Krema 2 Measurements

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Louis S
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Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Louis S » 3 months 1 day ago (Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:50 pm)

Recently, I have stumbled upon Dean Irebodd’s Auschwitz documentary Auschwitz: The Surprising Hidden Truth. In the presentation, there was a photo stating that the length of Krema 2’s ’gas chamber’ was around 30 yards long, as a sketch of it was show atop a football field.

Is there any information as to exactly how large the facilities(’undressing room’, ’gas chamber’, and above ground crematorium) were?

LS

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 1 day ago (Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:14 pm)

Looks to be either 29.37 meter or 30.00 which equals 32 - 32.8 yards. So 30 yards is about correct for the alleged homicidal gas chamber.

From page 107 of "The Chemistry of Auschwitz" PDF: https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/02-tcoa.pdf
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From: Wartime Germany's Anti-Gas Air Raid Shelters: A Refutation of Pressac's 'Criminal Traces' - Samuel Crowell
https://archive.is/YaWu3
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From Pressac's book on Auschwitz, pages 319-329: https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0319.shtml

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Please note the size of the elevator: 4 x 9 foot. It is claimed that 500,000 Jews were pulled up with this manually operated elevator..

More info: viewtopic.php?t=12724

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Louis S » 3 months 20 hours ago (Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:04 pm)

Looks to be either 29.37 meter or 30.00 which equals 32 - 32.8 yards. So 30 yards is about correct for the alleged homicidal gas chamber.
Thanks for clarifying with the exact measurements.

Please note the size of the elevator: 4 x 9 foot. It is claimed that 500,000 Jews were pulled up with this manually operated elevator.
I've never really thought of it that way. I'm starting to to recognize the silliness of some of these claims.

74CBB928-2600-4715-B4B1-E887008817D9.png

Here’s an amateur sketch that makes use of the details that I have uncovered, thanks to the blueprints you have provided. Is there any components that you believe should be corrected or perhaps some common knowledge that should be added to the diagram?

LS

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 19 hours ago (Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:46 pm)

I think it looks good. Have you seen a 3D view of the building?

Denierbud at the beginning of this video shows a 3d model and goes through it showing what the alleged gassing process was supposed to be like:



I posted some 3D models in this thread:

Where are blueprints, schematics and plans?
viewtopic.php?t=12251

I do not know exactly how accurate the 3D models are though, in terms of building dimensions
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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Hannover » 3 months 15 hours ago (Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:20 pm)

Lamprecht:
Please note the size of the elevator: 4 x 9 foot. It is claimed that 500,000 Jews were pulled up with this manually operated elevator.
Louis S:
I've never really thought of it that way. I'm starting to to recognize the silliness of some of these claims.
LS
And recall that it's alleged that 2000 per batch were supposedly moved up that 4 X 9 ft. elevator in a mere minutes to clear the way while an alleged another batch waited outside. Not to mention the fact that Zyklon-B takes many hours to completely outgas it cyanide load, so then .....

For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process, see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Louis S » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:13 pm)

I think it looks good. Have you seen a 3D view of the building?
I came across this 3d model on SketchUp. Though I'm not sure if it is identical to its real life counterpart.

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... m-II?hl=en

Denierbud at the beginning of this video shows a 3d model and goes through it showing what the alleged gassing process was supposed to be like:
That model looked like it was developed quite well. Do we happen to know what program he used?

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:46 pm)

I do not know what he used, maybe you could PM him?
viewtopic.php?t=11631
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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Louis S » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:52 am)

And recall that it's alleged that 2000 per batch were supposedly moved up that 4 X 9 ft. elevator in a mere minutes to clear the way while an alleged another batch waited outside. Not to mention the fact that Zyklon-B takes many hours to completely outgas it cyanide load, so then .....
Here is the elevator designed by Snakewrangler(architect of Krema 2 on Sketchup).
E102D64D-8840-4651-BA1E-AB0B64F70C72.jpeg
44D4189F-D270-4637-80E8-F37CFABA3DC7.jpeg
8’ 3/8” equals 2.55 meters and 7’ 3” equals 2.13 meters. I assume this is a mistake on Snakewrangler’s part?

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Zulu » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:45 pm)

Lamprecht:
Please note the size of the elevator: 4 x 9 foot. It is claimed that 500,000 Jews were pulled up with this manually operated elevator.

