5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

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Lamprecht
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5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 week ago (Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:18 pm)

I searched and this article was only mentioned in passing in another post (linked at the bottom). This article is a couple years old, but I think it deserves its own thread.

This was done in response to when Trump, on the Holocaust Memorial Day, mentioned the "millions of victims" of the NSDAP, but did not explictly mention Jews. The Zionists got mad about this, and came out admitting that the 5 million gentiles (out of the 11 million total - 6 million jews) is a made up number.

The so-called "Holocaust experts" openly admitted to inventing five million deaths in order to drum-up sympathy for the Jews. So why are we supposed to believe that the other 6 million is not the same thing?

If they are willing to lie about millions of deaths, why should we trust them? One guy, Simon Wiesenthal, basically made it up and started telling people about it, and therefore it found itself in every history book and documentary on the topic. Just because a Jew said it. And the Jew who said it knew it was a lie but justified lying about millions of imaginary dead people because it benefited the Jews. They also claim only 1/2 a million gentiles died in the so-called "Holocaust" which means the 5 million number is inflated by 1,000% (a factor of 10)!


‘Remember the 11 million’? Why an inflated victims tally irks Holocaust historians

WASHINGTON (JTA) — “Five million non-Jews died in the Holocaust.”

It’s a statement that shows up regularly in declarations about the Nazi era. It was implied in a Facebook post by the Israel Defense Forces’ spokesperson’s unit last week marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day. And it was asserted in an article shared by the Trump White House in defense of its controversial Holocaust statement the same day omitting references to the 6 million Jewish victims.

It is, however, a number without any scholarly basis.

Indeed, say those close to the late Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, its progenitor, it is a number that was intended to increase sympathy for Jewish suffering but which now is more often used to obscure it.


The White House statement sent waves of dismay through the Jewish community, including among groups that have been supportive of President Donald Trump.

By mentioning the “victims, survivors, [and] heroes of the Holocaust” without mentioning the Jews, said a host of Jewish organizations, the Jan. 27 statement risked playing into the hands of the European right, which includes factions that seek to diminish the centrality of the Jewish genocide to the carnage of World War II.


In defending the omission of Jews from the statement, a White House spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, sent CNN a link to a 2015 Huffington Post-UK piece titled “The Holocaust’s Forgotten Victims: The 5 Million Non-Jewish People Killed By The Nazis.”

Sean Spicer, the White House spokesman, on Monday appeared to cite the same source, saying that the Nazis’ victims included Roma, gays, the disabled and priests. He called complaints about the statement “pathetic,” although some of those objections came from two groups that otherwise have been supportive of Trump, the Republican Jewish Coalition and the Zionist Organization of America.

In the wake of the controversy, the world’s two leading Holocaust museums, in Washington and in Jerusalem, issued statements emphasizing the centrality of the annihilation of the Jews to the understanding of the Holocaust; neither mentioned Trump.

The “5 million” has driven Holocaust historians to distraction ever since Wiesenthal started to peddle it in the 1970s. Wiesenthal told the Washington Post in 1979, “I have sought with Jewish leaders not to talk about 6 million Jewish dead, but rather about 11 million civilians dead, including 6 million Jews.”


Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli Holocaust scholar who chairs the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, said he warned his friend Wiesenthal, who died in 2005, about spreading the false notion that the Holocaust claimed 11 million victims – 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews.

“I said to him, ‘Simon, you are telling a lie,’” Bauer recalled in an interview Tuesday. “He said, ‘Sometimes you need to do that to get the results for things you think are essential.’”


Bauer and other historians who knew Wiesenthal said the Nazi hunter told them that he chose the 5 million number carefully: He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish suffering, but not larger than the actual number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 6 million.

It caught on: President Jimmy Carter, issuing the executive order that would establish the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, referred to the “11 million victims of the Holocaust.”

Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of Holocaust studies at Emory University in Atlanta, wrote in 2011 how the number continues to dog her efforts to teach about the Holocaust.

“I have been to many Yom Hashoah observances — including those sponsored by synagogues and Jewish communities — where eleven candles were lit,” she wrote in an article in the Jewish Review of Books in which she lacerated Wiesenthal’s ethical standards. “When I tell the organizers that they are engaged in historical revisionism, their reactions range from skepticism to outrage. Strangers have taken me to task in angry letters for focusing ‘only’ on Jewish deaths and ignoring the five million others. When I explain that this number is simply inaccurate, in fact made up, they become even more convinced of my ethnocentrism and inability to feel the pain of anyone but my own people.”

