Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Callahan
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:40 am

Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Callahan » 11 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:22 am)

So, I came across an old thread from 2012 about some very ridiculous testimony...

The Most Ridiculous Testimony
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7033

There seem to be a lot of bad liars... it got me wondering, what do you suppose is the ratio between obviously false testimony (such as most of the stories linked above) to incriminating testimony (i.e. "proving" extermination) that is generally regarded as credible by the establishment? Is it 1:20? 1:10? 1:5???

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9915
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Hannover » 11 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:43 am)

I have yet to see any so called "testimony" which proves the impossible.

- Hannover

The "Holocau$t Industry" in court:
'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions upon millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are ... but, but, well, umm, we can't show the court the human remains. You must trust us, we're Zionists.'
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
JLAD Prove Me Wrong
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 11 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:50 am)

Hannover wrote:I have yet to see any so called "testimony" which proves the impossible.


I found some for you. THey survived the brainwashng!

If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

https://freespeechmonika.wordpress.com/ ... t-details/

User avatar
Callahan
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:40 am

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Callahan » 11 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:56 pm)

Hannover wrote:I have yet to see any so called "testimony" which proves the impossible.

Agreed! However, in this case, I'm only trying to get an idea of how many individuals can be exposed as liars at face-value (in a way that even establishment-defenders would probably be willing to at least partially concede) versus how many individuals offer testimony that is regarded as adding substantial weight to the official narrative.

Going through Spielberg's Shoah foundation website awhile back, there used to be a lot more interviews available for viewing online; last I checked it was mostly "featured" interviews on the site and you had to visit the university to see the rest... But of the ones that I perused randomly at the time, there were hardly any claims that could be considered supportive of 'supreme evil' or 'extermination' claims. In the vast majority of cases, Holocaust "survivors" don't claim anything that falls outside of the scope of the Revisionist account. I spent a few hours searching and the only 'extermination' claims I saw were those among the "featured" interviews (hmm.. I wonder why they are "featured").

From what I understand, there have also been very few "eyewitnesses" who even claim to have witnessed substantial firsthand evidence of gas chambers, either. I suspect numbers in the dozens or hundreds, at most.

I think it makes a great argument to point out that for every x number of people making significant (albeit unsupported, unverifiable) claims about 'extermination' and 'gas chambers', there are at least y cases of near-universal consensus about an obvious liar (such as the several dozen linked above).

Hieldner
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:21 am

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Hieldner » 11 months 3 weeks ago (Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:47 pm)

From what I understand, there have also been very few "eyewitnesses" who even claim to have witnessed substantial firsthand evidence of gas chambers, either. I suspect numbers in the dozens or hundreds, at most.

Conducting a search at http://vhaonline.usc.edu/Search for “gas chambers” yields 523 results, out of a total of 53,984 holocaust testimonies (select category holocaust on the left—there are an additional 646 non-Communist atrocities included in the video collection to make the archive look less like a racial commiseration endeavour for the benefit of the Jews). Searching for “soap rumours” yields 458 results. We arrive at a gas/soap claim ratio of ~ 1.14. For every 8 claims of homicidal gas chambers there are 7 human soap claims, officially regarded as nonsense, and only ~1% of all of Spielberg’s video material contains gas chamber testimony. These numbers disprove holocaust peddlers who accuse revisionists of insinuating that “all the survivors lied”.

Collecting these numbers is possible because Spielberg’s minions have carefully tagged their videos with timestamps. Revisionists should do the same with videos from other archives and with additional tags, e.g. for testimony of other products allegedly made from Jews, before they remove public access to their videos like they did with many of those included in Eric Hunt’s documentaries.
»[Holocaust soap] odor, if captured and retained… would preserve the core of an individual soul… The undesirable smell of the extract spoke of the spectral Derridian trace… that continued to remind its consumers of their own bio-ontology.«—B. Shallcross

User avatar
Callahan
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:40 am

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Callahan » 11 months 3 weeks ago (Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:15 pm)

