Riga, November 30, 1941

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Did the liquidation of this Berlin transport actually occur?

Yes
2
25%
No
3
38%
I don't know
3
38%
 
Total votes: 8

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Sailor
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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:24 pm)

Hebden wrote: We bid you to read the texts more closely for greater comprehension. Evidently you have failed to grasp the train of events.


Browning/Gerlach I assume that Hebden’s quoted text is from Brown’s expert witness report of the Irving trial. It lists as its source the socalled “Einsatzgruppen Reports”. However there are serious questions raised about the accuracy of these Reports.
Please refer to “Partisanenkrieg und Repressaltötungen” (Partisan War and Reprisal Killings”) http://vho.org/VffG/1999/2/RudolfSchroeder145-153.html
For the English reader I posted on the old Air-Forum a summary of it:
http://www.air-photo.org/wwwboard/brev_ ... 20839.html

Could Hebden specifically indicate what in the Brown/Gerlach text convinced him of the murder?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:24 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Browning/Gerlach I assume that Hebden’s quoted text is from Brown’s expert witness report of the Irving trial.


No, from Mr. Browning's book Nazi Policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers, a collection of the George Macaulay Trevelyan Lectures given by him at Cambridge University in 1999.

It lists as its source the socalled “Einsatzgruppen Reports”. However there are serious questions raised about the accuracy of these Reports.
Please refer to “Partisanenkrieg und Repressaltötungen” (Partisan War and Reprisal Killings”) http://vho.org/VffG/1999/2/RudolfSchroeder145-153.html
For the English reader I posted on the old Air-Forum a summary of it:
http://www.air-photo.org/wwwboard/brev_ ... 20839.html


Here we differ. In our judgement, there aren't sufficient grounds to undermine the authenticity of the reports.

Could Hebden specifically indicate what in the Brown/Gerlach text convinced him of the murder?


The bottom line has to be the OSR report.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:44 pm)

Sailor wrote:Breitman refers to a German police decode. I don’t know which decodes he is referring to. Does Hebden? What does it say?


No. 471, Dec 4, 1941, decodes of traffic of Dec 1, 1941: Item 24

(on page 3) reads,

"OEJ de DSQ SSD DSQ Nr 3 1930 2 Tle 175 71 SPK1 3742

SS Obergruppenführer Jeckeln, Höherer SS und Pol.führer Ostland, Riga. Der Rf SS bittet Sie am 4.12.41 zu einer Besprechung zu ihm. Ich bitte um Angabe, wann Sie hier eintreffen, bezw. mit welchem Verkehrsmittel Sie kommen (wegen Abholung).

Gez. Grothmann, SS Hauptsturmführer und Adjutant."

Immediately following Item 25 reads:

"OEJ de DSQ DSAQ Nr 4 1930 2 Tle 177 75 DSPK1 3742

An Höheren SS und Pol. Führer Ostland, Riga.

Die in das Gebiet Ostland ausgesiedelten Juden sind nur nach den von mir bezw, [sic] vom Reichssicherheitshauptamt in meinem Auftrage gegebenen Richtlinien zu behandeln. Eigenmächtigkeiten und Zuwiederhandlungen [sic] würde ich bestrafen. Gez. H. Himmler."


http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html


Breitman refers to “Gesamtaufstellung […]”. I don’t know what this is. Does Hebden?


No.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:39 pm)

Hebden said:
The bottom line has to be the OSR report


But why? Serious doubts about have been raised:

-http://www.air-photo.org/wwwboard/brev_letter/20839.html

-no originals reproduced

- no physical forensic evidence to support them

Why believe when there is no basis other than questionable allegations of alleged document contents.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:28 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hebden said:
The bottom line has to be the OSR report


But why? Serious doubts about have been raised:

Hannover


Have serious doubts been raised over the following, which all fit the standard version of events?

Mr. Himmler's telephone note of November 30: To Mr. Heydrich commanding Berlin transport not to be liquidated.

Mr. Himmler's telephone note of December 1: To Mr. Heydrich about 'executions at Riga'.

Two December 1 British intercepts from Mr. Himmler to SS Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckeln warning him that any further contraventions of the guidelines in regard to the Reich Jews being 'outplaced to the Ostland'will be punished and ordering him back to Berlin forthwith.

It's up to you to provide another plausible interpretation for the above sequence of messages.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:39 pm)

Hebden asks:
Have serious doubts been raised over the following, which all fit the standard version of events?

