeit vom 13.7-21.8.1941 – 9,585
• Teilkommando des EK.3 in Wilna: 12.8. bis 1.9.41 Wilna-Stadt – 461
• 2.9.41 Wilna-Stadt – 3,700.

Adding these figures (which in the 2nd report appear on page 5 after the Kauen and RKH figures, logically so as these killings were scored up by different detachments of EK3, namely the TKD and the TKW) to the sum of figures on pp. 1-4 up to 10.9.1941 inclusive (which is not 62,986 but 62,983, as Jäger counted 1 too many for Alytus 13.08.1941 and 2 too many for Ukmerge on 19.08.1941) yields 76,349 executions until 10.9.41 inclusive. The difference in regard to the 1st report’s total is, just wait for it, 6. This tiny difference results from the following minor discrepancies:
• 19.7.41, Kauen - Fort Vll (Kaunas): 28 according to the 1st report, 26 according to the 2nd report (17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 male and 2 female Lithuanian communists, 1 German communist). Either the addition in the first report is incorrect, or the number of Jewesses and/or that of Lithuanian female communists, which are both not readable in the YVA copy, was different in the 1st than in the 2nd report, perhaps because 2 of the ladies had been counted twice (as Jewesses and as Lithuanian female communists).
• 13.8.41, Alytus: 719 according to the 1st report, 718 according to the 2nd report corrected by me (the partial figures, 617 Jews, 100 Jewesses and 1 criminal, add up to 718 instead of 719; the incorrect total is stated in both reports).[36]
• 16.8.41, Rokiskis (Rokiškis): 3,208 in the 1st report (the partial figures: 3,200 Jews,[37] 5 Lithuanian communists, 1 partisan, 1 Pole, were incorrectly added) vs. 3,207 in the 2nd report (partial figures were correctly added).
• 19.8.41, Ukmerge (Ukmergė): 645 according to the 1st report, 643 according to the 2nd report corrected by me (incorrect addition of partial figures: 298 Jews, 255 Jewesses, 88 Jewish children, 1 politruk, 1 Russian communist, yields 643 and not 645; the incorrect addition is in both reports).

The number of Jews killed on 6 September 1941 in Georgenburg (Jurbarkas) was changed from 41 in the 1st report to 412 in the 2nd report, according to Mattogno. Actually there was no change at all. It’s just that in the YVA copy of the 1st report the last digit of the figure, obviously a "2" (as this fits the added total) is not clearly visible. Again, Mattogno didn’t pay attention.

and again it goes on in part2 in resolving alleged discrepancies Mattogno thinks he found, but I will stop here.

This argument from HC looks pretty good. This, and other ones, Mattogn and Rudolf certainly must contend with.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:53 pm)

LOL. Get serious, Werd.

Per their alleged ‘holocaust by bullets’ the ‘holocau$t’ Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, so, anyone, please SHOW us the actual excavations, the enormous mass graves, & remains that are claimed to exist, their locations are allegedly known.
Is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?


Werd, you also failed to mention to this forum the communist history of the so called 'Jaeger Report'. No doubt Rudolf is laughing it up.

What we have merely more 'garbage in, garbage out' from the thoroughly discredited 'Holocaust Controversies' Zionists*

Then you said:
I also reminded him of a post I made years ago about Juozas Aleksynas in the topic Legitimate Nazi Atrocities.
viewtopic.php?p=74457#p74457
But why? Your Juozas Aleksynas post didn't hold up under scrutiny.

* 'Holocau$t Controversies' slapped silly for their lies about Hungarian Jews:
http://juergen-graf.vho.org/articles/hu ... ebate.html
and:
The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt”, An Analysis and Refutation of Factitious “Evidence,” Deceptions and Flawed Argumentation of the “Holocaust Controversies” Bloggers, By Jürgen Graf , Carlo Mattogno , Thomas Kues
https://codoh.com/library/document/3052/?lang=en

- Hannover

No enormous human remains as alleged, no 'holocaust'.
Last edited by Hannover on Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:00 am)

HC as far as I know doesn't dispute that more graves need to be excavated to shut revisionists up. But this is not about graves. This is about document analysis. Which means, I'm still waiting for anyone to comment on the apparent LACK of discrepancy between documents that Mattogno thinks he found, but HC has apparently found a reasonable explanation for.
Werd, you also failed to mention to this forum the communist history of the so called 'Jaeger Report'.

