Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

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Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:58 pm)

I don't know how long this has been happening, but I've come across many of these graphics which purport to 'debunk holocaust denial'. https://archive.4plebs.org/tv/thread/98883259/#98885028 (a thread for anyone interested). I wanted to make this post to poke fun at them and read the critiques of those more knowledgeable than myself, so perhaps this thread can be a topic debunking these graphics specifically if it hasn't been done already. They seem, as a cursory glance to be based more upon asking questions and moral judgements then about actual information.

image.JPG


If you look at the centre right graphic of the first image below, the one in the middle the fourth point admits that there isn't enough tangible evidence to prove the Holocaust.

The Nazi's cover-up also had one last unintended benefit. While the enormous amount of documents, testimonials and witnesses provide a grand picture proving the reality of the holocaust beyond a doubt, holocaust deniers and historical revisionists could use the lack of immediate hard evidence of the death camps to mislead laymen into believing it never happened

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This to me is not an insignificant admission. And probably why the argument quality in these images seems to come down to the reader having to accept unsourced predictions for the debunking to even be relevant such as the idea that the Nazis hid their tracks, of course that's very convenient even though in the same point apparently we still have documents...So, either the Nazis did it so well or not so well, there doesn't seem to be an answer. The points about testimonials and witness reports seems laughable. If I write a novel painting a 'grand picture' it's still just a fiction, even if gullible people for whatever reason started to believe it.

Image
This one strikes me as odd. The idea that hearing about '6 million jews' would've been normal because that was the rough total number of Jews in europe seems off simply because the Holocaust is supposed to have killed 6 million jews, leaving millions more alive, and more millions receiving reparations. I can't help but think some of these images are so bad they might've been created by revisionists as a tactic to attack even though I'm yet to see anyone make rebuttals.

Here are the other images.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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This one makes me laugh simply because somehow it's "selective' (no shit) to criticize laughable stories touted to be true. Of course exterminationist hate this because of how ridiculous we know it all is.

Image

I know that all of these arguments are probably very basic and have been refuted to death elsewhere on the forum. But I think that this thread can be an antidote to such graphics when those questioning look online, especially since these graphics on our side or theirs seem to exist within their own niche. I also think it'd be useful to debunk them here so anyone looking for answers can find them quickly without digging for hours and hours through tons of information that create an overwhelming experience. I know I've personally been overwhelmed when I go into a rabbit hole.

Maybe creating our own graphics as supplements to the Holocaust Handbooks could provide some use, less conspiratorial looking graphics that would put off those wondering about the truth. Unfortunately we have to be a lot more careful than the other guys. Anyway.

I'm just particularly interested in responding to these points, especially those about the oven capacity and the zyklon residue, how it works in different weather, apparently that Polish team cited in a few of the graphs found traces, but traces also have been lost because the Auschwitz 'homicidal gas chambers' were open and subject to the conditions??

I'm interested to, because of the non-revisionist historians which are now questioning Auschwitz or throw it off entirely. Particularly Gitta Sereny.

Her ruthless desire to stick to the facts -- that, say, Auschwitz was not a "death camp" -- has not always won her friends. She is particularly scathing about the identification of Hitler's evil with the death of the Jews and only the Jews. She deplores the use of the word "holocaust", she says.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Legal/Observer/Ser ... 90801.html


"Untruth always matters," she writes, "and not just because it is unnecessary to lie when so much terrible truth is available. Every falsification, every error, every slick rewrite job is an advantage to the neo-Nazis." She is puzzled, too, by what she perceives as a reluctance to confront the truth by those who seem to have the most interest in it: "Why on earth have all these people who made Auschwitz into a sacred cow. . . why didn't they go and look at Treblinka (which was an extermination camp)? It was possible. There were survivors alive when all this started. Nobody did. It was an almost pathological concentration on this one place. A terrible place -- but it was not an extermination camp." Then she sighs; and suddenly the fierceness leaves her. "The distinctions are important," she says more quietly. "But -- death is death.http://www.fpp.co.uk/Legal/Observer/Ser ... 90801.html


And also Fritjof Meyers report http://www.vho.org/GB/c/Meyer.html about the lower Auschwitz death toll to around the 400,000 mark, the number used in 1947 by the poles themselves. But not only that, the idea that Jews were actually gassed in farm houses outside of Auschwitz itself. Even though that simply creates more unfalsifiable claims, it's still a huge step in the right direction in my mind. And those exterminationists know this as I'm sure many know there was some controversy around Meyer's study.