The problem, according to Bauer, who has debunked the number repeatedly in his writings over the decades, is not that non-Jews were not victims; they were. It is that Wiesenthal’s arbitrarily chosen tally of non-Jewish victims diminishes the centrality to the Nazi ideology of systematically wiping any trace of the Jewish people from the planet.

In fact, he said, the term “genocide” could accurately be applied to the 2 million to 3 million Poles murdered and millions more enslaved by the Nazis. But the mass murder of the Poles, Roma and others should not come under the rubric “Holocaust,” a term that Holocaust historians generally dislike because of its religious connotations but nonetheless have accepted as describing only the annihilation that the Nazis hoped to visit on the Jews.

“All Jews of the world had to be annihilated,” Bauer said. “That was the intent. There was never an idea in Nazi minds to murder all the Russians.”

The number 5 million also adheres to no known understanding of the number of non-Jews killed by the Nazis: While as many as 35 million people were killed overall because of Nazi aggression, the number of non-Jews who died in the concentration camps is no more than half a million, Bauer said.

Using the 11 million figure often leads to muddled history. The Huffington Post-UK article Hicks linked to, for instance, lists as a separate class “twins,” as if Josef Mengele, the murderous doctor at Auschwitz, sought out twins of any heritage for his experiments. In fact, they were chosen only from among the Jews and Roma arriving at the camp.

Mark Weitzman, the director of government affairs for the Simon Wiesenthal Center, said that Wiesenthal, in advancing the number, “never intended to minimize the Jewish specificity of the Shoah,” the Hebrew word for Holocaust.

“He was trying to draw attention to the fact that there were other victims of Nazi genocide,” Weitzman said.

Nonetheless, Weitzman acknowledged that Wiesenthal’s formulation, decades later, was inadvertently contributing to the efforts among right-wing nationalists in Europe to minimize Jewish suffering in the Holocaust.

“This is used as a political tool to minimize the Jewish aspect, to write it out of history, or to maximize other victims’ suffering to make them the prime victims and claim a place of honor in the role of victims,” he said. “Unfortunately to some people, it becomes a competitive game, especially for political purposes.”

The White House has endeavored to show that the statement has Jewish approval. Spicer said a Jewish staffer descended from Holocaust survivors helped draft it, and Politico, citing a source, reported late Monday that it was Boris Epshteyn, a Russian-born Jew who is one of Trump’s advisers.

The IDF spokesperson’s Facebook post, which also neglected to mention the Jewish victims, said that “11 million men, women, and children perished in the Holocaust. Share their stories and speak their names to keep their memory alive.” The post was later changed to include the 6 million Jewish victims, but the reference to 11 million remains.

Rabbi Marvin Hier, who founded the Wiesenthal Center and delivered the benediction at Trump’s inauguration, told CNN on Tuesday that Trump’s statement was a “mistake,” but one he did not believe was intended to diminish Jewish suffering.

“I do not accuse President Trump of wanting to dishonor the memory of the victims of the Holocaust who were Jewish, but it was a mistake,” he said.

Lipstadt, writing this week in The Atlantic, is not so sure, given the affinity that some in the Trump administration – particularly Trump’s chief strategist, Stephen Bannon, have to the “alt-right,” a movement that has embraced the resurgent nationalism now prevalent in parts of Europe.

“It may have all started as a mistake by a new administration that is loath to admit it’s wrong,” she wrote. “Conversely, it may be a conscious attempt by people with anti-Semitic sympathies to rewrite history. Either way it is deeply disturbing.”

Bauer agreed.

“The Trump statement makes a salad of the Holocaust,” he said. “This is soft denial.”
https://archive.is/gBfZ2 or https://www.jta.org/2017/01/31/united-s ... historians



Some good reading:

Nazis may have killed up to 20m, claims 'shocking' new Holocaust study
viewtopic.php?t=11117

Origin of the 5 million non-Jews killed in holocaust lie
viewtopic.php?t=6424

Holocaust Victims: A Statistical Analysis
viewtopic.php?t=11031

a math problem- the 5 million non Jews
viewtopic.php?t=8458
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Lamprecht » 3 weeks 3 days ago (Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:19 pm)

This is admitted in the following book:

Image

Tom Segev (2012) "Simon Wiesenthal: The Life and Legends"
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Stephen Cohen » 3 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:35 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:The so-called "Holocaust experts" openly admitted to inventing five million deaths in order to drum-up sympathy for the Jews. So why are we supposed to believe that the other 6 million is not the same thing?