Are you talking about the 1st or the 2nd? Because only by reading their now 5 part series attacking Mattogno's Italian edition of the Einsatzgruppen, I was made aware of a 2nd Jaeger report.
Wikipedia:
The so-called Jäger Report, also Jaeger Report (full title: Complete tabulation of executions carried out in the Einsatzkommando 3 zone up to December 1, 1941)[1] was written on 1 December 1941 by Karl Jäger, commander of Einsatzkommando 3 (EK 3), a killing unit of Einsatzgruppe A which was attached to Army Group North during the Operation Barbarossa. It is the most detailed and precise surviving chronicle of the activities of one individual Einsatzkommando, and a key record documenting the Holocaust in Lithuania as well as in Latvia and Belarus.[2]
[...]
The Jäger Report is a tally sheet of actions by Einsatzkommando 3, including the Rollkommando Hamann killing squad.[1] The report keeps an almost daily running total of the murders of 137,346 people, the vast majority Jews, from 2 July 1941 to 25 November 1941. The report documents date and place of the massacres, number of victims and their breakdown into categories (Jews, communists, criminals, etc.).

And from HC, part 1:
The report dated 1.12.1941 by SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger, commander of Einsatzkommando (EK) 3 of Einsatzgruppe (EG) A (the 2nd Jäger Report) [1] is the most explicit surviving German document related to Nazi Germany’s largely successful endeavor to exterminate the Jewish population of Europe. It details the killing, between 4 July and 25 November 1941, of a total of 137,447 people mainly on the territory of Lithuania, of which 135,391 (98.50%) were Jews and 2,056 (1.50%) were non-Jews (communists, partisans, prisoners of war, mentally disabled people and others). [2]


[1] Gesamtaufstellung der im Bereich des EK. 3 bis zum 1. Dez. 1941 durchgeführten Exekutionen (Yad Vashem Archives, Record Group O.53 - Ludwigsburg, USSR Collection, File Number 3, pp. 87-95). The former The Holocaust History Project website featured a transcription and a translation (links to respective first page, from where the following pages can be accessed). This was the second report written by Jäger, following an earlier report dated 10.9.1941 (YVA O.53 - 3, pp. 82-85).


Also from part one.
That German judicial authorities examined the document’s authenticity not only stands to reason (given that the document might be used as evidence in indictments and challenged by defense attorneys, especially on grounds of its having been provided by the Soviets), but is also borne out by the means available to do such examination, which beside the context of other evidence (including without limitation Jäger’s deposition that will be addressed in the next article of this series) included at least three documents handwritten and hand-signed by Jäger that could be compared with each other and with the 2nd Jäger Report. One is a report that Jäger submitted on 9 February 1942 in response to Order Nr. 1331 from the BdS in Riga, instructing the commanders of EK 1 A in Reval, EK 1 B in Minsk and EK 3 in Kaunas to immediately submit information about executions carried out, broken down into A) Jews, B) communists, C) partisans, D) mental patients and E) others (to be specified), furthermore information about how many of the total were men, women and children. [25] The other two documents are farewell letters that Jäger wrote (before his suicide while imprisoned on remand) to the family of his son-in-law and to his interrogator Aedtner, in which he claimed that he had committed no crimes and heaped no guilt on himself, furthermore lamenting the "terrible fate" he had met. [26] It would be easy for a handwriting expert to establish that the handwriting and signature on these documents and the signature on the 2nd Jäger Report had been made by one and the same person.

With little to offer by way of arguments against the 2nd Jäger Report’s authenticity, [27] Mattogno turns to the "no less important" question of the report’s veracity. Mattogno’s arguments in this sense will be examined in the next articles of this series.


[27] On page 182 of his book, Mattogno makes another insinuation in the "forgery" direction, by pointing out, "without wanting to draw a particular conclusion" from this "anomaly", that the report’s heading "Der Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei u. des SD" should, as said Befehlshaber would be Jäger’s superior SS-Brigadeführer Dr. Stahlecker (the commandant of Einsatzgruppe A), have read "An den Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei u. des SD". While it is true that Jäger as Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (KdS) was subordinated to Stahlecker as Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (BdS), Mattogno overlooks the fact that the supposedly misworded heading is followed by "Einsatzkommando 3", suggesting that the document was meant to be a read as a report by the Einsatzkommando 3 "subsidiary", subordinated to the BdS, of the BdS organization. The 1st Jäger Report, dated 10 September 1941, contains the following remark below the date (YVA, O.53-3, p. 82): "Nur zur persönlichen Uebergabe an SS-Brigadefuehrer Dr. Stahlecker" ("Only for personal delivery to SS-Brigadeführer Dr. Stahlecker"). What seems to be the cover letter of the 2nd Jäger Report, dated 10.12.1941 (YVA, O.53-3, p. 87), also bears the letterhead "Der Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei u. des SD Einsatzkommando 3", and is addressed "An die Einsatzgruppe A SS-Brigadeführer Dr. Stahlecker in Riga". So there is no "anomaly" here. "Der Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei u. des SD Einsatzkommando 3" was Jaeger’s letterhead. Between the 1st and the 2nd report, as the YVA collection shows, Jäger also got himself typewriters that had the German Umlaut characters ("ä", "ö", "ü"). He furthermore managed to have "Der Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei u. des SD" printed in Deutsche Schrift on his letterhead.




