Death Marches - How to respond; Did they have any choice?

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Lamprecht
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Death Marches - How to respond; Did they have any choice?

Postby Lamprecht » 11 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:04 pm)

Holocaust death marches, according to the standard Holocaust storyline, refer to in 1944 and 1945 occurring forced marches of camp prisoners from camps near the front to camps further away from the front, and causing many deaths. This is not a subject talked about very often, but comes up somewhat regularly in debates.

Some links:

Death marches? U.S. requested that Germany evacuate Auschwitz Jews back to the Reich
viewtopic.php?t=3279 or https://codoh.com/library/document/898/

The “Death Marches” that Saved Lives
https://codoh.com/library/document/1817/

I see some telegrams in the above stating that the allies saw no evidence of nazis exterminating Jews, but is there any actual proof that the Allies actually requested the Germans to evacuate the Jews?

Also, how exactly do you usually respond to someone when they bring up the so-called "death marches"? Did they have any choice, really?

Germar Rudolf in Lectures on the Holocaust seems to suggest it is a result of the allied bombing campaigns. Was life for regular Germans any better, at these final months of the war?
R: Neither the soldiers in the field nor the inhabitants of the cities could even get the bare necessities to sustain their lives: food, clothing, medicines, even drinking water became scarce. In addition to that, millions of east Germans fled towards the west at the beginning of 1945, clogging many traffic routes, and many other Germans fled the large cities. During those months, more than two million Germans died, particularly in east Germany (East and West Prussia, Silesia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg) through the excesses of the Red Army.

L: Under these circumstances, how did the inmates of the various camps and prisons fare?

R: Certainly they were still worse off than all others. The effect of this Allied policy of total warfare can be seen from the statement by Josef Kramer, who commanded the Bergen-Belsen camp during the final months of the war. While interrogated by the British, he stated (Connolly 1953, pp. 109ff.; cf. Weber1995):

“The camp was not really inefficient before you [British and American forces] crossed the Rhine. There was running water, regular meals of a kind [...]. But then they suddenly began to send me trainloads of new prisoners from all over Germany. It was impossible to cope with them.
[...]
Then as a last straw the Allies bombed the electric plant that pumped our water. Loads of food were unable to reach the camp because of the Allied fighters. Then things really got out of hand. [...]I did not even have sufficient staff to bury the dead, let alone segregate the sick. [...] I tried to get medicines and food for the prisoners and I failed. I was swamped."

...
R: At that time Germany was like an enormous heap of corpses. Humans died by the thou-sands like fliesevery day and everywhere,and the camp inmates held the worstcards during this human catastrophe–especially if they had been deported from east to west. Like millions of civilian Germans, the inmates also went on a “forced journey,” as former German federal president Richard von Weizsäcker called it. Today these deportations are also called death marches, and that they certainly were, because at that time death marched on all German roads.
At the beginning of 1945 the remaining camps were not able to supply the prisoners with the basic necessities: food, clothing, sleeping places. There was hardly any medicine available, and when in this chaos typhus and dysentery epidemics broke out, thousands died within a few weeks. There also was no fuel to cremate that many corpses.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=15
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Death Marches - How to respond; Did they have any choice?

Postby Hannover » 11 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:37 pm)

In addition, the fact is that inmates at Auschwitz, upon the advancement of Soviet troops, were given the choice to stay and await the the Soviets or leave with the SS. Thousands of Jews chose to stay, but most by far chose to leave with the German 'butchers'.

Clearly if the Germans had done what was alleged at Auschwitz they would not have left thousands of Jews behind to talk. Also note that the 'holocaust' narrative says that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on'. Yet thousands of alive Jews were allowed to stay behind at "death camp Auschwitz". Massive contradictions everywhere and there are many, many more examples.

Some of Wiesel's exact words in "Night" are (p. 78):
"The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. 'Well, what shall we do, father?' He was silent. 'Let's be evacuated with the others,' I told him."

Wiesel's words in this regard are corroborated by other "survivor" accounts including that of Primo Levi. In Levi's book "Survival in Auschwitz," we have his words for January 17th, 1945:
"It was not a question of reasoning: I would probably also have followed the instinct of the flock if I had not felt so weak: fear is supremely contagious, and its immediate reaction is to make one try to run away."
Indeed, Levi wanted to leave with the retreating Germans for fear of the approaching Soviets, but was too ill.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Death Marches - How to respond; Did they have any choice?

Postby Lamprecht » 11 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:04 pm)

Yes, some Jews did in fact stay. I have countered with this, and they said it was only for sick Jews (in the case of Wiesel, his dad was the one that was sick). Most people who defend the "Death March" narrative simply cite atrocity propaganda, like absurd claims that if a Jew fell down out of exhaustion for any reason, they were immediately shot, etc.

To add to Hannover's list, Anne Frank's father also stayed. According to Furtherglory (an excerpt):

It seems that the story of the infamous “death march” out of Auschwitz is quite controversial because it contradicts the official story that the Nazis had a plan for the genocide of the Jews. If the plan was to kill all the Jews, why were 60,000 Jews marched out of the camp, instead of killing them? Holocaust deniers use the death march as evidence that there was no plan to kill all the Jews. Holocaust believers say that the purpose of the march was to kill the prisoners.

The “death march” out of Auschwitz was nothing like the Bataan Death March. I heard one survivor at the Simon Wiesenthal Museum of Tolerance say that she was on the march and there was a “sag wagon” to pick up stragglers and allow them to ride for awhile. She said that a German soldier on the march allowed her to escape; he gave her the home address of his wife and told her to go there and his wife would employ her as a servant.
I heard another survivor at the Museum of Tolerance say that German SS men who couldn’t keep up with the march were shot because they would have had a fate worse than death if they had been left behind and were captured by the Soviet soldiers.

There is also some controversy about whether or not the prisoners went on the march because they were afraid they would be killed if they didn’t. Did they really have a choice between going or staying behind? In a biography of Anne Frank, author Melissa Mueller wrote that Otto Frank had begged Peter van Pels, the boy who had hidden in Amsterdam with the Franks, not to go on the march, but Peter was determined to go.

Otto Frank was unable to stop Peter from joining the march.
Peter was persuaded to go by a man named Max Stoppelman who had been in the main Auschwitz camp since May 1944. Melissa Mueller wrote that Max “was thoroughly familiar with the rules of survival” and that Max “took Peter under his wing.” So a prisoner who knew the “rules of survival” advised Peter to join the march.

There were several different groups that marched out. Peter and Max were in the group that marched 65 miles to Wodzislaw. Otto Frank stayed behind; he was a patient in a hospital in the main camp.

Peter survived the march and the subsequent train ride to Mauthausen in Austria. Otto Frank also survived. This seems to contradict the official story of genocide. But in a letter to his mother, Otto Frank was able to explain away this contradiction.

Quote from a letter that Otto Frank wrote to his mother after the war:
“On the 26th (of January 1945), the SS took us outside to murder us, but they were ordered away before they could do so — we were saved by a miracle.”

There was no mention of who “ordered the SS away” so we don’t know who stopped the SS from murdering the prisoners who had stayed behind. I always thought that all the SS men left on Jan. 18th, leading the way on the death marches, but according to Otto Frank, they were still there on Jan. 26th and were on the verge of murdering those who had stayed behind.
Read it all here: https://archive.is/8l8g9


Some ridiculous testimony, from an article linked here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7033&p=91321&hilit=march#p91321
The death march
After nearly eight months in Auschwitz, on January 18 1945, Leslie was sent on a death march to Germany – trekking 500 miles through the forest.
He said: “They didn’t give us any food, nothing at all. We were starving and many people - Auschwitz prisoners - were eating dead bodies. I couldn’t do that.
“I was eating the grass and drinking the snow. That kept me going, praise God I never had any problems. Other people tried it and they died of diarrhoea.
“It was -20, 25 (degrees), with no gloves and no warm clothes - I was wearing only a pair of pyjamas and a blanket in my hand and a pair of clogs.
“Every few minutes somebody got shot, if you couldn’t walk you got shot. For 5,000 people, if you’re lucky, there were 200 left.”
:roll: :roll:
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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