The 1500 kg capacity Demag elevator which was planed to be installed at Krema II never was delivered according with Carlo Mattogno. So, the alleged 500,000 Jews killed there were supposed to have been lifted up to the the ovens' level with that improvised artifact of 300 kg payload (up to 5 corpses ).

Krema II. Elevator 300kg.png

Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, AUSCHWITZ: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, page 488

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 pm)

Where does Mattogno state that it was never delivered? I will have to review Pressac's book to see where he evidences the claim that it was in fact replaced (bottom sentence of your image)
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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Zulu » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:25 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Where does Mattogno state that it was never delivered? I will have to review Pressac's book to see where he evidences the claim that it was in fact replaced (bottom sentence of your image)


Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz, The Case for Sanity, p 49-51., November 2010

p. 50 we can read:
Nonetheless, this poorly functioning elevator stayed in place until
the end.

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Zulu » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:38 pm)

Zulu wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Where does Mattogno state that it was never delivered? I will have to review Pressac's book to see where he evidences the claim that it was in fact replaced (bottom sentence of your image)


Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz, The Case for Sanity, p 49-51., November 2010
Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz, The Case for Sanity, p 50-52., November 2010.pdf
p. 50 we can read:
Nonetheless, this poorly functioning elevator stayed in place until
the end.


Mattogno added on p. 53&54
The most serious matter, however, is van Pelt’s complete silence about the fact that the freight elevator installed in crematorium II was the “Plateauaufzug” (flat-plate elevator) with a capacity of 300 kg. Therefore an extermination of 500,000 people in crematorium II would have been implemented using this primitive and poorly functioning de- vice. As its capacity was 300 kg or an average of 5 bodies of 60 kg at a time, the elevator would have had to do a total of 200,000 runs, 100,000 up and 100,000 down!
If we assume an average duration of five minutes for one complete operation (loading, upward journey, unloading, downward journey) the transportation of 2,000 bodies from the half-basement to the furnace hall (the hypothesis discussed by Irving, see van Pelt 2002, p. 470) would have taken ([2,000÷5]×5 =) 2,000 minutes or some 33 hours. Such an average duration, which corresponds to 1 minute for the transit time up and down63 and 4 minutes for the loading and unloading of the bodies (i.e. an average of 24 seconds for loading and another 24 seconds for unloading one corpse), is definitely too short for two rea- sons:
First of all, the elevator worked poorly, therefore one has to allow for lost time due to breakdowns, blockages, and delays. Secondly, ac- cording to the witness Henry Tauber, in crematorium II (and III) four detainees were assigned to the elevator, two for loading, and two for un- loading, they worked in 12-hour shifts (Tauber 1945a, p. 9). Even if we assume, for the time being, an average transit time of 5 minutes per load, these detainees, by mid-shift, i.e. after 6 hours, would have han- dled and moved ([6×60÷5×300] =) 21,600 kg, and the increasing strain would have reduced their efficiency more and more.
It is thus clear that the average transit time for one load was higher, which makes the alleged movement of 500,000 corpses even more gro- tesque. As the maximum number of days during which crematorium II was operational was 433, the elevator would have had to perform
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
63 Van Pelt’s anonymous engineer assumed a duration of 30 seconds but, surprisingly, con- sidered only the upward journey of the elevator. Van Pelt 2002, p. 469.

p.54

(500,000÷5÷433=) 231 trips per operating day, each of which would have required on average (1,440÷231=) a little over 6 minutes (i.e. 1 minute for each round trip and 30 seconds each for loading and unload- ing each corpse), without interruption over 433 days (see chapter 8.8.1.), 24 hours a day – a truly absurd idea!
In conclusion, the freight elevator is in perfect agreement with the actual number of cremations, something like 20,000 for crematorium II, but is absolutely out of proportion when it comes to the gigantic figures of a mass exterminations cited by van Pelt.