Mr. Himmler's telephone note of November 30: To Mr. Heydrich commanding Berlin transport not to be liquidated.

Again, nobody was killed, that is clear...so much for a policy of 'extermination'.
As stated before, the train could well have been carrying common civilian criminals who were subject to execution, but in this case an exception was made. No proof to the contrary, and proof is required when making assertions about mass murder.
Mr. Himmler's telephone note of December 1: To Mr. Heydrich about 'executions at Riga'.

Executions were common for illegal, non-unformed combatants, saboteurs, spies, and for the Communists (disproportionately Jews) who had brutalized the Latvian population prior to German arrival...there was a war on you know.
Two December 1 British intercepts from Mr. Himmler to SS Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckeln warning him that any further contraventions of the guidelines in regard to the Reich Jews being 'outplaced to the Ostland'will be punished and ordering him back to Berlin forthwith.

So? It says what is says. Jews must go the east, no exception, none can be allowed to stay where they are. Anyone not following this guideline will be punished. Again, no mass murders here.

So, we still have no proof of mass murders as Hebden alleges, only tortured readings of text which say nothing about murdering Jews.

Ofcourse, there is also the howling lack of human remains, even though 'eyewitnesses' state exact locations where remains should be found, but are not.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:01 am)

Also, how appropriate that Hebden cites a book here:

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr151.html
scroll down

which has as it's cover a fake photo here:

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/b ... s/arad.jpg

which is debunked here:

http://www.codoh.com/daspiktur.html

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby max » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:32 am)

Hannover wrote:Hebden asks:
Have serious doubts been raised over the following, which all fit the standard version of events?

Mr. Himmler's telephone note of November 30: To Mr. Heydrich commanding Berlin transport not to be liquidated.

Again, nobody was killed, that is clear...


Actually the telephone call came too late and the the transport was liquidated.

As stated before, the train could well have been carrying common civilian criminals who were subject to execution


But there is no evidence whatsoever that this was a transport of "civilian criminals who were subject to execution"!

No proof to the contrary, and proof is required when making assertions about mass murder.


But, and in contrast to your historically unfounded hyposthesis, there is evidence for the Riga shooting. The massacer is mentioned in Einsatzgruppen report Nr. 151 as well as in the war time diary of Peter Kleist from the Reichsministerium for the occupied territories in the East. Kleist was told by an employe of the Reichskommissariat für das Ostland in Riga about the massacre:

"Erzählung von Erschießung von 10 000den deutsche[n] + lett. Juden durch SS. RK habe zugesehen."

Christian Gerlach, Krieg Ernährung, Völkermord, page 91.


Ofcourse, there is also the howling lack of human remains, even though 'eyewitnesses' state exact locations where remains should be found, but are not.


SS-Oberführer Achamer-Pfirader in Riga received the order by Müller via Blobel to destroy the evidence. See affidavit of Paul Blobel http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ ... eid2.shtml

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Postby max » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:27 am)

As Hebden has pointed out, the massacre in Riga on November 30, 1941 is simply a plausible interpretation of the evidence. The transport from Berlin was liquidated in Riga on this day, according to the Einsatzgruppen report quoted by Hebden and the war time diary of a German offical quoted by me. Further, and in addition to the documentary evidence, the shooting is described in eyewitness accounts, for instance by the officer who ordered the execution, Friedrich Jeckeln.

On the same day Himmler telephoned to Heydrich not to liquidate this transport. Nevertheless, as we have seen, the execution took place. Consequently, on the next day Himmler telephoned again with Heydrich about "executions in Riga" and he ordered Jeckeln in Riga, who carried out the execution, to follow his guidelines regarding the Jews deported to the East and that contraventions of these guidelines, as it happend the day before, will be punished.

In conclusion, the German Jews were murdered in Riga and so I voted for yes.

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Postby max » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:12 am)

Sailor wrote:
Breitman refers to “Gesamtaufstellung […]”. I don’t know what this is. Does Hebden?


It's the so called Jäger-report, which documents the murder of 137 346 people within five months by German special forces!

http://www.david-irving.de/jaeger.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:59 am)

The Jaeger 'report' is a joke.

The 1st page is cropped where the official letterhead and markings would be found...if genuine....the cropping attempts to detract from what is not there. All we have here is scanned papers in German language typing, some Communist with a German typewriter could have done this little handiwork and signed it
The content is even more ridiculous; an alleged 137,000 in what alleged time length? And then there's no physical forensic evidence to support all this nonsense. So is it 10 sites of 13,700? 5 sites sites 27,000..what ? All these alleged huge centralized sites with alleged witnesses but no physical evidence? Impossible.
Oh yes...curiously, Jaeger conveniently "committed suicide" while he was awaiting trial. That certainly is one way to keep the accused from defending himself.
The so called 'Jaeger Report' is as transparent as any fraudulent document could possibly be. But then that is the "holocaust" as alleged.

Blobel:
What silliness. Blobel allegedly stated that at Babi Yar the cremation ovens were made from Jewish tombstone from the local Jewish cemetery.
Laughable, The whole deal is debunked by aerial phtography at the exact time of the alleged process, and that's right, nothing of the sort is happening.
Blobel on Pit Burning:
"I myself witnessed the burning of corpses in a mass grave near Kiev, during my visit in 8/1942. This grave was about 55m [meters] long, 3m wide, and 2.5 deep. When the cover had been lifted, the bodies were covered with fuel and set on fire. It took about two days for the grave to burn down. I myself saw that the grave became red-hot right down to the ground. Afterwards the grave was filled in, and thus all traces were as good as eliminated.
"Owing to the approach of the front, it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further to the south and the east, resulting from the executions of the Einsatzgruppen."

So Blobel states that "it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further to the south and the east"...but yet there is no physical evidence...oops.
What procedure did Blobel use to successfully “eliminate all traces’ I wonder?
And where did they get all that fuel from I wonder? For the size of a massgrave as stated, assuming partial decay of the bodies and a 30% fill factor we are talking 25,000 gallons of gasoline or oil for the top-down cremation.
I am at my limit of believability here.
And in the NMT Case 9 protocol the prosecution charges:
"The ashes, ground to dust in a bone mill, were thrown in the vast forests around. Staf. Blobel had the order to locate all mass graves in the entire Eastern Territory and to eliminate them...The work itself was carried out by Jewish work units, which, upon finishing their particular task, were shot. Concentration camp Auschwitz had to furnish continuously Jews for this Kommando."
Those bone mills, I wonder what kind of machines these were. They must have ground thousands, tens of thousands of bodies within a few days. With todays equipment it takes 1/2 hours to grind the bones of one body.
I am reaching again my limits of believability here.
And they never searched for, discovered and excavated any of the massgrave sites.
His alleged descriptions of course stretches credulity. Here again we have that strange lack of detail... would be curious to know what "inflammable material" would burn out such a grave for two days at a steady glow. The stuff might be what the Allies felt was necessary for their purposes. Blowing the graves up with dynamite is also quite curious. I would think that after doing that, the site would be more easily discovered than before. The whole story of Blobel and company is quite incredible.

While some executions took place, there was a war on, Blobel revealingly stated, when asked about executions:
Why, the executions of "agents, partisans, saboteurs, suspicious people, indulging in espionage and sabotage, and,those who were of a detrimental effect to the German Army," he stridently rejoined, "were, in my opinion, completely in accordance with the Hague Convention."


Max also apparently chooses to repeat the assertions with no evidence about Jackeln. The intercepts in question say nothing about murder. Again, what they says is the Jews must go the east, no exception, none can be allowed to stay where they are. Anyone not following this guideline will be punished. Again, no mass murders here.

Max states:
But there is no evidence whatsoever that this was a transport of "civilian criminals who were subject to execution"!

Ofcourse, he has no evidence that it was not and the onus is upon the accuser of crimes to produce such evidence. He has none.

Max also chose to ignore the evidence that Sailor posted which shows the complete unreliability of the so called 'Einsatzgruppen Reports'. Amazing.

You gotta love this whole thread..there was talk of 'liquidating the Riga ghetto' even though it's shown there was no 'ghetto'. There is incredible use of reading into text things not contained in the text. There are assertions of eliminating physical evidence, but that's shot down by aerial photos, Blobel himself, and the fact that alleged massive graves/cremation pits are easily found...but are not found.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:49 am)

max wrote:
Sailor wrote:
Breitman refers to “Gesamtaufstellung […]”. I don’t know what this is. Does Hebden?


It's the so called Jäger-report, which documents the murder of 137 346 people within five months by German special forces!

http://www.david-irving.de/jaeger.html


Mr. Breitman must be one of those people who try and impress their readers with obscure references.

Of course, we should have realised that the source for the shootings in Kovno was the Jaeger Report.

