Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

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Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby Lamprecht » 7 months 1 week ago (Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 pm)

Often times, as an excuse as to why there are no massive piles of human remains to be found at concentration camps, it is claimed that the burnt remains were simply thrown into ponds or rivers. But, would that mean they can not be discovered?

cremated-remains.jpg
The cremated remains of one person
cremated-remains.jpg (165.14 KiB) Viewed 562 times


"Ash" is a powdery residue left after a combustible substance is subjected to intense heat. There is coal ash, wood ash, flue ash, and many others. Cremated remains are mostly what is known as "Bone ash" (primarily calcium and phosphorus) and, as I will explain below, will not simply disappear if dumped into water.

In modern cremations, bones are pulverized and run through a system which removes trace metals, resulting in a few pounds of remains. I could not find any literature specifically addressing the solubility of bone ash in water, but the topic is mentioned in a few experiments.

From a study "Simple Method for Preparing Bone-Free Ash from Fishery Products Analyzed for Mineral Content" (my emphasis):
During the course of our routine mineral analyses of several thousand samples of fresh and canned fishery products, we observed that Ca and strontium (Sr) particularly had higher standard deviation among replicates than other elements such as potassium (K) and magnesium (Mg). Occasionally it was observed what appeared to be small bits of bone in the ash, particularly in the ash of canned samples. By trial and error, it was found that by adding water to the ash, the ash went into solution but not the “ashed bones”. Preliminary experiments wherein a few pieces of bone were added to the samples prior to ashing showed that the added pieces remained essentially intact and that a simple water wash dissolved all but the bone ash.
...
Conclusion
A simple method was developed for separating bits of bone from the ash of canned and fresh fish samples prior to determining the mineral content in the samples. The method is very simple, employing only water for separating the bone from the ashed samples.


Another study titled "The Calcium Salts of Bone" found that a very small percent of bone is soluble in water. From the study:
The figures given below show the untreated composite sample of bone cortex, which was the basis for all the bone preparations analyzed, to have consisted of roughly 65 per cent inorganic material and 10 per cent moisture. The remaining 25 per cent is chiefly the organic matrix of the bone, although it may include some inorganic constituents which would be lost in ashing. The very small amounts of alcohol-ether-soluble material indicate the bone cortex to be almost free from fats and lipoids; water-soluble bone matrix, as well as the inorganic salts of bone, are only very slightly soluble in water.

table-1-bone-ash.png
SOURCE: http://www.jbc.org/content/94/2/473.full.pdf
table-1-bone-ash.png (162.27 KiB) Viewed 562 times



Pure tricalcium phosphate powder is also known as "synthetic bone ash". It is described as "Practically insoluble in water" on pubchem: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compou ... creen=true


In a 2004 study published in J Forensic Sci titled "Cremation Weights in East Tennessee" it was found that cremated remains weigh on average 2350g (5.18 lbs) per female and 3380g (7.45 lbs) per male, with median age 77 and 65 respectively. The minimum recorded weight of cremated remains was 1050g (2.3 lbs) for a woman and 1865g (4.11 lbs).


According to this calculator: https://www.mainelyurns.com/urn-size-chart.html

For every pound a person is, that is 1 cubic inch of ashes. Therefore, a 130 lb (59kg) person would be cremated into 130 cubic inches (2,130 cubic cm) of ashes.



The following video shows an experiment (starting at: 3:26) on the solubility of calcium in water:



The video shows, quite plainly, that it is not soluble in water.


Simply put, a cremated body is not soluble in water. Therefore, if you dumped the cremated remains of a person into a pond, only a very small percentage of these remains would dissolve, and the vast majority (which is non-soluble) would pool at the bottom.

It has been asserted that over 1 million people were murdered by Nazis at Auschwitz in homicidal gas chambers, then cremated. If the average weight was 130 lbs (59kg) this would result in 75,231 cubic feet (2,130 cubic meters) for the burnt remains of 1 million people (assuming 1 cubic inch per pound of body weight). In order to make excuses for the utter lack of massive piles of human remains (cremated or otherwise) it has been alleged by some that these cremated remains were deposited en masse into a few "ash ponds" at Auschwitz.

cubic-metre-diagram.png
One cubic meter compared to a typical human
cubic-metre-diagram.png (47.83 KiB) Viewed 557 times

I estimate that the remains of 400-500 people could fit within 1 cubic meter. According to the article in this thread posted by Hannover: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12262
between 750-3,000 people could fit into the gas chamber at once. Multiple sources claim 6,000 people were killed in these gas chambers per day at Auschwitz, which would result in over a dozen cubic meters of cremated remains per day needing to be dumped in alleged "ash ponds"


Assuming every single body was cremated, this would result in millions of pounds of remains that are almost entirely insoluble in water. If this was indeed true, the majority of these burnt remains would still be able to be excavated. They would likely have settled towards the bottom of the pond in a manner primarily dictated by particle size. The entire basin of these alleged "ash ponds" would, quite evidently, be covered in bone ash & possibly small fragments of bones.

