NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1815
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:23 am

NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Moderator » 1 year 2 months ago (Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:03 pm)

In order to facilitate an orderly debate I have made this thread for discussion about a post made by registrant NFrNJ, quoted below.

It was originally posed in this thread:
Hilarious "21 Questions for Holocaust Revisionists" graphic
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12911

I assume he/she will respond to rebuttals, comments.
Thanks.
NFrNJ wrote:"what would be surprising is to use 3,000 men to exterminate millions of Jews." said Lamprecht.

should that not be "use 3,000 men to organise the mass shooting of about 1.4 million jews, using local forces, with support from the local police, army and auxiliary units"?

not millions... and not all by themselves.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Hannover » 1 year 2 months ago (Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:25 pm)

We are curious as to what proof NFrNJ has to show us.
Please present your proof, NFrNJ.

And as usual, his number reflects the fact that the accusers cannot keep their lies straight, as in the ever changing numbers, contradicting claims, and increasingly, retreats

Actually, the 'holocau$t' Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, some even say more. These alleged enormous mass graves & immense human remains are claimed to exist in specifically known places, yet we never see these claimed remains.
So, is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?

Welcome.

- Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions upon millions to be seen in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

NFrNJ
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:10 am

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby NFrNJ » 1 year 2 months ago (Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:19 pm)

I cannot vouch for those who you say now claim those figures - I have not done so. The 1.4 million figure seems to be based on the actual operational reports so far as i can see. However whether it is one million or two, or any number in between, isn't the point , is it? The point was that Lamprecht was clearly suggesting that the 3000 men were supposed to have done all the work by themselves without any support.

It is that claim I would suggest is disingenuous. All the exterminationists say that they were aided by local forces and the army, and that they acted to co-ordinate the actions, as well as take part in them. A relatively small cadre of men would do that job quite adequately.

If the holes in the exterminationist argument are so great, there is no need to pretend that they claim things they do not - I think that is called straw man building, adn to do so undermines the impact of the Revisionist argument. If revisionists cannot be seen to argue without having to resort to fallacies and lies then why would anyone believe that side of the argument at all? Isn't that the same charge that revisionists make against the exterminationists?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Hannover » 1 year 2 months ago (Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:03 pm)

NFrNJ wrote:I cannot vouch for those who you say now claim those figures - I have not done so. The 1.4 million figure seems to be based on the actual operational reports so far as i can see. However whether it is one million or two, or any number in between, isn't the point , is it? The point was that Lamprecht was clearly suggesting that the 3000 men were supposed to have done all the work by themselves without any support.

It is that claim I would suggest is disingenuous. All the exterminationists say that they were aided by local forces and the army, and that they acted to co-ordinate the actions, as well as take part in them. A relatively small cadre of men would do that job quite adequately.

If the holes in the exterminationist argument are so great, there is no need to pretend that they claim things they do not - I think that is called straw man building, adn to do so undermines the impact of the Revisionist argument. If revisionists cannot be seen to argue without having to resort to fallacies and lies then why would anyone believe that side of the argument at all? Isn't that the same charge that revisionists make against the exterminationists?

The fact is that you DID say 1.4 million, while the "Holocaust Industry" claims 2 million or more, depending on who is doing the most lying.
You said:
should that not be "use 3,000 men to organise the mass shooting of about 1.4 million jews

So, what "operational reports" are you supposedly referring to? Please show them to us.

Please present proof that "local forces" or any forces were involved in killing your now waffling figures of "one million or two".

Since you cannot prove your claimed "Revisionist fallacies and lies" I suggest that you are desperately projecting your own reliance on "fallacies and lies" onto Revisionists .... who rather easily have debunked the impossible claims.

And while you're at it, and since it is claimed that the human remains exist in known locations, please show us those claimed human remains.

- Hannover

The claimed '6M Jews & 5M others' is one helluva a lot of human remains to just disappear. That alleged 11M equals the population of London.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Lamprecht » 1 year 2 months ago (Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:51 pm)

Will NFrNJ:
1. Post a better answer to the question #1?
Or
2. Address the challenge in Hannover's post?
Or
3. Continue complaining about my omission of a particular detail in his/the author's fantastical & fictional "Holocaust" story?

NFrNJ:
clearly suggesting that the 3000 men were supposed to have done all the work by themselves without any support.