Irving has made a post on his website documenting some of the controversy.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteuropa/Meyer_replies_engl.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/trial/Zimmermann190100.html

And there's also this article published in the Journal for Genocide research written by John Zimmerman which I haven't seen a thorough response to from the revisionist side.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1462352042000225976?mobileUi=0&journalCode=cjgr20

I think this would be a useful thread to respond to these graphics specifically as I haven't come across anyone resisting them with revisionist arguments. These Exterminationists are running wild and they need to be stopped.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

Postby borjastick » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:08 pm)

It's all very simple, ask these experts to come here and defend their claims. They won't because of several reasons but mainly because they are held to a higher standard here and because they know they will be put to the sword.

It's very easy for a sixteen year old 'hard' boy at school to dominate and win the argument in the school playground against twelve years olds. But sooner or later he leaves school and finds that 18 yr olds are waiting for him.

In this place they will need to be at their best, and they aren't, ever.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:19 pm)

Some of these info pics they are "debunking" are just bad arguments. If you do not use these images, then someone "refuting" them is simply attacking a strawman.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

As for this:

Image

Juergen Graf examines Hilberg's book in his "The Giant with Feet of Clay" here: https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/03-tgwfoc.pdf

It also misses the entire point, which is that we know some eyewitness testimony is complete nonsense. Even jews have admitted that most testimony is "unreliable" see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12170#p90773

As for this picture with the Zyclon-B stains:

Image

Germar Rudolf shows that the Polish team's study was not using "legitimate scientific methods" here:
A fraudulent attempt to refute Mr. Death
http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/Fraudulent.html

As well as many other places. As for:

Image

Yeah, believers love to attack Leuchter for his alleged lack of credibility (a fallacious ad hominem attack of course) but they usually ignore Germar Rudolf and his expert report, since he is an actually qualified chemist:
The Rudolf Report: Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/

Image
As for the top right image on Krege's analysis (which, to be fair, hasn't been published) how can they "Debunk the whole image" if they can not show us even one grave? Apparently you can win $100,000 by showing the graves at Treblinka.
See the NAFCASH challenge: http://nafcash.com/

Honestly, I have never used any of these photos that are "debunked" in these images in my debates. I would stick to the facts, there are many ways to approach the debate. If someone posts these images themselves, and "debunks" them, explain that you did not post these images and it is a strawman argument.



I'm just particularly interested in responding to these points, especially those about the oven capacity and the zyklon residue, how it works in different weather, apparently that Polish team cited in a few of the graphs found traces, but traces also have been lost because the Auschwitz 'homicidal gas chambers' were open and subject to the conditions??


Oven capacity is not something I usually choose to debate about. These people claim millions of jews were vaporized in ovens, so why don't they show the millions of pounds of remains that would necessarily be there?

On that cremation document: https://imgur.com/jSj3fsf

Why did Auschwitz need crematoriums able to 'burn 5,000 people a day' ?
viewtopic.php?t=10214

The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

Carlo Mattogno: The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz—A Technical and Historical Study
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/24-tcfoa.pdf


As for the ferrocyanide residue, see the link above "A fraudulent attempt to refute Mr. Death" and "The Rudolf Report"

As well as this thread:
Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

This link shows you the polish report and totally rips it to shreds in a short summary at the top:

An Official Polish Report on the Auschwitz 'Gas Chambers'
https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p207_Staff.html

Also:
Some considerations about the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Birkenau
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Green.html

And there's also this article published in the Journal for Genocide research written by John Zimmerman which I haven't seen a thorough response to from the revisionist side.

Germar Rudolf: The International Auschwitz Controversy
https://codoh.com/library/document/1746/

See also my thread on the quantity of burnt remains that would be at Auschwitz (roughly 1 US football field covered over 1 foot high in burnt remains / bone ash):
Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12278
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:16 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Some of these info pics they are "debunking" are just bad arguments. If you do not use these images, then someone "refuting" them is simply attacking a strawman.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

As for this:

Image

Juergen Graf examines Hilberg's book in his "The Giant with Feet of Clay" here: https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/03-tgwfoc.pdf

It also misses the entire point, which is that we know some eyewitness testimony is complete nonsense. Even jews have admitted that most testimony is "unreliable" see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12170#p90773

As for this picture with the Zyclon-B stains:

Image

Germar Rudolf shows that the Polish team's study was not using "legitimate scientific methods" here:
A fraudulent attempt to refute Mr. Death
http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/Fraudulent.html

As well as many other places. As for:

Image

Yeah, believers love to attack Leuchter for his alleged lack of credibility (a fallacious ad hominem attack of course) but they usually ignore Germar Rudolf and his expert report, since he is an actually qualified chemist:
The Rudolf Report: Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/

Image
As for the top right image on Krege's analysis (which, to be fair, hasn't been published) how can they "Debunk the whole image" if they can not show us even one grave? Apparently you can win $100,000 by showing the graves at Treblinka.
See the NAFCASH challenge: http://nafcash.com/

Honestly, I have never used any of these photos that are "debunked" in these images in my debates. I would stick to the facts, there are many ways to approach the debate. If someone posts these images themselves, and "debunks" them, explain that you did not post these images and it is a strawman argument.