Hieldner, I am glad to see it is now accessible via the web, and that is a very revealing find! I followed your lead and searched for "gas chambers" and similar phrases regarding alleged gassings. I then went through a random sampling of the results I found, particularly under the category of "Jewish Survivors". More than half of the testimony I came upon which mentioned 'gassings' in any way referred to the alleged 'chamber' at Dachau--which is now known by all to have never been as such. Of the handful that mentioned any other camp (namely Auschwitz), these witnesses did not even claim to have witnessed evidence of gassings but, rather, simply referred to the crematoria which they [later, or evidently by rumor] came to regard as "the gas chamber". Several spoke only in passing about having 'just known' that people were being gassed in gas chambers in the camp.

In an hour or so of searching, I did not find a single mention of a firsthand encounter with anything that could be interpreted as actual evidence of a gas chamber. Thus, as it turns out, Jews for the most part are not even claiming to have witnessed 'gas chambers'. What is sad is that some of these people seem genuinely hurt in believing that their friends and relatives were slaughtered in such an unspeakable way rather than simply separated in the vast camp networks and complications of the greatest war in human history. All the more reason that those few Jews who sought 'revenge by deception' and other propagandists who have sustained these massive lies are enemies of all people. I would say, therefore, this is a valuable bit of information to mention whenever discussing the importance of Revisionism with (open-minded, intelligent) Jewish people.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Lamprecht » 11 months 1 week ago (Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:30 pm)

Hieldner wrote:
From what I understand, there have also been very few "eyewitnesses" who even claim to have witnessed substantial firsthand evidence of gas chambers, either. I suspect numbers in the dozens or hundreds, at most.

Conducting a search at http://vhaonline.usc.edu/Search for “gas chambers” yields 523 results, out of a total of 53,984 holocaust testimonies (select category holocaust on the left—there are an additional 646 non-Communist atrocities included in the video collection to make the archive look less like a racial commiseration endeavour for the benefit of the Jews). Searching for “soap rumours” yields 458 results. We arrive at a gas/soap claim ratio of ~ 1.14. For every 8 claims of homicidal gas chambers there are 7 human soap claims, officially regarded as nonsense, and only ~1% of all of Spielberg’s video material contains gas chamber testimony. These numbers disprove holocaust peddlers who accuse revisionists of insinuating that “all the survivors lied”.

Collecting these numbers is possible because Spielberg’s minions have carefully tagged their videos with timestamps. Revisionists should do the same with videos from other archives and with additional tags, e.g. for testimony of other products allegedly made from Jews, before they remove public access to their videos like they did with many of those included in Eric Hunt’s documentaries.


This is a handy tool. I noticed that 53,984 is actually the total number of testimonies on the website, which includes non-Holocaust testmonies. from the sidebar:

Collections:

- All
- - Holocaust
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (51,467)
- - - - Florida Holocaust Museum (25)
- - - - Holocaust Memorial Center Zekelman Family Campus (25)
- - - - Holocaust Museum Houston (277)
- - - - JFCS Holocaust Center (923)
- - - - Museum of Jewish Heritage (10)
- - - Canadian Collections (1,257)
- - - - Alex Dworkin Canadian Jewish Archives (64)
- - - - Calgary Jewish Federation (10)
- - - - Concordia University Centre for Oral History (30)
- - - - Freeman Family Foundation (52)
- - - - Jewish Archives of Edmonton & N Alberta (15)
- - - - Living Testimonies, McGill University (104)
- - - - Montreal Holocaust Museum (573)
- - - - Neuberger Holocaust Education Centre (406)
- - - - Ottawa Jewish Archives (3)