Yet we still see things like this:

Holocaust deaths

The word holocaust generally refers to the deaths of Jews, but other victims of Nazi Germany are often also included. (The word holocaust is also often used to describe the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-1917 by the Ottoman Turkish regime).

Although the exact figure will never be known, here are estimates:

The figure of 11 million people dead is often given but it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated. It is far too low. One also encounters the range 11-17 million.

https://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_peop ... _Holocaust


If "it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated," then how do they know "It is far too low"?

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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby borjastick » 3 weeks 1 day ago (Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:02 am)

Stephen Cohen wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:The so-called "Holocaust experts" openly admitted to inventing five million deaths in order to drum-up sympathy for the Jews. So why are we supposed to believe that the other 6 million is not the same thing?


Yet we still see things like this:

Holocaust deaths

The word holocaust generally refers to the deaths of Jews, but other victims of Nazi Germany are often also included. (The word holocaust is also often used to describe the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-1917 by the Ottoman Turkish regime).

Although the exact figure will never be known, here are estimates:

The figure of 11 million people dead is often given but it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated. It is far too low. One also encounters the range 11-17 million.

https://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_peop ... _Holocaust


If "it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated," then how do they know "It is far too low"?


First thing to ascertain is who owns or controls the web site answers.com. The short answer is they cannot possible know that the real holocaust death toll is 11m+++++ because it isn't and there is no evidence to claim such humbug. The Wiesenthal figure as it should be called is a pure invention to drag, by lies, the world into the jewish lies of their holocaust, which also didn't happen.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Lamprecht » 3 weeks 19 hours ago (Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:15 am)

Stephen Cohen wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:The so-called "Holocaust experts" openly admitted to inventing five million deaths in order to drum-up sympathy for the Jews. So why are we supposed to believe that the other 6 million is not the same thing?


Yet we still see things like this:

Holocaust deaths

The word holocaust generally refers to the deaths of Jews, but other victims of Nazi Germany are often also included. (The word holocaust is also often used to describe the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-1917 by the Ottoman Turkish regime).

Although the exact figure will never be known, here are estimates:

The figure of 11 million people dead is often given but it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated. It is far too low. One also encounters the range 11-17 million.

https://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_peop ... _Holocaust


If "it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated," then how do they know "It is far too low"?


They do this by blaming World War II on Germany, and saying that anyone who died in this war was "killed by Hitler" or whatever. At least I think.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Lamprecht » 2 weeks 6 days ago (Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:17 pm)

Related thread:

Holocaust memorial plaque in Canada didn't mention Jews, was replaced for $55,000
viewtopic.php?t=12250

This article in the OP was made as a response to President Trump when he forgot to mention Jews explicitly when talking about the "Holocaust". He said "people" that were exterminated. The thread linked to is about a memorial plaque in Canada for the "Holocaust" but it had to be replaced for tens of thousands of dollars because it also did not explicitly mention Jews.

Probably there are many more examples of this phenomenon.

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"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Stephen Cohen » 2 weeks 6 days ago (Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:18 pm)

Allow me to summarize the OP:

The figure of 5 million deaths of non-jews during the so-called "holocaust" is a provable fabrication.

The figure of 11 million total deaths of jews and non-jews during the so-called "holocaust" is a provable fabrication.

More about said fabrications here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11894&p=89056&hilit=the+six+million+jewish+death+toll+figure#p89056

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Re: 5 million gentiles / 11 million total victims - "a number without any scholarly basis" invented by Simon Wiesenthal

Postby Stephen Cohen » 2 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 pm)

the number of non-Jews who died in the concentration camps is no more than half a million, Bauer said.

https://www.jta.org/2017/01/31/united-s ... historians


Yet everywhere we look we the big-lie is being perpetuated, like in the Encyclopedia Britannica for instance:

Holocaust, Hebrew Shoʾah (“Catastrophe”), Yiddish and Hebrew Ḥurban (“Destruction”), the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Holocaust


And here they allege that over 7 million non-jews died in the so-called "holocaust":

Millions of Jews, gipsies, Russians and prisoners of war died in Hitler's death camps as part of his Final Solution plans.

Below is a list of the death toll.

Between five and six million Jews
More than three million Soviet prisoners of war
More than two million Soviet civilians
More than one million Polish civilians
More than one million Yugoslav civilians
About 70,000 men, women and children with mental and physical handicaps
More than 200,000 gipsies
Unknown numbers of political prisoners, resistance fighters, homosexuals and deportees

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/148197 ... -toll.html\


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