I agree that I could have been more specific about that because it is the standard storyline, so your initial point (that the "official story" includes local collaborating groups) is appreciated. The dodging however is not.

The question I was quoting did not specify anything of the sort with these local groups, and it was a response only to the questions. But of course, just because the 21 questions uses all sorts of strawman arguments isn't an excuse for me to have been careless with even one sentence of the hundreds I posted in response...

It still is ridiculous that they would have used only 3,000 of their own men for this alleged genocide, I contend. So we are to expect that the local forces which would have outnumbered them would be happy to go from town to town killing every Jew for no reason, keeping it top secret, and never turning around and executing these 500-1000 Germans instead? Never would they plot any sort of ambush? Hmmm... Maybe. But something being theoretically possible doesn't mean it happened, but the alternative case means it did not.

A better choice perhaps would be to conscript these local populations into normal warfare and use only a handful as guides and translators. But this is all hypothetical, since the alleged extermination of Jews is a fictional event.

It also would have been ridiculous for those involved in the moon landing to have used some moon "rocks" as cheese for a cheeseburger. But that is all contingent upon the moon being made of cheese, which is not true in the first place, so the particular details are meaningless.


Isn't that the same charge that revisionists make against the exterminationists?

Well you can read this yourself being done in the 21 questions, the author is obviously not very well read on the topic and does exactly that, it is perhaps the primary strategy of the exterminationists. Not that it justifies revisionists doing the same thing, but I don't equate a detail omission with a strawman in the first place. If that part was added to my brief response, you could have pulled out any number of other details and complain about my omission of them.

The reality is: since the alleged "extermination of jews" did not take place in the first place, the specific details are actually irrelevant.

What is most curious that you do not try to answer the question #1 better, nor do you try to answer the challenge in the OP of this thread. You merely reiterate the exact same thing that you already said. And I suspect that your next reply (if it happens) will do the very same thing.

whether it is one million or two, or any number in between, isn't the point , is it?

Sure it is the point. As is the entire accusation of an extermination policy, which you appear unable to substantiate.

All you are doing is complaining that someone who does not believe in your ridiculous fantasy has not explained it in exactly the way you wish it was, and then dodging the challenge to prove it actually happened in the way you allege. Surely if you reply again, you will reiterate how much this minor detail ommission bothers you - something us "Deniers" have experienced in nearly every single discussion we have had on this issue. I guess we're just used to it though.

there is no need to pretend that they claim things they do not

So I take it that you are admitting to being the author of the laughable 21 questions, or a personal acquaintance of him/her who has been explicitly told that the author does in fact state what you are saying they believe? I don't accept the premise that you are telepathic and can actually know what the author believes. :)
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

NFrNJ
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:10 am

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby NFrNJ » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:28 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Will NFrNJ:
1. Post a better answer to the question #1?

better in what way? I answered it truthfully, and fully. You just don't agree.
Lamprecht wrote:Or
2. Address the challenge in Hannover's post?


the challenge to say what reports? Surely after all these years Hannover knows about them? He is supposed to be an expert on the holocaust. Oh well
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... eport.html

lists them and has copies to read.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/e ... er-killed/

presents recent research, please note that this article says it was at least 1,152,73. So I am prepared to lower my estimate, not 1;4 but at least 1.1 million.

Lamprecht wrote:It still is ridiculous that they would have used only 3,000 of their own men for this alleged genocide, I contend. So we are to expect that the local forces which would have outnumbered them would be happy to go from town to town killing every Jew for no reason, keeping it top secret, and never turning around and executing these 500-1000 Germans instead? Never would they plot any sort of ambush? Hmmm... Maybe.

and why would they have done that? The locals enthusiastically participated in pogroms and jew killing before the war, and during it. For your fantasy to work you would have to posit a population that was totally anti german. Many in the east welcomed the nazis overthrow of the communists. For your fantasy to be even remotely plausible you would also have to imagine the local police force thinking they could with impunity kill a couple of hundred German SS police and get away with it. And not have their families adn entire towns Lidiced. It really suggests that you have no idea of the conditions of the time or place. Your fantasy of what we should expect - mass revolt of police agaisn the SS in occupied territory with millions of german soldiers nearby - is so implausible that it is the ridiculous idea here.