Nov. 25, 41
Kauen - F. IX
1159 Jewish men 1600 Jewish women 175 Jewish children (evacuees from Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt am Main) 2,934

Nov. 29, 41
“ “ 693 “ 1155 “ 152 (evacuees from Vienna and Breslau) 2,000


See http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/img005.htm

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Postby max » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:18 pm)

Hebden wrote:
max wrote:
Sailor wrote:
Breitman refers to “Gesamtaufstellung […]”. I don’t know what this is. Does Hebden?


It's the so called Jäger-report, which documents the murder of 137 346 people within five months by German special forces!

http://www.david-irving.de/jaeger.html


Mr. Breitman must be one of those people who try and impress their readers with obscure references.


Not sure what you mean. "Gesamtaufstellung der im Bereich des EK. 3 bis zum 1. Dez. durchgeführten Exekutionen." is the name of the report, after all.

Of course, we should have realised that the source for the shootings in Kovno was the Jaeger Report.

Right. At least one of you should have realised it.

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Postby max » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:03 pm)

Once again, the Riga mass shooting on November 30, 1941 is documented in the Einsatzgruppen report Nr. 151 and Sailor has not posted anything were the "complete unreliability" of the reports is shown.

The Riga mass shooting is mentioned in the war-time diary of a high German offical. Hannover has completely ignored this piece of strong documentary evidence, why?

These documents are confirmed by eyewitness accounts.

This evidence suggests that there was a mass shooting of Jews in Riga on 30 November 1941.




Again, what they says is the Jews must go the east, no exception, none can be allowed to stay where they are. Anyone not following this guideline will be punished. Again, no mass murders here.


Utterly nonsense. The radio signal doesn't say this! It says the Jews deported to the East have to be treated according to guidelines of Himmler or the RSHA.

Jeckeln was violating against Himmler's wish not to liquidate German Jews and thus he sent Jeckeln this message. That's the historical context of the message.




Hannover wrote:The Jaeger 'report' is a joke.

The 1st page is cropped where the official letterhead and markings
would be found...if genuine....the cropping attempts to detract from what is not there.


The report doesn't lack of anything. It has the characteristic markings as any other report by SS and police leaders.

There is incredible use of reading into text things not contained in the text.


Indeed!

For instance, Hannover claimed that "nobody was killed, that is clear" which doesn't follow from any document. He also claimed that "the train could well have been carrying common civilian criminals". There is nothing supporting this claim. And then he claimed a document says something about "the Jews must go the east, no exception, none can be allowed to stay where they are." Yet, there is no such document!

There are assertions of eliminating physical evidence, but that's shot down by aerial photos


The elimination of the traces of the massacre in Riga is not "shot down" by aerial photos. No such photo has ever been shown!

So I still have to vote "yes". Strong documentary supported by testimional evidence and very plausible implemented in the historical context and sequence of the events. On the other hand, nothing substanial offered by Revisionists.



Let's take a look what Hannover's 'no' means in practice:

It means the Einsatzgrupen report Nr. 151 is a forgery. Yet, there is no evidence indicating a forgery!

It means the war-time diary of the German official is a forgery. No evidence of course for this accusation!

It means all eyewitness accounts are a complete fabrication. No evidence either. Nor is that plausible and explainable.

It means that Himmler's note " Transport from Berlin. No Liquidation" refered to "civilian criminals who were subject to execution". There is no evidence that it did!

It means that Himmler's phone call to Heydrich "executions in Riga" was refering to something entirely else then the liquidation of the German Jews. However, there is zero evidence indicating that it did and to what else it refered.


Therefore, the claim that no massacre took place is

a) in contradiction to the evidence

b) forces us to make/draw radical and historically unfounded speculations/conclusions and

c) leaves more questions open than it pretends to answer.

It is therefore reasonable to accept the Riga massacre as historical fact.
Last edited by max on Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:11 pm)

max wrote:
Hebden wrote:
max wrote:
Sailor wrote:
Breitman refers to “Gesamtaufstellung […]”. I don’t know what this is. Does Hebden?


It's the so called Jäger-report, which documents the murder of 137 346 people within five months by German special forces!

http://www.david-irving.de/jaeger.html


Mr. Breitman must be one of those people who try and impress their readers with obscure references.


Not sure what you mean. "Gesamtaufstellung der im Bereich des EK. 3 bis zum 1. Dez. durchgeführten Exekutionen." is the name of the report, after all.


Just our little joke.

Of course, we should have realised that the source for the shootings in Kovno was the Jaeger Report.

Right. At least one of you should have realised it.


Oh, very droll.


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