Did the Germans destroy the Reinhardt train records? (Treblinka / Sobibor / Belzec)

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Lamprecht
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Did the Germans destroy the Reinhardt train records? (Treblinka / Sobibor / Belzec)

Postby Lamprecht » 9 months 1 week ago (Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:41 pm)

A few days ago I was discussing the lack of records on another site in a debate. Since the train records for Treblinka 2, Sobibor, and Belzec are almost completely gone, we do not know what is in them. Either side could infer conspiratorial motive: The Germans destroyed them because they wanted to hide genocide / The Soviets destroyed them because it would exonerate the Germans from these "Extermination camp" claims.

I posted 4 different exterminationist sources here claiming that one Soviet aerial bomb destroyed all Belzec train records in July 1944, two weeks before they reached the Belzec camp: viewtopic.php?p=91912#p91912

But it is impossible to know with complete certainty that they were actually destroyed in that bomb, perhaps they were in the building, and then the records were destroyed by the Germans, and afterwards the bomb destroyed the building.
Merely "trying to hide something" is not proof of mass murder; the "transit camp thesis" does not imply or even suggest that the operation would have been uncontroversial. Quite the opposite: The mass resettlement of Jews was, according to document 3244-PS (Martin Bormann on the solution of the Jewish Problem) something that:
"not all 'Blood Germans' are capable of demonstrating sufficient understanding for the necessity of..." viewtopic.php?t=9280
I will also point to my recent thread on the deaths in transit to these camps: viewtopic.php?t=12910

The following document was posted in the "21 Questions for Holocaust Revisionists".
Thread: viewtopic.php?t=12911
Document: http://archive.is/gfEbM

The page calls it "Operation Reinhard Secrecy Oath" and the document refers to "evacuation of Jews" - not killing or extermination. The "21 Questions" asked why the "oath" says no photographs can be taken, which is standard procedure for such controversial military operations. So it would be understandable that the Germans would destroy the train records even if the camps were "Merely transit centers" - perhaps if they knew that they would have a genocide blamed on them they would not have destroyed them, but this is just one speculation after another.

Anyway, in the debate a document was cited as evidence that the Germans destroyed the train records. I closed the page and now I can not find the referenced document. It may have been this one, since I think it was either to or from Globocnik (if my memory serves me, as that name for some reason):
5 January 1944 Globocnik Report to Himmler (4024-PS) on Operation Reinhard(t)
viewtopic.php?t=12359
There is one additional factor to be added to the total accounting of "Reinhardt" which is that the vouchers dealing with it must be destroyed as soon as possible after the data have already been destroyed by all other works concerned in this matter.
The "Vouchers" here are not train records, but it does say "all other works concerned in this matter" which presumably could also include the train records.


I will keep digging to see if I can find that original document that was cited.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: Did the Germans destroy the Reinhardt train records? (Treblinka / Sobibor / Belzec)

Postby Hannover » 9 months 1 week ago (Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:56 am)

I raised the missing outbound records issue many years ago.
see:
'Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355

What proof is there that a Soviet plane bombed a train car with the outbound records?

Is there a German original for the claimed: "5 January 1944 Globocnik Report to Himmler (4024-PS) on Operation Reinhard(t)" to review?

But then the alleged "gassings" at the Reinhardt camps were scientifically impossible as alleged and the alleged truly immense amounts of human remains said to exist in supposedly known locations at the Reinhardt camps in fact do not exist. :lol:
So then ...

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Did the Germans destroy the Reinhardt train records? (Treblinka / Sobibor / Belzec)

Postby Lamprecht » 9 months 1 week ago (Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:51 am)

From the thread you linked:
- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

So we have the inbound records? For how many people at T+B+S?
If it is the case that the inbound records were not destroyed, then I don't think we can infer that the statement there in the 4024-PS document is also saying the train records should be destroyed. If the Germans went through all the trouble to use "Resettlement" as a "code word" over and over to mean "extermination" - but then decided to destroy the outbound records - they could have also forged a bunch of fake outbound records.


The 4024-PS document is about Aktion Reinhardt being a overall resettlement/expulsion policy of Jews but also including confiscation of their various assets.
Obviously, they were not going to resettle the Jews across Europe along with all of their furniture and personal belongings. The document also states that the people relocated "will receive a suitable compensation" for the things that are taken.
The "Vouchers" in that quote appear to be referring to documents describing seized assets, or at least that's what I got out of it.

The entire thing is here in English: https://codoh.com/library/document/894/

Faurisson discusses where the document is found and discussed at Nuremberg:
At the Nuremberg trial, the prosecution used the selection of documents grouped under classification mark PS-4024 (published in Trial of the Major War Criminals [IMT] vol. XXXIV, p. 58-92), which concerns the economic part of Aktion Reinhardt. The matter was brought up during the hearings of August 5, 6 and 16, 1946. For its treatment in the August 5 session, pages 318-327 in volume XX of the English IMT are to be consulted (German version: p. 349-359). In the same volume XX, pages 422-424 contain its handling on August 6 (German version: p. 460-462). The relevant transcript from August 16 is to be found on pages 239-241 of volume XXI (German version: p. 268-270).
https://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/20 ... -1986.html

So, here is the German text (page 58-92): https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law ... -XXXIV.pdf

What proof is there that a Soviet plane bombed a train car with the outbound records?

Not a train car.
According to these 4 sources: viewtopic.php?p=91912#p91912
The entire Belzec railway station was destroyed with one bomb dropped from a Soviet plane on 4 July 1944. So whatever documents were in that building were destroyed.
I will have to search more into the Belzec inbound records also.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


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