Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

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Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:27 pm)

I was having a debate over the meaning of "Final Solution" and this was brought up. I couldn't find it addressed at this forum yet.

The phrase in question is "der Endlösung zugeführt wurden" ( Brought to the final solution)

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ution.html

"Brought to the Final Solution"

On January 3, 1946, Wisliceny admitted in court that Jews sent to Auschwitz from Hungary were "brought to the final solution". On February 19, 1944, a document on executions in Piaski gave a list of Jews who were "brought to the final solution." ["der Endlösung zugeführt wurden" [YVA O.53/82, pp.50-52]. These types of executions had been defined by Heydrich as special treatment [Sonderbehandlung], as quoted here. We therefore have a convergence of documentation and testimony that "final solution" in the context of SS operations in Auschwitz and in Poland generally meant killing, albeit disguised as "special treatment" [Sonderbehandlung] in which death was meted out via extralegal executions.

The full document is in VEJ 9, Dok. 285, pp.784-787. A scan of the document is below.

Image


Note: click the blog post to see where the documents link to

Mentioned is the testimony of Dieter Wisliceny where he specifically says "brought to the final solution" means execution.

Testimony of Dieter Wisliceny at Nuremberg on January 3, 1946:

Code: Select all

LT. COL. BROOKHART: And what was the ultimate disposition of the Jews sent to Auschwitz from Greece?

WISLICENY: They were without exception destined for the so-called final solution.

LT. COL. BROOKHART: During the collection period were these Jews called upon to furnish their own subsistence?

WISLICENY: I did not quite understand the question.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Brookhart, does it matter, if they were "brought to the final solution" which I suppose means death?

LT. COL. BROOKHART: Your Honor, this witness will testify that 280 million drachmas were deposited in the Greek National Bank for the subsistence of these people and that this amount was later appropriated by the German Military Administration. That is all I have hoped to prove by this question.

[Turning to the witness.] Is that a correct statement of your testimony? .

WISLICENY: Yes. The cash which the Jews possessed was taken away and put into a common account at the Bank of Greece. After the Jews had been evacuated from Salonika this account was taken over by the German Military Administration. About 280 million drachmas were involved.
...
WISLICENY: They were, without exception, taken to Auschwitz and brought to the final solution.

LT. COL. BROOKHART: Do you mean they were killed?

WISLICENY: Yes, with the exception of perhaps 25-30% who were used for labor purposes. I here refer to a previously mentioned conversation on this matter between Hoess and Eichmann in Budapest.
SOURCE: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Wislicen ... 30146.html




Additionally, from: http://db.yadvashem.org/deportation/res ... Id=3656575

19/02/1944
Report concerning the discovery of preparations to escape from the Krasnik labor camp, including: "... by means of various informers, it was uncovered that a number of Jews planned to escape the labor camp of Krasnik... eight Jews were arrested, 13/02/1944, due to interrogations... the information of the informers turned out to be correct... 12 forged Polish identity cards and 21,490 Zloty in cash were found... among those Jews who possessed the Polish identity cards, was foremost the Jewish camp commander, Peisach Kawa and his family, further Jewish guards and supervisors (Kapos), physicians and paramedics ... in the course of the investigations, it leaked out that an unknown Jew came from Warsaw to Krasnik, where he sold forged identity cards for the price of 5,000 Zloty each... despite tough interrogation, the identity of that Jew could not yet be revealed... the following named Jews were associated with the escape attempt and they were "brought to the final solution", 14/02/1944 and 18/02/1944 (followed by a list of names of 44 executed Jews) ... during the investigations, a number of Jews escaped from the labor camp: on 14/02/1944 the Jew Jankiel Ehrlich, on 16/02/1944 the Jew Chil Rolnik, and on 17/02/1944, another 18 Jewish forced laborers (followed by a list of names of 18 escaped Jews)... by order of camp commander SS-Unterscharfuehrer Groeger, 20 close relatives of the escaped persons have been deported... from the listed Jews on the run, numbers 4 and 12 of the below named persons have meanwhile been tracked down ... after interrogations, they too will be "brought to the final solution"... (pp. 50-52), (page 51 contains a list of 44 names of executed Jews), (page 52 contains a list of 18 names of Jews on the run, two of whom have been tracked down again),


The Holocast believer argument is, that the "Final Solution" meant killing the Jews (in contrast to the documents which define it as resettlement/deportation as "code words"). It seems, in this instance, it may have been.

I was also referencing the testimony of Hans Lammers, from: https://inconvenienthistory.com/10/3/6089

Finally, however, in 1943, rumors cropped up that Jews were being killed. I had no jurisdiction in this field; it was merely that I occasionally received complaints and on the basis of these complaints I investigated the rumors. But, as far as I could tell, at any rate, these rumors always proved to be only rumors. Every one said he had heard it from somebody else and nobody wanted to make a definite statement. I am, in fact, of the opinion that these rumors were based mostly on foreign broadcasts and that the people just did not want to say from where they had the information. That caused me once more to undertake an investigation of this matter. First of all, since I, for my part, could not initiate investigations of matters under Himmler’s jurisdiction, I addressed myself to Himmler once again. Himmler denied any legal killings and told me, with reference to the order from the Führer, that it was his duty to evacuate the Jews and that during such evacuations, which also involved old and sick people, of course there were cases of death, there were accidents, there were attacks by enemy aircraft. He added too, that there were revolts, which of course he had to suppress severely and with bloodshed, as a warning. For the rest, he said that these people were being accommodated in camps in the East. He brought out a lot of pictures and albums and showed me the work that was being done in these camps by the Jews and how they worked for the war needs, the shoemakers shops, tailors shops, and so forth. He told me:

“This is the order of the Führer; if you believe that you have to take action against it then tell the Führer and tell me the names of the people who have made these reports to you.”



Professor Butz has stated, what I think is agreed upon by all revisionists:
"The 'final solution' meant the expulsion of all Jews from the German sphere of influence in Europe. After the invasion of Russia, its specific meaning was the resettlement of these Jews in the East. The German documents at every level (among those that have survived) express this unambiguously, a fact which is conceded even by the bearers of the extermination legend, who are forced to declare that this must just be code terminology for extermination."

Of course, prisoners attempting to escape and being executed as a result is not 'genocide' or even a war crime, but rather common practice not only in war time, but outside of war too. I'm sure if you search google, you can find examples of people executed or given the death penalty for failed prison escapes.

The issue here, is that these people are being executed (for what would be generally considered a legitimate reason, especially during war time) and it is said they are "brought to the final solution".

Am I missing something here?

Perhaps it is something with the word "Endlösung" having a separate, more broad meaning when compared to "die Endlösung der Judenfrage"

I found this thread, which is possibly relevant:

The Terms 'Final Solution' and 'Endlösung,' Growth in Usage by Year
viewtopic.php?t=11208

Endlösung (Link)
This term occasionally appears in German, at a low rate, from the early 1920s. Its rate of use was fairly consistent from the mid 1920s to the mid 1940s. What this tells me is that the memorandist who jotted down the term Endlösung in early 1942, its first-ever appearance in NS Regime internal writing, and potentially its coining as refering to the plan to deport the Jews out of German-oriented European territory, was using a then-current turn-of-phrase in German. There is nothing inherently sinister about it. (Here is one instance from the minutes of the Reichstag, 1923. The full text is not accessible but a Reichstag member is apparently using the term positively, to mean compensation to settle a matter for a group of constituents. Other appearances seem mainly technical, dealing with chemistry and engineering.)



I am not any more than a very novice German speaker, so I'd like some input. Is it really as simple as "Final Solution" (Endlösung) being used in a totally separate way here? :?
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:00 am)

Nice work as usual, Lamprecht.

And then:
"I owe my permission to submit the Zionist plan for the final solution of the Jewish Question."
- 'Father of Zionism' Theodor Herzl, letter to the Czar, November 22, 1899.

Wisliceny debunked here:

'Pre-trial interrogation of Dieter Wisliceny'
viewtopic.php?t=4377

'Did Himmler ever admit to "Three Million"?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4981

'from Inconvenient History: 'The Adolf Eichmann Trial', another farce'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12179

much more here:
https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=wisliceny
and
search.php?keywords=wisliceny+&fid%5B0%5D=2

It's no contest.

- Hannover

No human remains of millions to be seen in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:27 am)

I am still confused a bit. I would appreciate it if a native German speaker could elaborate here.

Why did they say these executed Jews were "der Endlösung zugeführt wurden" (Brought to the final solution)

I mean, the goal was to have total geographical separation of Jews from German living spaces. That meant, for the most part, resettling Jews to the east (after Madagascar or wherever else was off the table)... But surely, it was understood that some would die.

Perhaps this "der Endlösung zugeführt wurden" is being quoted out of context; i.e was it simply using the term "Final solution" in a way that was unrelated and not in reference to the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question"?? Like I said, I don't really know German.



These seem to be the relevant pages in reference to:

On February 19, 1944, a document on executions in Piaski gave a list of Jews who were "brought to the final solution." ["der Endlösung zugeführt wurden" [YVA O.53/82, pp.50-52].


Image

Image

Image


The word itself seems the term is a mix of

Ende (“end”) +‎ Lösung (“solution”)

From: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Endl%C3%B6sung

Endlösung f (genitive Endlösung, plural Endlösungen)

- (singular only, euphemistic) Nazi term for the planned and attempted mass murder of the European Jews, the Holocaust quotations ▲
For quotations of use of this term, see Citations:Endlösung.

- (dated) the final or definitive solution to a question or problemquotations ▲
1872, Sämmtliche Werke von Fritz Reuter; billige amerikanische Ausgabe, 30. Band, 7. Theil, page 69:

Hier wird das Manuscript der Memoiren unleserlich, bis es endlich mit einem großen Tintenfleck schließt. Diese Endlösung der Geschichte konnte mich nicht befriedigen, ich nahm also die Gelegenheit wahr, mich auf einer Reihe, die mich nach B. führte, wo der alte Peter begraben ist, nachdem endlich Schicksalen des Fliegenschimmels zu erkundigen.

1930, Die Gesellschaft, volume 2, page 106:

Die territoriale Neugliederung der Länder sei notwendig und im Rahmen einer Endlösung sei auch die Beseitigung des Dualismus zwischen Preußen und dem Reich ins auge zu fassen.

For more examples of usage of this term, see Citations:Endlösung.

- (chemistry, possibly dated) the final solution: the solution reached after the last of several dissolutions of solute(s) in solvent(s) quotations ▲
1898–1899, Zeitschrift für Elektrochemie; 5. Jahrgang (1898–1899), published by Walther Nernst and Wilhelm Borchers, page 219:

Die Endlösung reagierte schwach alkalisch.

1903, Archiv für die gesammte Physiologie des Menschen und der Thiere; 98. Band, published by Eduard Friedrich Wilhelm Pflüger, page 255:

Sind dabei die Wanderungsgeschwindigkeiten der Ionen des mittleren Elektrolyten verschieden gross, so ertheilt das voraneilende schnellere Ion den Endlösungen seine Ladung, das zurückbleibende gibt der mittleren sein eigenes entgegengesetztes Potential.

1981, Wissenschaftliche Zeitschrift der Karl-Marx-Universität [Leipzig]: Mathematisch-Naturwissenschaftliche Reihe, volume 30, page 94:

Die Bestimmungsgrenze liegt bei etwa 0,04 μg S²⁻/ml Endlösung.

For more examples of usage of this term, see Citations:Endlösung.



As seen above, there are 3 definitions provided.

1. The "Final Solution" program as we know it; the "Holocaust"

2. A final or definitive solution to a problem or question.

3. A "final solution" in some sort of chemistry problem.


For #2 an example is given:

"Die territoriale Neugliederung der Länder sei notwendig und im Rahmen einer Endlösung sei auch die Beseitigung des Dualismus zwischen Preußen und dem Reich ins auge zu fassen."

Google Translate: "The territorial reorganization of the countries is necessary and in the context of a final solution the elimination of the dualism between Prussia and the Reich should also be considered."

If any German speaker could chime in, and comment on the use of this phrase in the context of the document. Is it referring to definition #1 (the "Final Solution to the Jewish question") or #2 (something more broad)
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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Pia Kahn » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:53 am)

"The full document is in VEJ 9, Dok. 285, pp.784-787. A scan of the document is below."

Let me quote the last sentence of the document:

"Auf Anordnung des Lagerführers - SS-Unterscharführer G r ö g e r - wurden sofort die nächsten Angehörigen der genannten Juden noch am gleichen Tage ausgesiedelt. Es handelt sich hierbei um 20 Juden. Von den Geflüchteten sind bis jetzt die unter Ziffer 4 u. 12 genannten Juden aufgegriffen worden. Sie werden gleichfalls nach Abschluss der weiteren Ermittlungen der Endlösung zugeführt.

This is a very literal translation - not elegant at all and following the German grammar.

"Following the command of the camp commander - SS-Unterscharführer G r ö g e r - the immediate relatives of the named Jews were immediately resettled (evacuated) on the same day. This concerned around 20 Jews. Among the The escaped Jews said jews named next to the numerals 4 and 12 have been caught. They will be brought to THE final solution after the termination of the investigations."

I think this passage proves that the term "THE final solution" is not used in the sense of resettlement in this context. The excaped jews that were caught were probably executed. However, the passage also proves that there was no policy of physically annhilating ALL the jews, since the immediate relatives of the escapted jews were resettled. They were not brought to he final solution.

The term "Lösung" very closely resembles the English word "solution". It can mean dissolution as in Chenistry, then the more precise term is "Auflösung". But it can also refer to the solution of a problem. Justs as in English. The final solution can mean literaly the final solution of a problem or the final dissolution of some chemical. But, the first meaning is the more common. However, the "solution of the Jewish question" does not have to mean the physical annihilation. A territorial solution can also be meant.
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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Ephor » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:21 am)

Dear Pia Kahn, your translation is not literal at all as it omits a crucial word and thus altering the meaning completely. The sentence "Sie werden gleichfalls nach Abschluss der weiteren Ermittlungen der Endlösung zugeführt." does not translate to "They will be brought to THE final solution after the termination of the investigations" but to "They also will be brought to THE final solution after the termination of the investigations", which implies that "aussiedeln (resettlement)" in the first sentence is indead the contextual meaning of the term "Endlösung". I'm a native German speaker.


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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:38 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:I think this passage proves that the term "THE final solution" is not used in the sense of resettlement in this context. The excaped jews that were caught were probably executed. However, the passage also proves that there was no policy of physically annhilating ALL the jews, since the immediate relatives of the escapted jews were resettled. They were not brought to he final solution.

The term "Lösung" very closely resembles the English word "solution". It can mean dissolution as in Chenistry, then the more precise term is "Auflösung". But it can also refer to the solution of a problem. Justs as in English. The final solution can mean literaly the final solution of a problem or the final dissolution of some chemical. But, the first meaning is the more common. However, the "solution of the Jewish question" does not have to mean the physical annihilation. A territorial solution can also be meant.


So what, do you think that they are saying that executing these criminals is the "Final solution" to that particular problem? Or that it is contributing to the "Final Solution to the Jewish problem" policy?

The "Final solution to the Jewish question" was basically just total geographical separation. Which is to say: no Jews in the living spaces of Germans. If that meant, something like 80% were to be resettled, 5% executed (as partisans, criminals, etc) and 15% simply left on their own, that would all contribute to the "Final solution to the jewish question" even though, evidently that 15% which moved on their own volition certainly were not subjected to any German policy.

As seen, the term clearly was used independently of the Final Solution to the Jewish question policy we all know about. And since then, we can be certain that no German speaker would ever use the term "Endlösung" to describe the final solution to any sort of problem, since they were taught that word to be synonymous with the Holocaust.
It seems the wording is just awkward, or at least the translation into English.
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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Pia Kahn » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:14 am)

Lamprecht wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:I think this passage proves that the term "THE final solution" is not used in the sense of resettlement in this context. The excaped jews that were caught were probably executed. However, the passage also proves that there was no policy of physically annhilating ALL the jews, since the immediate relatives of the escapted jews were resettled. They were not brought to he final solution.

The term "Lösung" very closely resembles the English word "solution". It can mean dissolution as in Chenistry, then the more precise term is "Auflösung". But it can also refer to the solution of a problem. Justs as in English. The final solution can mean literaly the final solution of a problem or the final dissolution of some chemical. But, the first meaning is the more common. However, the "solution of the Jewish question" does not have to mean the physical annihilation. A territorial solution can also be meant.


So what, do you think that they are saying that executing these criminals is the "Final solution" to that particular problem? Or that it is contributing to the "Final Solution to the Jewish problem" policy?

The "Final solution to the Jewish question" was basically just total geographical separation. Which is to say: no Jews in the living spaces of Germans. If that meant, something like 80% were to be resettled, 5% executed (as partisans, criminals, etc) and 15% simply left on their own, that would all contribute to the "Final solution to the jewish question" even though, evidently that 15% which moved on their own volition certainly were not subjected to any German policy.

As seen, the term clearly was used independently of the Final Solution to the Jewish question policy we all know about. And since then, we can be certain that no German speaker would ever use the term "Endlösung" to describe the final solution to any sort of problem, since they were taught that word to be synonymous with the Holocaust.
It seems the wording is just awkward, or at least the translation into English.


They are not explicitly talking about execution, so this is just my hunch.

I think that the executions were the "final solution" to the problem of fugitives from the camp.

The document does not talk about the "final solution of the Jewish question". The word "final solution" is not synonymous with the holocaust.
If said solution had been the physical extermination of all the jews then the immediate relatives of the fugitives would not have been resettled.

Ephor has proposed a different interpretation:

""They also will be brought to THE final solution after the termination of the investigations", which implies that "aussiedeln (resettlement)" in the first sentence is indead the contextual meaning of the term "Endlösung". "

He thinks that the term "also" implies that "resettlement" is synonymous with final solution. However, this would imply that the immediate relatives of the fugitives would be punished in the same manner as the fugitives themselves. That seems unreasonable. I think the term "also" refers to the "final solutions" previously mentioned in said document. But, both interpretations are possible.
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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:14 am)

This entire discussion is indicative of the complete lunacy of the 6,000,000 Jews claim.
Let's pause for a moment and think about what we're debating here.

The "Industry" wants to debate the usage of a phrase, which as shown was common & used innocuously, when in fact they cannot provide any substance for their "extermination" of Jews.

It's just another distraction used in place of real proof.

The "Holocau$t Industry" in court:
'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions upon millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, but, but, well, umm, we can't show the court the human remains. You must trust us, we're Zionists.'

- Hannover

Below is where free speech on the impossible 'holocaust' storyline is illegal, violators go to prison for Thought Crimes.
An obvious admission that the storyline doesn't stand up to scientific, logical, & rational scrutiny.
Image

Only lies require censorship.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:19 pm)

Hannover wrote:The "Industry" wants to debate the usage of a phrase, which as shown was common & used innocuously, when in fact they cannot provide any substance for their "extermination" of Jews.

Yes, it does truly expose the absolute desperation of the Holocaust™ industry, and the lengths they will go to in order to deceive English-speakers into believing that the "Final Solution to the Jewish question" was an extermination policy, rather than resettlement. This reminds me of the various mis-translations of "Ausrottung" into "extermination" and other such examples, pointed out by Alfred Rosenberg in the IMT trial: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2249

The "convergence of documentation" mentioned in the Holocaust Controversies blog post is, clearly, a fantasy. Even the Wannsee Protocols define the "Final Solution [to the Jewish question]" as a policy of resettlement, as do many other war-time documents. Clearly, the hoaxters here had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find an example of "Endlösung" being used in a document mentioning executions of jews, who were being punished as escaped prisoners (common practice, especially during war-time). This is despite the fact that, as Pia Khan pointed out, it is not even referring to the "Final Solution to the Jewish question" policy we are all familiar with. Or, as Ephor claimed, it may even be referencing to resettlement when you don't take the sentence out of context.


:lol:
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Re: Document claims executed jews "Brought to the Final Solution" // "Final solution" used in context of executions

Postby borjastick » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:03 am)

In pre war Germany the jews themselves admitted there was a jewish problem and it needed a solution. I am reading various books this morning trying to find the exact quotes but will weigh in here with other support quotes etc. All taken from Myths of the Twentieth Century by Roger Garoudy, original source shown below each.
'there is no document signed by Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich which speaks of exterminating the jews... the word 'extermination' does not appear in the letter from Goring to Heydrich concerning the final solution to the jewish question
This statement was made by Doctor Kubovy, of the Documentation Center in Tel Aviv 1960 Quote taken from Le veritable proces Eichmann - Paul Rassinier

The 'final solution' was often used in conjunction with the word 'territorial' but it would appear the word 'territorial' is dropped very often.

Heydrich wrote to Ribbentrop on June 24 1940 raising the issue of a 'territorial final solution' - Gerald Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution 1984 pp44

Until its abandonment, the 'Madagascar Plan' was sometimes referred to by the German leaders as the 'final solution' to the 'Jewish question.'
Poliakov, Le proces de Jerusalem (The Jerusalem Trial)

But the word Endlosung gets interesting here...
Goring's protest of the English translation of the German word 'Gesamtlosung' (complete solution) as 'final solution' (Endlosung, led Justice Robert Jackson to acknowledge the false translation and restore the true meaning.
IMT, TMWC vol. 9 pp.519-520

Quite clearly in much of the use of the phrase 'final solution' they were talking of a territorial solution to the jewish problem. The problem being that they, the jews, would not leave steadily on their own and needed to be re-located. The war in Russia, leading to more available territory for this final solution being possible.
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