I'm just particularly interested in responding to these points, especially those about the oven capacity and the zyklon residue, how it works in different weather, apparently that Polish team cited in a few of the graphs found traces, but traces also have been lost because the Auschwitz 'homicidal gas chambers' were open and subject to the conditions??


Oven capacity is not something I usually choose to debate about. These people claim millions of jews were vaporized in ovens, so why don't they show the millions of pounds of remains that would necessarily be there?

On that cremation document: https://imgur.com/jSj3fsf

Why did Auschwitz need crematoriums able to 'burn 5,000 people a day' ?
viewtopic.php?t=10214

The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

Carlo Mattogno: The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz—A Technical and Historical Study
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/24-tcfoa.pdf


As for the ferrocyanide residue, see the link above "A fraudulent attempt to refute Mr. Death" and "The Rudolf Report"

As well as this thread:
Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

This link shows you the polish report and totally rips it to shreds in a short summary at the top:

An Official Polish Report on the Auschwitz 'Gas Chambers'
https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p207_Staff.html

Also:
Some considerations about the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Birkenau
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Green.html

And there's also this article published in the Journal for Genocide research written by John Zimmerman which I haven't seen a thorough response to from the revisionist side.

Germar Rudolf: The International Auschwitz Controversy
https://codoh.com/library/document/1746/

See also my thread on the quantity of burnt remains that would be at Auschwitz (roughly 1 US football field covered over 1 foot high in burnt remains / bone ash):
Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12278


Thanks very much Lamprecht! This will be very helpful. My first and foremost action to take with those who I talk to about the Holocaust is to refer them to the forum as I know there's people on here definitely more adept than myself to respond to such questions. My main interest is the rise and actual state of the Third Reich not so much the war and the Holocaust, although the Holocaust is definitely something I get into rabbit holes about on the occasion.

And like I said in the original post, I find it quite telling that they admit the lack of real physical evidence can lead to the conclusion that it didn't happen. As far as I'm concerned they have the conclusion in their mind, whatever deviates from that must fit their preconceived conclusions whether it's about the Holocaust or the National Socialists prior to. In order for them to debunk something they must accept other claims they haven't proven.

Krege is interesting, you said his findings haven't been published but if you just type in his surname you get results claiming to debunk him, based on what I do not know. In the graphic they simply made non points about HIM not the actual findings which fell totally flat. I'll look at your links.

If anyone else wants to respond with more info I'd be willing to see it too.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:04 am)

Yes, they often like to attack the person. Some times, instead of refuting what someone says, a person will try to set about and prove they are a "racist" or "anti-semite" which, to them, invalidates all of their statements. Obviously, it does not, if a 'racist' says "2+2=4" is that not true?

Image

Krege's report hasn't been published, but we also have Sturdy Colls' analysis of Treblinka. Read more:

Comments on Treblinka Statements by Caroline Sturdy Colls
https://codoh.com/library/document/3952/

Watch: Treblinka Archaeology Hoax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuAAjrbbBiM

Simply search Sturdy Colls in the forum: https://www.google.com/search?q=sturdy+ ... .codoh.com

As for:
As far as I'm concerned they have the conclusion in their mind
Yes that is often the case. When someone has adopted a religion, they really can not change it. I have made a post about this: viewtopic.php?t=7134#p52463

There exist true believers, they are convinced that if you say "Hitler did not gas Jews" you are justifying genocide and racism in some way. I don't really put in much effort trying to understand their illogical thought processes, all you can do is make your case.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Exterminationist Holocaust Graphics Circling Online

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:35 pm)

From the OP:
Image

Full German text: https://archive.is/iTBBb

Google translate: https://archive.is/EmhXL

This is a circular letter which the SS Obergruppenfuhrer Oswald Pohl, mentioned by Blatt, delivered to the commanders of all 19 concentration camps on October 26, 1943.

Partial translation:
The work capacity of the detainees has become significant and all measures taken by the commanders, the heads of the food service, and the physicians have to aim for the health and efficiency of the detainees. [...] My first priority is: No more than 10% of all detainees should be disabled because of diseases. This objective must be achieved by the joint efforts of all concerned. Thus, it is necessary to ensure:

1) Good and proper diet

2) Good and proper clothing

3) Use of all natural health agents

4) Avoidance of all unnecessary efforts not immediately connected with the task in question.


I seriously fail to understand how this at all shows a deliberate policy of starvation? I guess these hoaxters are just hoping they can trick people into believing lies by mislabeling documents in languages the reader doesn't understand...

See also:

Did Himmler order the Jews be better treated?
viewtopic.php?t=1649

A 1936 italian report about KL Dachau.
viewtopic.php?t=8254
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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