Lamprecht wrote:A better choice perhaps would be to conscript these local populations into normal warfare and use only a handful as guides and translators.
says you. maybe a better choice would be to have got the locals to make hot air balloons and go hunting from them? or any other nonsense that they didn't do. why not make them all forma circus to entertain teh troops? Or do Fire Poi? or... (add in any other wild and ridiculous nonsense here)

Lamprecht wrote: But this is all hypothetical, since the alleged extermination of Jews is a fictional event.

so the reports linked to above, copies of which were sent to Himmler were fiction? Just a nice bedtime story to type up in large font for Hitler to read.

Breker
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Europa

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Breker » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:56 pm)

Mr. / Ms. NfrNJ:
I see you dodged Mr. Hannover's challenges to you as were so clearly stated in a previous post in this thread.

I shall repeat them for you.

- Mr. Hannover asked of you: So, what "operational reports" are you supposedly referring to? Please show them to us.

- Mr. Hannover requested from you: Please present proof that "local forces" or any forces were involved in killing your now waffling figures of "one million or two".

- Mr. H. goes on to ask:
The claimed '6M Jews & 5M others' is one helluva a lot of human remains to just disappear. That alleged 11M equals the population of London.
And while you're at it, and since it is claimed that the human remains exist in known locations, please show us those claimed human remains.


Merry Christmas to all.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:30 pm)

The issue with blindly trusting the numbers in "reports" is that anyone can type anything they want on a piece of paper. The numbers provided could easily have been exaggerated/invented. What is curious though is that many of these reports provide justifications for the shootings when we are supposed to believe they were instructed to exterminate Jews because they were Jews. The fact that Jews were shot in Europe during WWII is not disputed, what is disputed is whether or not there was a policy of genocide against the Jews of Europe. The lack of physical evidence for the claimed "over 1 million" victims is also troublesome for your hypothesis.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Hannover » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:57 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:The issue with blindly trusting the numbers in "reports" is that anyone can type anything they want on a piece of paper. The numbers provided could easily have been exaggerated/invented. What is curious though is that many of these reports provide justifications for the shootings when we are supposed to believe they were instructed to exterminate Jews because they were Jews. The fact that Jews were shot in Europe during WWII is not disputed, what is disputed is whether or not there was a policy of genocide against the Jews of Europe. The lack of physical evidence for the claimed "over 1 million" victims is also troublesome for your hypothesis.

Indeed.
Heaven knows that forgeries are everywhere in regards to alleged German actions In WWII. This forum has exposed example after example.
And of course Jews were a big part of the cowardly terrorist 'partisans' who were legally executed when caught.
Those legal execution have been predictably exaggerated and labelled 'holocaust victims'.

Thanks Breker, I seriously doubt if NFrNJ can produce what he claims. No surprise there.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

fireofice
Member
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:55 am

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby fireofice » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:04 am)

We know that not all numbers in the reports are accurate.

As far back as the 1970s, Arthur Butz made the important revisionist point that anti-guerilla warfare units of the German army, the Einsatzgruppen, exterminated some Russian Jews by mass shootings. The war on the Eastern Front was not fought on the basis of the “traditional rules of warfare,” as it involved much partisan activity and guerilla warfare. Measures were taken by the German army to counter this partisan activity, and one of them was to have the Einsatzgruppen units search out and execute partisans and people collaborating with partisans. Undoubtedly the Einsatzgruppen must have shot many Jews, although we are unsure as to how many lost their lives due this cause. Naturally, many non-Jews were also executed.[18]

In his 2001 book, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the The David Irving Trial, Oxford history Professor Richard Evans castigated David Irving in two places for arguing that Einsatzgruppen commanders deliberately inflated the number of Jews executed by mass shooting. Evans accused Irving with attempting to rationalize away evidence that does not fit his theories.[19]

In The Origins of the Final Solution, Browning cites an example where a German official did over-estimate the number of Jews shot on the Eastern Front by German forces. The over-estimation is contained in the "Hahn summary report" of December 10, 1941. Five Einsatzgruppen reports were summarized by Franz Rademacher's assistant, Fritz Gebhard von Hahn. At this point we let Browning continue with his story: "He [Hahn] extrapolated, however, from the examples of EK 2 and 3 in the Baltic, and wrongly, concluded that each individual Sonderkommado had on average liquidated 70,000 -80,000 Jews. The result was an over- rather than underestimate of the number of Jews murdered, but clearly Hahn had not failed to grasp the significance of the reports concerning the intended fate of Soviet Jewry [p. 402]."