Judging by the photos provided in this link: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011 ... -birkenau/

that simply is not the case.
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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby borjastick » 7 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 am)

If you are talking about the 'ash pond at Auschwitz then am I not correct in saying this is but a few inches deep?

Looking at Jacob Bronowski in his Ascent of Man finale filmed at Auschwitz in which he stood in the ash pond and was barely up to his ankles. See here at about 1.50" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltjI3BXKBgY&t=36s

So perhaps this claim of the ash pond being the place where all the remains were dumped is simply a made up story or they were put elsewhere. What's certain is that the pond in which Bronowski stood could not have taken the volume you have shown above.
Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people
- Jacob Bronowski
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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby Lamprecht » 7 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:28 pm)

From another thread


I pointed out two sources which claimed between 66,000 and 70,000 people died at Auschwitz. I calculated that this would result in 1/2 a million pounds of remains. In terms of volume, this would be 140-175 cubic meters of burnt remains

In contrast, it is typically claimed over 1.1 million people were murdered at Auschwitz. For this to be true, that would mean about 8 million pounds of burnt remains was produced, with a volume 2,200 to 2,750 cubic meters. Let's just round down to 2,000 for convenience sake.

If the nazis allegedly murdered 1.1 million and cremated these remains, that 2,000 cubic meters of remains could fit entirely on an American football field, which is 5,351 square meters. The remains, if evenly distributed on this football field, would be 37 centimeters high, or 14.6 inches... which over a foot.

So, Crystal, do you seriously believe that there exists at Auschwitz the burnt remains of over a million people, with the volume equivalent of bone ash equal to an entire football field with over 1 foot high of bone ash covering it? Please note that the 66,000-70,000 people who died, according to the sources cited above, would also have been cremated and their remains should be there although that does not suggest or imply that Auschwitz was a death camp.

I am not quite sure how this millions of pounds of remains could be magically lost in a pond. It would fill up the entire pond. There would be enormous pits full of ash, as well. which could be excavated.

Here are some images to help you understand how large an American football field is:

Image Image Image



From: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11953#p91255


So it seems that the equivalent of 1 American football-field worth of remains, piled over 1 foot high, should exist at Auschwitz. The entire "ash ponds" would be filled up with this. We have been shown small mounds of dirt and it is simply suggested that millions of pounds of remains is buried there. It could necessarily be excavated
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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby Crystal » 7 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:53 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:From another thread


If the nazis allegedly murdered 1.1 million and cremated these remains, that 2,000 cubic meters of remains could fit entirely on an American football field, which is 5,351 square meters. The remains, if evenly distributed on this football field, would be 37 centimeters high, or 14.6 inches... which over a foot.

So, Crystal, do you seriously believe that there exists at Auschwitz the burnt remains of over a million people, with the volume equivalent of bone ash equal to an entire football field with over 1 foot high of bone ash covering it? Please note that the 66,000-70,000 people who died, according to the sources cited above, would also have been cremated and their remains should be there although that does not suggest or imply that Auschwitz was a death camp.

I am not quite sure how this millions of pounds of remains could be magically lost in a pond. It would fill up the entire pond. There would be enormous pits full of ash, as well. which could be excavated.

Here are some images to help you understand how large an American football field is:

Image Image Image



From: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11953#p91255


So it seems that the equivalent of 1 American football-field worth of remains, piled over 1 foot high, should exist at Auschwitz. The entire "ash ponds" would be filled up with this. We have been shown small mounds of dirt and it is simply suggested that millions of pounds of remains is buried there. It could necessarily be excavated


There were other graves besides the 4 pond graves:

Scattered throughout the camp in all three sector of Auschwitz were huge pits used as mass graves for thousands of stacked bodies... Typically, the mass graves held about 107,000 corpses

http://www.holocaust-trc.org/the-holocaust-education-program-resource-guide/auschwitz-the-camp-of-death/


So it would have been very easy for the Nazis to hide all those remains.

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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby Lamprecht » 7 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:38 pm)

Crystal wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:There were other graves besides the 4 pond graves:

Scattered throughout the camp in all three sector of Auschwitz were huge pits used as mass graves for thousands of stacked bodies... Typically, the mass graves held about 107,000 corpses

http://www.holocaust-trc.org/the-holocaust-education-program-resource-guide/auschwitz-the-camp-of-death/


So it would have been very easy for the Nazis to hide all those remains.


1 - There is no question that there were remains at Auschwitz. As pointed out, over 60,000 people died there according to revisionist sources. Simply finding some quantity of remains, or claiming that they are there, does not prove that Auschwitz was an extermination camp


2 - Your source claims that the were massive pits holding 107,000 corpses, but provides no evidence. Assuming the 107 thousand people were all cremated, that would imply 150-200 cubic meters of burnt remains exist in each alleged pit. Such a massive pit would absolutely be excavatable, it would be absurd to claim that such a pit would be undetectable. I implore you to correct me if you think my math here is wrong.

3 - The following image shows exactly what 200 cubic meters looks like. Can you provide any reason for me to believe that even one grave of this enormous size exists at Auschwitz?

200-cubic-meters-propane-gas-storage-tank.jpg
200 cubic meter propage gas storage tank. source: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/200-cubic-meters-propane-gas-storage_60538863882.html
200-cubic-meters-propane-gas-storage-tank.jpg (263.89 KiB) Viewed 450 times


4 - It would indeed have been "easy" for the nazis to "hide" 200 cubic meters of remains underground. Digging massive holes is not a very complicated task. However, it would not have been "easy" for them to make these alleged massive graves undetectable. Such a claim is totally impossible.

5 - Your own source mentions "thousands of stacked bodies" which would imply that these remains are not actually cremated: entire skeletons would necessarily be able to be excavated in this case, and at the very least detectable via ground penetrating radar. So far this has not happened, to my knowledge.

6 - Why do you believe the remains of over 1 million people is buried at Auschwitz rather than below 100,000? Clearly, this is not based on any sort of excavation or even photographs of enormous pits consistent with this theory. I have not met anyone that claims nobody died at Auschwitz, and the records show 66,000 deaths prior to 1944. This massive death toll (largely a result of typhus outbreak) would necessarily also produce huge mass graves, albeit fewer than what is required to dispose of over 1 million people. How do you justify this enormous death toll?
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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby borjastick » 7 months 1 week ago (Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:45 am)

He's missing a couple of key issues here, perhaps deliberately.

Firstly the well known water table problem in the area would make digging large pits almost impossible.

Second where are these pits? Surely we know where they are if they exist as they would be marked and part of the Auschwitz Experience to all tourists.

Third the diggings from these pits would be very large too, where did they go or is it that they just disappeared like 1m people seemingly did at Auschwitz.
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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby Rogal Dorn » 7 months 1 week ago (Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:54 pm)

Have revisionists managed to uncover any evidence in terms of human remains backing up even their 70k death toll? I dont think so. So the question isn't "where are the cremains of the remaining 1,030,000 victims?" but rather "where is any tangible amount of cremains at all?"

I think the reason is, as per the official narrative, most of the ashes were dropped into the nearby Visla and Sola rivers, rather than the ponds where probably only an insignificant amount of ash went. And rivers tend to not be stationary bodies of water, hence over 7 decades the ashes would have been dragged with the current as far as the two rivers' tributaries and into the sea beyond.

That's how the mainstream gets away with their narrative.

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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby Lamprecht » 7 months 1 week ago (Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:36 pm)

Rogal Dorn wrote:Have revisionists managed to uncover any evidence in terms of human remains backing up even their 70k death toll? I dont think so. So the question isn't "where are the cremains of the remaining 1,030,000 victims?" but rather "where is any tangible amount of cremains at all?"

That is, indeed, the question. The 70,000 number is based primarily on recorded deaths. Revisionists are prevented from excavating the graves or using a ground-penetrating radar, it's a matter of legality.

I think the reason is, as per the official narrative, most of the ashes were dropped into the nearby Visla and Sola rivers, rather than the ponds where probably only an insignificant amount of ash went. And rivers tend to not be stationary bodies of water, hence over 7 decades the ashes would have been dragged with the current as far as the two rivers' tributaries and into the sea beyond.

That's how the mainstream gets away with their narrative.
I think that there would still be massive quantities of remains if that was the case, due to the insolubility of bone ash in water. Also, most people do not understand that the cremated remains of millions of people would be, necessarily, millions of pounds of remains. When they think "ash" they are imagining wood ash, or some powdery ash like from a cigarette. It is not difficult to dispose of this at all. The truth is: cremated remains are not "ash" in any traditional sense of the word, but dried bone fragments.

The basic assumption is that the nazis killed over a million people at Auschwitz. And now, when confronted by the lack of physical remains, they must resort to grasping at straws in order to explain away the lack of physical evidence. They get away with this because people will believe anything they say at this point, they have successfully turned revisionists into heretics / heathens.
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Re: Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds

Postby borjastick » 7 months 1 week ago (Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:01 pm)

The phrase 'when in a hole, stop digging' comes to mind regarding the above comment by Rogal Forn. Perhaps the remains of the 70,000 official victims from Auschwitz don't exist for another reason such as they were never there to begin with.

Or maybe because they were sent back to their families in Germany a practice followed in concentration camps in Germany so why not Auschwitz? I haven't heard any evidence either way that this activity was used at Auschwitz.

For those who don't know the authorities used to send the cremains of dead prisoners in camps home to their families as shown here by Furtherglory and I have seen this covered on many other web sites and info places such as Wiki.
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011 ... ion-camps/
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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