5 comments:

Hans Metzner said...

Thanks, Roberto. Just some addition to your footnote 27:

Ereignismeldung UdSSR Nr. 146 of 15 December 1941 has Jäger's "Einsatzkommando 3" crossed out and replaced by "K. d. Sipo u. d. SD f. d. Gen.bez. Weißruthenien[!]". Ereignismeldung UdSSR Nr. 149 of 22 December 1941 refers to Jäger finally as "Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD für den Generalbezirk Litauen". This suggests that the structure of commanders of Sipo and SD in the Ostland was only created in December 1941. This is why Jäger did not report to Stahlecker as KdS Kauen yet on 1 December 1941 (or 10 December).

Wilhelm, Die Einsatzgrupe A der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD, p. 121 cites others docs Jäger sent in August/September as BdS/EK 3 or BdS Kauen from Institut für Zeitgeschichte, Fb 101/29.

Jäger writing as Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD Einsatzkommando 3 was a proper way before he got his KdS office. So the letterhead actually supports the authenticity of the Jäger report.
Saturday, August 18, 2018 10:46:00 pm

So again, there is no problem where Mattogno thinks there is one. This needs to be addressed by the revisionists.
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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:13 am)

Werd wrote:HC as far as I know doesn't dispute that more graves need to be excavated to shut revisionists up. But this is not about graves. This is about document analysis. Which means, I'm still waiting for anyone to comment on the apparent LACK of discrepancy between documents that Mattogno thinks he found, but HC has apparently found a reasonable explanation for.
Werd, you also failed to mention to this forum the communist history of the so called 'Jaeger Report'.

Are you talking about the 1st or the 2nd? Because only by reading their now 5 part series attacking Mattogno's Italian edition of the Einsatzgruppen, I was unaware of a 2nd Jaeger report.

Nonsense. It's all about the alleged enormous human remains. No moving the goal posts, no dodging here, Werd.

The alleged "documents" are necessarily bogus without the claimed enormous human remains to back them up..

Tell us about the communist history of the Jaeger Reports, Werd.

- Hannover

No enormous human remains as alleged, no Einsatzgruppen actions as alleged, and no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:17 am)

Werd, you cited Wikipedia. LOL

Seriously? Laughable Zionist controlled Wikipedia?
It’s amazing why anyone would cite Wikipedia as a reference for anything which Jews have a special interest in promoting.

Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139189

How Israel and Its Partisans Work to Censor the Internet
http://www.unz.com/article/how-israel-a ... =wikipedia

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:21 am)

Again, part 1 from HC:
As to why the Soviets made the 2nd Jäger Report available to West German judicial authorities, Mattogno speculates that this might have had something to do with a controversy about Soviet attempts to suppress the memory of the Babi Yar massacre, including a plan to build a new sports stadium at the place. This plan was opposed by Soviet writer Viktor Nekrassov and by Soviet poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko, who in September 1961 published his famous poem Babi Yar (Бабий Яр). [22] Yevtushenko was harshly criticized for this by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev in 1963. Mattogno reasons that in the context of Soviet accusations of "cosmopolitanism" against whoever demanded a memorial at Babi Yar making available the Jäger Report to West German judicial authorities would make no sense, and that from a purely theoretical point of view the Soviet attitude may seem suspicious. This is hardly a strong argument as it assumes that Soviet foreign and domestic policies were necessarily aligned and coordinated with each other and the Soviets wanted the document to be pronounced unauthentic in the west in order to weaken demands at memorializing the Nazi genocide of Soviet Jews. As to the West German Central Bureau’s having examined the document and found it authentic as mentioned by Wette, this is supposed to be taken "with a grain of salt" because Wette doesn’t exhibit the expertise on the document’s examination. [23]

The latter claim is not wholly accurate as Wette refers to a letter he received from the Central Bureau in 1989, with a 1963 file note of the Central Bureau about a number of original documents made available by the Soviet foreign ministry attached. [24] Moreover Mattogno doesn’t explain why, in his short biography of Jäger, Wette should have shown proof of something that historians and judicial authorities never professed any doubt about, namely the report’s authenticity.