So there you have it. Here is an example that supports Irving’s theory–at least one of those Einsatzgruppen reports contained exaggerated statistics in regard to the number of Jews shot. Could other such reports also contain similar exaggerations? Clearly, historians will have to do more unbiased research to see if this indeed the case.


https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... topher/en/

One thing to put the Einsatzgruppen in perspective is to look at the Vietnam war. In that war, you had a bunch of civilians known as the "Vietcong" engage against warfare against the American military. This resulted in atrocities on the American side. This is an unfortunate but inevitable part of partisan warfare. You have an almost identical situation on the eastern front in the second world war.

I stressed that the German policy towards the Jews in the occupied Soviet territories cannot be understood without taking into account the merciless war that was raging at the time between regimes with mortally opposed ideologies. The grim work of the Einsatzgruppen must be evaluated within the context of the savage conflict that was being waged outside of the accepted rules of warfare. I mentioned Stalin's order of July 3, 1941, calling on the entire Soviet civilian population to conduct a campaign of terror, sabotage and guerrilla warfare against the Germans. The Jews were especially active in this campaign, as numerous Jewish historians have proudly acknowledged, I said.

History shows that only extremely harsh measures seem to work against guerrilla or terrorist forces, I said, citing the experience of the American forces in Vietnam and the French in Algeria. I also mentioned the current conflict between the Israelis and the fighters of the PLO, who are regarded as terrorists by the Israelis and freedom fighters by the Palestinians.

...

On another occasion, I compared the sometimes very severe measures taken by the Einsatzgruppen with the "free fire zone" policy of the Americans during the Vietnam war. American forces would evacuate all Vietnamese civilians from designated areas to so-called "strategic hamlets," which in their forced resettlement of civilians were not unlike concentration camps. Any Vietnamese remaining in the so-called "free fire zones" were subject to extermination on the assumption that they were hostile and dangerous.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p389_Weber.html

In the Vietnam war, it is also well known that many of the killing and body count reports from official sources were inflated. No doubt this happened with the Einsatzgruppen reports as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_W ... ontroversy

The numbers of Jews said to have been shot in the Einsatzgruppen reports are wildly exaggerated, I emphasized, in much the same way that the so-called "body count" figures of enemy dead produced by the American military during the Vietnam war were greatly inflated.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p389_Weber.html

Clay
Member
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Clay » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:38 am)

NFrNJ wrote:

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ezg5-number-killed/

presents recent research, please note that this article says it was at least 1,152,73. So I am prepared to lower my estimate, not 1;4 but at least 1.1 million.


So please tell us NFrNJ:

The largest mass grave (in terms of quantity of remains) that you can prove contains remains of these 1,152,73 allegedly "holocausted jews" is located where?

Remember now NFrNJ, the site you linked to above makes the following unsubstantiated allegation:


The facts are:

The crimes of the Einsatzgruppen are the best documented of the Holocaust. In addition to survivor, bystander, and perpetrator eyewitness testimony, there is physical evidence in the form of graves and bodies.

Clay
Member
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Re: NFrNJ says: '1.4M Jews shot by Germans and auxillaries'

Postby Clay » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:43 am)

NFrNJ:

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ezg5-number-killed/

presents recent research, please note that this article says it was at least 1,152,73. So I am prepared to lower my estimate, not 1;4 but at least 1.1 million.


And said site alleges:

The facts are:

The crimes of the Einsatzgruppen are the best documented of the Holocaust.


However, the USHMM Holocaust Encyclopedia webpage

( https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/einsatzgruppen )

makes the following allegation:

The Einsatzgruppen were key perpetrators of mass shooting operations in which more than a third of Jewish Holocaust victims died.


So NFrNJ, please tell us if you believe:

A - The USHMM Holocaust Encyclopedia website is lying about how many jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen.

or

B - 1.1 million jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen represents more than a third of jewish holocaust victims who died during the holocaust.

???

As well NFrNJ, please tell us how the numbers of alleged deaths attributed to the Einsatzgruppen can vary so much if "The crimes of the Einsatzgruppen are the best documented of the Holocaust."

If that is true NFrNJ, then what does that tell you about the accuracy of the exterminationists holocaust "scholarship"?

Edited to add:

NFrNJ, please tell us; what percentage of the number of jews who died during the holocaust were [supposedly] killed by the Einsatzgruppen?


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests