Pon: "Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device" document

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Lamprecht
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Re: Pon's Auschwitz Aerial photographs

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 5 days ago (Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:07 pm)

Pon wrote:This document is a inventory for crematorium II, https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430331-inventory/
Near the top right, we see that there are two inventory items which have been written in by hand. They are a little difficult to make out, especially in this reproduction, but they read "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" and "Holzblenden." The numeral 4 is written in each category. In this closeup, the text has been rotated ninety degrees:

Inventory: insertion devices, wooden covers.

"Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" is a large compound word. Words like this are quite common in the German language. Its meaning is put together from the words which form it:

der Draht - wire
das Netz - grid, net
einschieben - insert
die Vorrichtung - device, mechanism

This is best translated as "wire-mesh insertion device" or "wire-mesh introduction device."

"Holzblenden" means "wooden covers."

The only discrepancy is that they were listed for the undressing room and not the morgue (or gas chamber), (then again other items were switched between the two as well), there may be any reason for that, but just the fact that there is a inventory item which can be translated as wire-mesh introduction device should raise an eyebrow, especially if they are meant for the cellar, oh, and that there are four of them.


Wow Pon, what a find! I guess the Nazis did use these silly/ridiculous Zyklon-B induction devices after all, instead of something that would have been more efficient...
Oh, wait, nevermind. You already tried this one. It has been addressed, which you have ignored:

viewtopic.php?p=94044#p94044

There is simply nothing sinister at all about this. When someone goes through the many thousands and thousands of documents at Auschwitz, even if you accept that the "Holocaust" is a hoax and that no jew was gassed, eventually you will find something, on its own, that could be possibly construed as supporting your silly storyline. I could accuse you of some violent crime and then go through all of your receipts from the store, look through your residence and internet history and find "traces" to prove it, ignoring all of the other contradictions and impossibilities. A dirty shovel in your garage, a used roll of duct tape, a 2 year old receipt for a rope, a netflix account that has watched some murder-mystery documentary series. And of course, some neighbor that hates you for some reason, but is willing to testify that you used them all in some murder spree that he witnessed himself. Really conclusive, right? :roll:

These sorts of documents must be seen in context. Perhaps it would help if we understood at how German bomb shelters of the time were designed.

Image
Image

The link I posted above was quoting Crowell, but Mattogno gives a different interpretation that disagrees with Crowell:
Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung does not signify "dispositifs d’introduction en treillis de fil de fer" ["introduction devices made of wire netting"] (p. 79), but rather, insertion devices (the verb einschieben, means in fact, "insert, to slide into"; for example, one "inserts" a drawer in a closet).

The device for the introduction of Zyklon B in the alleged homicidal gas chambers would be called Einwurfvorrichtung (Pressac himself speaks in fact of déversement, "pouring out," of the Zyklon B in the alleged homicidal gas chambers [p. 89]). The Holzblenden, obturateurs de bois, "wooden obstructors" (p. 79), cannot be what Pressac maintains, i.e. wooden covers of the alleged introduction devices of the Zyklon B: These devices would be called in fact Holzdeckel, precisely covers, not obstructors.

Pressac states that the above-mentioned devices were found in "morgue 1" (p. 79), that is, in Leichenkeller 1, the alleged homicidal gas chamber. In reality, in the inventory of Crematory II, [84] these devices are attributed to Leichenkeller 2, the alleged changing room (for the supposed homicidal gas chamber): Did the SS want to gas the victims in the "changing room"? But that’s not all! These devices do not figure at all in the inventory of Crematory III: [85]Then how did the SS think they could introduce the Zyklon B into the gas chamber? - by affably asking the victims to carry in the cans of Zyklon B and open them after the gas-proof door closed behind them?

Therefore, these devices could have been anything but what Jean-Claude Pressac claims.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html

Crowell himself responds to Mattogno here:
Comments On Mattogno's Critique Of The Bomb Shelter Thesis
https://codoh.com/library/document/882/

van Pelt did not even use this document in the Irving-Lipstadt trial, probably because he didn't want to get called out on this absurd mistranslation which would weaken his case. And this is despite the fact that van Pelt did actually insist that wire mesh introduction devices were used to murder hundreds of thousands of jews at Auschwitz. He was certainly aware of the document, but ignored it. Quite telling.

"Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" = "wire net sliding device"

It may be even more simple than what Crowell suggests. Airducts in the a morgue need openings to blow in and suck out air (ducts alone will not do it). These openings are covered with a "wire net" similar to air heating systems in the USA, largely to keep vermin out. These wire net frames may have been removable for cleaning purposes. The openings can be regulated with a "Blende" (louvered cover), same as normal louvered heating air outlets in the USA.

Image
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Pon's Auschwitz Aerial photographs

Postby Pon » 2 months 1 day ago (Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 am)

Lamprecht wrote:
Pon wrote:This document is a inventory for crematorium II, https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430331-inventory/
Near the top right, we see that there are two inventory items which have been written in by hand. They are a little difficult to make out, especially in this reproduction, but they read "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" and "Holzblenden." The numeral 4 is written in each category. In this closeup, the text has been rotated ninety degrees:

Inventory: insertion devices, wooden covers.

"Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" is a large compound word. Words like this are quite common in the German language. Its meaning is put together from the words which form it:

der Draht - wire
das Netz - grid, net
einschieben - insert
die Vorrichtung - device, mechanism

This is best translated as "wire-mesh insertion device" or "wire-mesh introduction device."

"Holzblenden" means "wooden covers."

The only discrepancy is that they were listed for the undressing room and not the morgue (or gas chamber), (then again other items were switched between the two as well), there may be any reason for that, but just the fact that there is a inventory item which can be translated as wire-mesh introduction device should raise an eyebrow, especially if they are meant for the cellar, oh, and that there are four of them.


Wow Pon, what a find! I guess the Nazis did use these silly/ridiculous Zyklon-B induction devices after all, instead of something that would have been more efficient...
Oh, wait, nevermind. You already tried this one. It has been addressed, which you have ignored:

viewtopic.php?p=94044#p94044

There is simply nothing sinister at all about this. When someone goes through the many thousands and thousands of documents at Auschwitz, even if you accept that the "Holocaust" is a hoax and that no jew was gassed, eventually you will find something, on its own, that could be possibly construed as supporting your silly storyline. I could accuse you of some violent crime and then go through all of your receipts from the store, look through your residence and internet history and find "traces" to prove it, ignoring all of the other contradictions and impossibilities. A dirty shovel in your garage, a used roll of duct tape, a 2 year old receipt for a rope, a netflix account that has watched some murder-mystery documentary series. And of course, some neighbor that hates you for some reason, but is willing to testify that you used them all in some murder spree that he witnessed himself. Really conclusive, right? :roll:

These sorts of documents must be seen in context. Perhaps it would help if we understood at how German bomb shelters of the time were designed.

Image
Image

The link I posted above was quoting Crowell, but Mattogno gives a different interpretation that disagrees with Crowell:
Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung does not signify "dispositifs d’introduction en treillis de fil de fer" ["introduction devices made of wire netting"] (p. 79), but rather, insertion devices (the verb einschieben, means in fact, "insert, to slide into"; for example, one "inserts" a drawer in a closet).

The device for the introduction of Zyklon B in the alleged homicidal gas chambers would be called Einwurfvorrichtung (Pressac himself speaks in fact of déversement, "pouring out," of the Zyklon B in the alleged homicidal gas chambers [p. 89]). The Holzblenden, obturateurs de bois, "wooden obstructors" (p. 79), cannot be what Pressac maintains, i.e. wooden covers of the alleged introduction devices of the Zyklon B: These devices would be called in fact Holzdeckel, precisely covers, not obstructors.

Pressac states that the above-mentioned devices were found in "morgue 1" (p. 79), that is, in Leichenkeller 1, the alleged homicidal gas chamber. In reality, in the inventory of Crematory II, [84] these devices are attributed to Leichenkeller 2, the alleged changing room (for the supposed homicidal gas chamber): Did the SS want to gas the victims in the "changing room"? But that’s not all! These devices do not figure at all in the inventory of Crematory III: [85]Then how did the SS think they could introduce the Zyklon B into the gas chamber? - by affably asking the victims to carry in the cans of Zyklon B and open them after the gas-proof door closed behind them?

Therefore, these devices could have been anything but what Jean-Claude Pressac claims.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html

Crowell himself responds to Mattogno here:
Comments On Mattogno's Critique Of The Bomb Shelter Thesis
https://codoh.com/library/document/882/

van Pelt did not even use this document in the Irving-Lipstadt trial, probably because he didn't want to get called out on this absurd mistranslation which would weaken his case. And this is despite the fact that van Pelt did actually insist that wire mesh introduction devices were used to murder hundreds of thousands of jews at Auschwitz. He was certainly aware of the document, but ignored it. Quite telling.

"Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" = "wire net sliding device"

It may be even more simple than what Crowell suggests. Airducts in the a morgue need openings to blow in and suck out air (ducts alone will not do it). These openings are covered with a "wire net" similar to air heating systems in the USA, largely to keep vermin out. These wire net frames may have been removable for cleaning purposes. The openings can be regulated with a "Blende" (louvered cover), same as normal louvered heating air outlets in the USA.

Image
In the prussian blue thread the citation happened to include the introduction device inventory, but I didn't argue about it there so I missed that you had responded to it while making the post here.

Either way; Among the list of synonyms for einschiben is einfüllen and einstreuen which are translated as "pour in" and "sprinkling" respectively, I'm not a native german speaker but if it is a synonym then it probably could be used as such.

Vorrichtung is translated as "contraption" when I translated it in Google rather than device, maybe signalling something more complex than a simple device.

Indeed it could have some fair and innocent use, but would they even list such a mundane item in the inventory either way? Do they also list pipes? Indeed you could say that it was hand-written in later because it was a mundane item but why did someone feel the need to when it wasn't listed, as you say, in Crematoria III? It may be hand-written in because there was uncertainty as to if it should be written in concerning the secrecy of the gas chambers as well, which would also then be the reason it wasn't listed in Crematoria III. That it has a "double meaning" could have been used as a euphamism in order to make it seem legit as well.

I do see the reasoning behind your argument though, and I think we need to know more in order to say conclusively what it was for. Then it isn't seen as conclusive evidence either (probably because of that uncertainty), also it would be nice if a linguistic historian would give his impression on the word.

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Pon: "Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device" document

Postby Webmaster » 2 months 1 day ago (Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:08 pm)

Due to the posts in the following thread going all over the place, I have moved some posts about a specific document here

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Re: Pon: "Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device" document

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 1 day ago (Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:46 pm)

Pon:
Indeed it could have some fair and innocent use, but would they even list such a mundane item in the inventory either way?

It wasn't in the inventory for the alleged "Homicidal gas chamber".
And why list some mundane item? That is what the inventory is for. You're grasping at straws here.

Indeed you could say that it was hand-written in later because it was a mundane item but why did someone feel the need to when it wasn't listed, as you say, in Crematoria III?

I am not sure what you're saying here. I don't think it was listed for the wrong room, you do.

It may be hand-written in because there was uncertainty as to if it should be written in concerning the secrecy of the gas chambers as well, which would also then be the reason it wasn't listed in Crematoria III.

It may have been written in by a ghost too. We can speculate all day. Unfortunately, it seems you're grasping at straws here because there is essentially 0 documentation supporting your homicidal gas chamber theory.

it would be nice if a linguistic historian would give his impression on the word.

For the record, Mattogno has carried out advanced linguistic studies in Latin, Greek and Hebrew and a specialist in textual analysis. Juergen Graf is a certified philologist, works as a translator, and has professionally taught German. Germar Rudolf of course is a native German speaker.

You insist on your own translation that fits your narrative, ignoring the others, and you insist on them getting the wrong room, and you insist on many other things. And yet, van Pelt did not use this document because it would have weakened his argument to get called out on it... I think it is at least entertaining to watch you do this :lol:
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Pon: "Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device" document

Postby Marley775 » 2 months 23 hours ago (Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:46 pm)

"Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device"

Like a wire net stretcher used to slide corpse in a muffle.

https://imgur.com/HtcPqzi

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Re: Pon: "Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device" document

Postby Dresden » 2 months 17 hours ago (Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:15 am)

Marley775 wrote:"Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" or "wire net sliding device"

Like a wire net stretcher used to slide corpse in a muffle.

https://imgur.com/HtcPqzi


That's more like a cast iron grate than a wire net.
Image
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