And wikipedia:
The nine-page report was prepared in five copies,[1] but only one survives and is kept by the Special Archive, part of the Russian State Military Archive (ru) in Moscow.[7] The copy was discovered in 1944 when Red Army recaptured Lithuania, but it was not made known to scholars or the judiciary evaluating Nazi war crimes.[8] Only in 1963, during the in absentia trial of Hans Globke in East Germany[9] and four years after Jäger's suicide, Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs disclosed the document to the German Central Office of the State Justice Administrations for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes.[8] The document was first published in a Lithuanian collection of documents Masinės žudynės Lietuvoje in 1965[10] and in Western press by Adalbert Rückerl (de) in 1972 as a facsimile.[8]


[1]
Karl Jäger, Commander of the Security Police and the SD, Einsatzkommando 3 (December 1, 1941). "The Jaeger Report: A Chronicle of Nazi Mass Murder". English translation of the Report along with scanned images of the original. Kauen: The Holocaust History Project. webpages 1–9 with transcriptions of photostat facsimiles.

[7]
Gitelman, Zvi Y. (1997). Bitter Legacy: Confronting the Holocaust in the USSR. Indiana University Press. p. 103. ISBN 9780253333599.

[8]
Excerpt from Wette, Wolfram (2011). Karl Jäger. Mörder der litauischen Juden (in German). Frankfurt am Main: S. Fischer Verlag. pp. 28–29. ISBN 9783596190645. translated and published by Muehlenkamp, Roberto (April 28, 2012). "The Jäger Report (1)". Holocaust Controversies. Retrieved 2016-10-22.

[9]
Brazaitis, Juozas (1990). Vienų vieni (PDF) (in Lithuanian) (4th ed.). Vilnius: Viltis. p. 389. ISBN 5-89942-568-7.

[10]
Stankeras, Petras (2006). "Vokiečių saugumo policijos ir saugumo tarnybos (SD) vado institucija Lietuvos generalinėje srityje 1941-1944 metais]". Karo archyvas (in Lithuanian). 21: 206. ISSN 1392-6489.


So it sat in archives for decades because why Hannover? The Soviets conjured up a German at random and attached all these phony documents and crimes to his name with German typewriters in their possession?

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:31 am)

Also:
Escape, capture, and suicide
Jäger escaped capture by the Allies when the war ended, assumed a false identity, and was able to assimilate back into society as a farm hand until his report was discovered in March 1959. Arrested and charged with his crimes, Jäger committed suicide by hanging himself in prison in Hohenasperg while he was awaiting trial in June 1959.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Jäger

Was this a fake suicide? Was it a conspiracy, Hannover? The document was discovered in 1944 by the Soviets in Lithuania. And apparently, this was kept secret from those involved in the trial against Jaeger and probably the other trials of other Nazis. Only after his death was it made public. Why? HC has a theory.

[Werd you posted a lot of quotes with no comments or stated reason why you found them compelling. That is not debate. Please review the guidelines here which you should know by now. I removed those unsupported quotes. And, as was mentioned, you are posting about a book that is not available yet. WTH? I probably should have nixed the thread straight away because of that fact alone. Please debate in good faith. M1]
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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:36 am)

IOW, it came from the Soviet forgery factory, something the communist were notorious for,

'It just happened to have been sitting around in the communist archives'. LOL
Sure. I gotta bridge I'll sell you too.

Your use of Zionist controlled Wikipedia here is pathetic and utterly unreliable, as I have shown and you dodged.

Then you post previously debunked references, none of which presents proof of their claims. I can post references to books on witchcraft too.

You're laughably grasping at straws, Werd.

And too, you are posting comments on a book that no English speaker / reader has had a chance to read.
I call BS on that too.