- - Armenian Genocide
- - - - Armenian Film Foundation (333)
- - - - Hovannisian Oral History Collection (10)
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (1)
- - Nanjing Massacre
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (101)
- - Genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda
- - - - Holocaust Museum Houston (1)
- - - - Kigali Genocide Memorial (69)
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (16)
- - Contemporary Antisemitism
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (59)
- - Guatemalan Genocide
- - - - Fundación de Antropologia Forense de Guatemala (30)
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (1)
- - Anti-Rohingya Mass Violence (August-October 2017)
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (11)
- - Cambodian Genocide
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (5)
- - South Sudan Civil War
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (5)
- - Central African Republic Conflict
- - - - USC Shoah Foundation (4)


I first searched "gas" and found over 1,433 results - but it included some people with "gas" in their name ( Ildephonse Gasana, Regina Gaska, Andrei Stepanovich Gaseeva, etc). Then I searched "Gas chamber" exact phrase and got 12 results; under all words it was 528 results.

Then I noticed another page, where you can search by key words:

http://vhaonline.usc.edu/keywordsearch/keywordSearch

Some that I found:
  • gas chambers (used in 503 testimonies)
  • gas vans (used in 188 testimonies)
  • gassings (used in 149 testimonies)
  • human soap rumors (used in 458 testimonies)
  • gas chamber cleaning forced labor (used in 12 testimonies)
  • electrocutions (used in 116 testimonies)
  • live burials (used in 26 testimonies)
  • Mengele, Josef (used in 2,670 testimonies)
  • crucifixions (used in 4 testimonies) - "Killing by means of nailing victims to a wooden cross and letting them hang until death"
  • burnings (used in 351 testimonies) - "The act of killing, or intending to kill, through setting alight and/or incinerating."
  • body part processing (used in 79 testimonies) - "In various Nazi concentration camps (e.g. Buchenwald, Dachau, Mauthausen, Gusen, Sachsenhausen) body parts of dead prisoners were processed in camp infirmaries, often for commercial purposes, mostly prepared by prisoner doctors upon the order of SS camp doctors. Such products were e.g. dried pieces of skin containing tattoos, various articles and memorabilia for camp personnel made out of human skin or other body parts, shrunken heads, skeletons, skulls for medical institutions etc."

If you search for keywords "gas chambers" OR "gas vans" OR "gassings" you will find for the "Holocaust" section:
Testimonies: 797
Segments: 989

If you change the "Experience group" to only "Jewish Survivor" the number of testimonies for these 3 claims goes down to 737 -- this is out of a total of 51,386 testimonies for "Holocaust" category and "Jewish Survivors" experience group

Of course, the Holocaust believers claim is that only a few camps had actual gas chambers, but it is surprising that Josef Mengele is tagged in 2,670 testimonies, compared to 797 for gas chambers, gas vans, or gassings... that means Mengele was mentioned over three times as often as gassings in this collection.

Another point is that many so-called "Holocaust survivors" weren't even in the camps -- it seems, any jewish civilian who was in mainland Europe during WW2 can count as a "holocaust survivor".

To try to control for this, we can combine "gas chamber" tags with "Auschwitz" tags.

We get these values for tags related to Auschwitz:
  • Auschwitz (Poland : Concentration Camp)(generic) (used in 3,849 testimonies)
  • Auschwitz II-Birkenau (Poland : Death Camp) (used in 9,247 testimonies)
  • Auschwitz I (Poland : Concentration Camp) (used in 1,392 testimonies)
  • Auschwitz III-Monowitz (Poland : Concentration Camp) (used in 799 testimonies)

Combining all of these and only filtering by "jewish survivor" experience group, gives us a total of 12,229 testimonies at Auschwitz.

Combining
Auschwitz (Poland : Concentration Camp)(generic) -- TOTAL: 1,392 in the "jewish survivor" group
AND
"Gas chambers"
Gives us: 57 testimonies in the "jewish survivor" experience group

Simple division gives us a result of about 4%


Combining
Auschwitz II-Birkenau (Poland : Death Camp) -- TOTAL: 9,166 in the "jewish survivor" group
AND
"Gas chambers"
Gives us: 277 testimonies in the "jewish survivor" experience group

Simple division gives us a result of about 3%.

This may be an understatement, since including "gassings" as a third tag reduces the total results from 277 to 10, suggesting that 10 of the Birkenau testimonies have both "gassing" and "gas chamber" tagged. A total of 67 Birkenau testimonies have "gassings" tagged, so adding that 67 (minus the 10 which were also tagged with "gas chambers") would give us then 334 total Birkenau testimonies (by Jewish survivors) which mention gassings or gas chambers.
This raises the figure only to 3.6%


Interestingly, combining "Dachau (Germany : Concentration Camp) (used in 1,535 testimonies)" and "gas chambers" gives us 7 testimonies. "Buchenwald (Germany : Concentration Camp) (used in 2,433 testimonies)" and "gas chambers" gives us 4 testimonies.


So, from this source, it seems reasonable to suggest that fewer than 5% of jewish Auschwitz/Birkenau survivors are even tagged as mentioning gas chambers. :shock: :shock: :shock:


Note: I didn't actually need to verify my email on this website, so it the registration will work fine if you don't put your regular email
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Lamprecht » 11 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:19 pm)

According to this source, it is over half:
Over half of the 20,000 testimonies from Holocaust survivors on record at Yad Vashem are “unreliable” and have never been used as evidence in Nazi war crimes trials [according to archives director Shmuel Krakowski], Krakowski says that many survivors, wanting “to be part of history,” may have let their imaginations run away with them.
“Many were never in the place where they claim to have witnessed atrocities, while others relied on second-hand information given them by friends or passing strangers according to Krakowski. A large number of testimonies on file were later proved inaccurate when locations and dates could not pass an expert historian’s appraisal.
SOURCE: B. Amouyal, "Doubts over evidence of camp survivors," Jerusalem Post (Israel), August 17, 1986, p. 1


More:
Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable... Most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity. Diaries are rare, and so are authentic documents about the making, transmission, and implementation of the extermination policy. But additional evidence may still come to light. Private journals and official papers are likely to surface. Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet archives may well yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In addition, excavations at the killing sites and in their immediate environs may also bring forth new information.
SOURCE: Arno J. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? - The "Final Solution" in History, New York, Pantheon Books. 1988, pp. 362-363


Many thousands of oral histories by survivors recounting their experiences exist in countries and archives around the world. Their quality and usefulness vary significantly according to the informant's memory, grasp of events, insights and of course accuracy. The longer the time lapsed [between the event and the testimony] the less likely the informant has retained freshness of recollection. The transcribed testimonies I have examined have been full of errors in dates, names of participants, and places, and there are evident misunderstandings of the events themselves. To the unwary researcher some of the accounts can be more hazard than help.

SOURCE: Dawidowicz, L. 1981. The Holocaust and the Historians. Harvard University Press. pp. 177
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Ratio of obvious liars to claimed "eyewitnesses"?

Postby Lamprecht » 9 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:53 pm)

Here is a scan of the first quote in the last post.
Doubts_over_evidence_of_camp_s (1).jpg
Doubts_over_evidence_of_camp_s (1).jpg (272.22 KiB) Viewed 537 times




And some additional quotes, from this good thread:

quotes for no evidence or little evidence of the 'holocaust'
viewtopic.php?t=11013



“For the scientific historian a witness statement does not represent real history. It is an object of history. A witness statement counts for little, many witnesses’ statements count for no more, if there is no solid document to support them. One could say without much exaggeration, the principle of scientific historiography is, No paper(s), no proven facts.” – French historian Jacques Baynac.

“Survivor accounts of critical events are typical of all testimony, that is, they are full of discrepancies. About all matters both trivial and significant, the evidence is nearly always in dispute. In part the unreliability of these accounts derives from imperfect observation and flawed memory, but in larger part from the circumstance that they are not constructed exclusively on the basis of firsthand experience. In order to present a coherent narrative, the author has likely included a large measure of hearsay, gossip, rumor, assumption, speculation, and hypothesis.” – Jewish holocaust historian Lucy Dawidowicz, A Holocaust Reader, 1976.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 5 guests