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Louis S » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:21 pm)

I have a question about this particular blueprint that Lamprecht presented.
0C9AB6CE-5F22-4840-9CEF-141652A3522F.jpeg


Does the number underlined in red say that it is 2 meters from Leichenkeller 2’s floor to ground level?
Does the number underlined in red say it is 2.44 meters from the floor to the ceiling of Leichenkeller 2?
4458E5A6-7618-4F72-973A-7C292E901B2F.jpeg

Sorry for missing it the first time, LS

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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:52 pm)

Louis S wrote:I have a question about this particular blueprint that Lamprecht presented.
0C9AB6CE-5F22-4840-9CEF-141652A3522F.jpeg


Does the number underlined in red say that it is 2 meters from Leichenkeller 2’s floor to ground level?
Does the number underlined in red say it is 2.44 meters from the floor to the ceiling of Leichenkeller 2?4458E5A6-7618-4F72-973A-7C292E901B2F.jpeg
Sorry for missing it the first time, LS

Maybe, but maybe not; it's hard to see. I can't even make out some of the characters.
Maybe this is a better version:
Image


That is the undressing room anyway, here is the alleged homicidal gas chamber. Possibly it can give you insights on how to interpret that other image (multiple photos because it is also hard to make out):
Image
Image

I am also surprised nobody has made any better quality version of these images. Well, I am not going to do it :lol:

EDIT: I also suggest the table at the bottom here:
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0286.shtml
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Krema 2 Measurements

Postby Zulu » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:50 am)

Lamprecht wrote:EDIT: I also suggest the table at the bottom here:
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0286.shtml


There are several modifications according with drawings. For instance, in that one ATO p.323, the heights for both Leichenkeller is 2,40m.
ATO Pressac Krema II p.0323.jpg

The latest date on drawings would be the good one as I suppose Pressac took this into account by retaining 2,41m.
On his table Pressac (ATO p.286) gives volumes of L1 & 2 which are wrong because the volumes of the beams of ceilings and ventilation ducts in the superior corners of L1 must be subtracted.
ATO Pressac Krema II Dim p.286.png

I think remarkable that the famous "introduction holes" don't appear on any drawing on the ceiling of L1.
Another remark is that the French site phdn.org mentions that most of "historians" don't sustain the Pressac's thesis alleging that Kremas were presumably not planed first as criminal but were "modified" afterwards in order to carry out the "extermination plan" (criminal modifications).
Another proof that exterminationist "historians" are idiots who don't understand how industrial and construction things work.
Il y avait cinq "Kremas", chacun incluant entre autres choses, une chambre à gaz d'extermination et des fourneaux de crémation pour les victimes. Le premier a été détourné de son utilisation d'origine. Les quatre autres ont été étudiés pour être des chambres à gaz dès le départ.

(On peut cependant mentionner le cas de Jean-Claude Pressac, chercheur amateur respecté et talentueux, qui croit que les deux plus grands Krémas [N.d.T.: c'est-à-dire, les deux pièces utilisées comme chambres à gaz dans les crématoires II et III] ont été initialement mis au point comme morgues, puis convertis en chambres à gaz tout de suite après leur construction. Il fait partie d'une minorité dans cette opinion [N.d.T: les travaux les plus récents, à savoir les études de Michael Thad Allen — voir plus bas —, démontrent que, dès leur planification, les Kremas II et III ont bien été pensés pour abriter des chambres à gaz destinées au meurtre de masse. Ces débats historiographiques sur la nature des premiers projets ne remettent évidemment nullement en question le fait que les Kremas II et III ont abrité des chambres à gaz dès leur entrée en fonction].)
https://phdn.org/negation/66QER/qer14.html

Translation
There were five "Kremas", each including, among other things, a gas chamber of extermination and cremation stoves for the victims. The first was diverted from its original use. The other four were studied to be gas chambers from the start.

(We can however mention the case of Jean-Claude Pressac, respected and talented amateur researcher, who believes that the two largest Kremas [ie, the two parts used as gas chambers in the crematoria II and III] were originally developed as mortuaries, then converted to gas chambers right after construction. It is part of a minority in this opinion, that is to say, the studies of Michael Thad Allen - see below - show that, from their planning, the Kremas II and III have been well thought out for to house gas chambers for mass murder. These historiographical debates on the nature of the first projects obviously do not call into question the fact that the Kremas II and III have housed gas chambers since they took office].).
.../

[N.d.T.: of Michael Thad Allen,read "The Devil in the Details: The Gas Chambers of Birkenau, October 1941", Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 16, Issue 2, Fall 2002. As well as from the same author "Not Just a Dating Game: Witness Testimony of the Origins of the Holocaust at Auschwitz", German History, Vol. 25, No. 2, 2007.]


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