- Hannover

No enormous human remains as alleged, no Einsatzgruppen actions as alleged, and no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 14 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:56 am)

Werd:
Was this a fake suicide? Was it a conspiracy, Hannover? The document was discovered in 1944 by the Soviets in Lithuania. And apparently, this was kept secret from those involved in the trial against Jaeger and probably the other trials of other Nazis. Only after his death was it made public. Why?
Gee, Werd you think that Germans weren't murderd in captivity? LOL

Readers, see:
Curious "Suicides"
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8248
and:
Brief List of the (very) Conveniently Deceased
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5226

Werd, you desperately try the tired 'conspiracy' angle, while failing to realize that conspiracies are proven everyday in courts of law all over the world. LOL

Yes, you just admitted to the communist provenance of the fake Jaeger Reports.
What? You, think the communists didn't have German language typewriters? LOL

You said:
Only after [Jaeger's] his death was it made public.

You ask: "Why?"

Because Jaeger was not alive to refute it. Hellooo.
You cannot be serious, Werd.

Still waiting for you to show us the claimed enormous human remains, Werd.

- Hannover

No enormous human remains as alleged, no Einsatzgruppen actions as alleged, and no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 14 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:13 am)

So if these reports are all faked, what does that mean, Hannover?

1. Karl Jaeger was never with any Einsatz unit in any of the places mentioned in the reports?
2. Karl Jaeger WAS in any of those places but they were only clearing out partisans and subversives and never harmed women and children?
3. There is an original, true Jaeger report that does NOT brag about making entire areas "Jew free" or talk of homicide against even women and children who were not armed? And the Soviets used it to make these fake documents and then burned the original?

Here's another question: What happened to the other copies of the report?

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 14 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:24 am)

Werd wrote:So if these reports are all faked, what does that mean, Hannover?

1. Karl Jaeger was never with any Einsatz unit in any of the places mentioned in the reports?
2. Karl Jaeger WAS in any of those places but they were only clearing out partisans and subversives and never harmed women and children?
3. There is an original, true Jaeger report that does NOT brag about making entire areas "Jew free" or talk of homicide against even women and children who were not armed? And the Soviets used it to make these fake documents and then burned the original?
4.Here's another question: What happened to the other copies of the report?
1. Is that a question or statement?
2. So you say he was in those places ... Yes? No?
3. But you said there was a real report, but then say it was burned? What are you talking about?
4. What report? The claimed real ones or the communists fakes.

You are very confused here, Werd. IOW, you're making no sense.

- Hannover

No enormous human remains as alleged, no Einsatzgruppen actions as alleged, and no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 14 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:35 am)

Apologies. Allow me to rephrase:

1. The two Jaeger reports that we do have obviously imply Jaeger was participating or supervising his Einsatz group wiping out Jews. Since you deny the authenticity of these two reports, do you believe Jaeger was even in those places, yes or no?
2. If you say yes, do you then believe his group was only attacking partisans and others engaged in acts of anti German sabotage? And that they left unarmed women and children alone?
3. If you say yes, that means you therefore also believe that these two Jaeger reports are Soviet fakes with made up atrocities. So how do you believe the Soviets concocted these 2 bogus Jaeger reports? Just entirely out of thin air, or do you believe there was some authentic Jaeger report that made no statements and showed no evidence of anti Jew homicide just because they were Jews? That the Soviets found some Jaeger report that only spoke of anti partisan murders, but then made fake documents and injected anti Jewish killing into it? As in, even killing unarmed Jewish women and children?
4. If the two Jaeger reports that we have today are just copies, where are the other copies?
Written by SS-Standartenfuehrer (Colonel) Karl Jaeger, commander of one of the "Einsatzkommandos" (EK 3), it provides a very detailed account of the murderous rampage of this "special squad" in Nazi-occupied USSR. Usually, the figures for Jews who were murdered by EK 3 are broken into "Jewish men", "Jewish women", and "Jewish children".

The report commences with:

"Secret Reich Business! 5 copies
Complete list of executions carried out in the
EK 3 area up to 1 December 1941."

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/

Are they simply lost to the ages with no hope of recovery?

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Hannover
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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Hannover » 3 weeks 13 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:57 am)

Werd wrote:Apologies. Allow me to rephrase:

1. The two Jaeger reports that we do have obviously imply Jaeger was participating or supervising his Einsatz group wiping out Jews. Since you deny the authenticity of these two reports, do you believe Jaeger was even in those places, yes or no?
2. If you say yes, do you then believe his group was only attacking partisans and others engaged in acts of anti German sabotage? And that they left unarmed women and children alone?
3. If you say yes, that means you therefore also believe that these two Jaeger reports are Soviet fakes with made up atrocities. So how do you believe the Soviets concocted these 2 bogus Jaeger reports? Just entirely out of thin air, or do you believe there was some authentic Jaeger report that made no statements and showed no evidence of anti Jew homicide just because they were Jews? That the Soviets found some Jaeger report that only spoke of anti partisan murders, but then made fake documents and injected anti Jewish killing into it? As in, even killing unarmed Jewish women and children?
4. If the two Jaeger reports that we have today are just copies, where are the other copies?
Written by SS-Standartenfuehrer (Colonel) Karl Jaeger, commander of one of the "Einsatzkommandos" (EK 3), it provides a very detailed account of the murderous rampage of this "special squad" in Nazi-occupied USSR. Usually, the figures for Jews who were murdered by EK 3 are broken into "Jewish men", "Jewish women", and "Jewish children".

The report commences with:

"Secret Reich Business! 5 copies
Complete list of executions carried out in the
EK 3 area up to 1 December 1941."

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/

Are they simply lost to the ages with no hope of recovery?

1. His service record would state whether he was at those places or not. Do you have it?
2. There is no proof of Einsatzgruppen executions of anyone other than non-uniformed, illegal combatants, aka: terrorists / partisans. As I have shown.
3. The communists were notorious for faking documents, as I have stated, and this forum has demonstrated. If the fakes were factual then we would be seeing the alleged enormous human remains in allegedly known places to back them up. We do not, we cannot ... because they never exited.
4. Did the communists make copies?

Your quoted text (which is not an original German document) is just that, quoted text, written by who knows who, to mean whatever they wanted it to mean, it's not supported by proof. As I have shown.
BTW, keeping statistics about the illegal, non-uniformed combatants would have been expected for such actions. Jews were highly active in these terrorist groups, the same sort of illegal combatants that the Allies executed as well.

Armed illegal "partisans", yes, some were children, cute but lethal, it's called WWII.
ImageImageImage
And the Allies had no problem shooting children engaged in combat.

- Hannover

No enormous human remains as alleged, no Einsatzgruppen actions as alleged, and no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Werd
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Re: Will HolocaustControversies slow Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book?

Postby Werd » 3 weeks 13 hours ago (Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:07 am)

1. His service record would state whether he was at those places or not. Do you have it?

No. I would not know where to begin looking for such a thing. I guess I would also like to know if there are other documents connected to Jaeger other than these reports which would vouch for his whereabouts on certain days.
2. There is no proof of Einsatzgruppen executions of anyone other than non-uniformed, illegal combatants, aka: terrorists / partisans. As I have shown.

So never any examples of killing unarmed Jews just for being Jews. I'm sure HC would disagree.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... gical.html
Bila Tserkva, 'Gegenrasse' and the Ideological Roots of the Nazi Murder of Jewish Children
Author: Jonathan Harrison
In August 1941, 90 Jewish children in Bila Tserkva, Ukraine, were shot by forces under the ultimate authority of General Field Marshall Walther von Reichenau. When Generalstabsoffizier Helmuth Groscurth attended a meeting to discuss the necessity of killing the children, the Field Commander, Reidl, gave him a justification based purely on ideological [weltanschauliche] grounds [facsimile here, translation here]. The subsequent shooting was described by August Haefner in testimony for the Callsen trial. Reichenau's reply to Groscurth confirmed his permission for these murders, whilst his order of a few weeks later echoed Reidl's emphasis on ideology by stating that "The soldier in the eastern territories is not merely a fighter according to the rules of the art of war but also a bearer of ruthless national ideology and the avenger of bestialities which have been inflicted upon German and racially related nations." Reichenau thus reflected a worldview (Weltanschauung) that the "pitiless extermination of foreign treachery" via a "severe but just revenge on subhuman Jewry" was necessary in order to "to liberate the German people once forever from the Asiatic-Jewish danger." An important task for historians is to address the roots of those beliefs and how they differed from the racism directed at most other Nazi victims of mass murder, such as Slavs.


3... If the fakes were factual then we would be seeing the enormous human remains to back them up. We do not.

Would we? The holocaust lobby says these two Jaeger reports are real. Okay, are there any coordinates in those reports to where these unopened mass graves are since apparently Aktion 1005 didn't get all the graves opened and their contents burned? Or are we to just rely on witness testimony and hopefully get lucky as Debois did a few times. I.E. Busk graves.
Did the communists make copies?

I'm not sure why forgers would take the time to do fake multiple copies of the same document. Although according to you, they faked TWO Jaeger reports.


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