Riga, November 30, 1941

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Did the liquidation of this Berlin transport actually occur?

Yes
2
25%
No
3
38%
I don't know
3
38%
 
Total votes: 8

Hebden
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:31 am)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: Michael Mills: The source of Mr Ezergailis' figure of over 10,000 Reich Jews killed by Lohse, Jeckeln and Lange, given in his message on this site, remains a mystery. He appears to be tacitly denying the detailed statistics given in his own book.


Did you read Ezergailis' book?


Alas no, we are finding it difficult to get hold of a copy. Mr. Browning and Mr. Breitman certainly rely on the book.

Michael Mills’ post is out of a thread from the TRF which is not accessible to me (I am banned there) and somewhat out of context and therefore not quite clear to me.


As was stated, the post of Mr. Mills emanated from the H-Holocaust list (see: http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~holoweb) Unfortunately, for a supposedly scholarly list, the general quality of discussion is not very impressive, but we are well accustomed to that phenomenon.

Let us say we were also banned from the TRF, only we don't mention the fact as often as you do. The Moderator there, a certain Mr. Wendel, cancelled our account without informing the board as he did in other cases. Probably he was too ashamed. A pity because, with all due modesty, we were the best thing on there.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:34 pm)

Hebden wrote: Says Gilbert: […]As well as Latvian Jews, the report stated, there were several thousand German Jews 'who were deported last autumn to the Ghetto of Riga and of whom no more was heard'. […]


So a fellow with the name of Lichtheim reported to London, that a Jew with the name of Ziwian told him […] which then “historian” Gilber reported in his book as facts. Some people may describe this as hearsay. It proves nothing.

Isn’t it strange that the witness, as most of them, is Jewish? If these alleged mass murders of Jews in those trains really happened there must be many other witnesses, one would think.

Another question here is the existence of any Jewish ghettos in Latvia.
In the Roschmann thread I posted:
My question is: Was there a Jewish ghetto in Riga to begin with? I read that it was dissolved after the 1905 revolution in Latvia, as were all these ghettos in the Baltic states at that time. Jews could very well have lived distributed all over the town and country and not centralized in ghettos.
http://www.vho.org/D/Staatsbriefe/Strauss6_1.html (German)


This was confirmed by a letter to the Editor about this article by Christina Klein from Canada:
GHETTOS in Lettland. Es gab keine, nur im Osten Kurlands einige stark verjudete Städte; in den übrigen Städten vielfach viele Juden, die sich oft an einzelnen Strassen konzentrierten.


Translation:
GHETTOS in Latvia: There were none, only in the east of Kurland some heavily Jewish townships; in the other towns often many Jews, who frequently concentrated in individual streets.

If there were no ghettos in that country, how can anyone flee from a ghetto, how can anybody be shipped to a ghetto and how can a non-existing ghetto be dissolved?

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Postby Webmaster » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:31 pm)

To all,

I have deleted all votes and added one more option (I don't know) to Hebden's poll. Please vote again!

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Hebden
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:15 pm)

Sailor wrote:
If there were no ghettos in that country, how can anyone flee from a ghetto, how can anybody be shipped to a ghetto and how can a non-existing ghetto be dissolved?


We don't know, but maybe the Germans established the ghetto?! Radical concept, we know. A bit of barbed wire here, a few street signs there, and Bob's your uncle.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:38 pm)

Hebden posts a quote from Gilbert about an alleged Riga ghetto
Says Gilbert: […]As well as Latvian Jews, the report stated, there were several thousand German Jews 'who were deported last autumn to the Ghetto of Riga and of whom no more was heard'. […]


Now Hebden says he doesn't even know if there WAS a Riga ghetto. Not encouraging for Believers in the 'holocau$t' as alleged.

Also see the thread here on liar Martin Gilbert.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jan 18, 2003 7:34 pm)

Hebden wrote: Let us say we were also banned from the TRF, only we don't mention the fact as often as you do. The Moderator there, a certain Mr. Wendel, cancelled our account without informing the board as he did in other cases. Probably he was too ashamed. A pity because, with all due modesty, we were the best thing on there.

Well …
“We” seem to have a healthy high opinion of “Ourselves” though.

This is my take from this thread up to now:

Hebden seems to believe, that from five railroad transports, each with 1000 Jews, which were destined to Riga in Latvia, the Jews were close to their destination taken off the trains and massacred by the SS.
His belief is apparently founded on texts which he quoted in his various posts from publications by "historians": Breitman, Irving, Gerlach, Browning, Ezergailis and Gilbert.

Breitman He based his book on “new” findings from decoded radio messages which covered the time from June 1941 until Sept. 13. Since the alleged murders occurred end of November 1940 he proved nothing.

Irving Shows documentary evidence that is suggestive but never explicit. No proof.

Gerlach The quoted text makes a lot of unsubstantiated claims, except no proof. Probably based on Irving’s stuff. Ergo: Forget about him.

Browning His source is probably also based on Irving’s stuff. He quotes: "The Jews resettled into the territory of the Ostland are to be dealt with only according to the guidelines given by me and the Reich Security Main Office acting in my behalf. I will punish unilateral acts and violations." Apparently this means something else to Browning and Hebden than what it says. Bullshit!

Ezergailis The quoted text does not clarify the sources. Zero

Gilbert This man’s story is based on hearsay and proves nothing.

And that is it?

Hebden’s quotations made by those various historians do not convince me.

And where I live in California an accused is innocent until proven guilty.
(If I remember correctly this is in Germany the other way around: The accused is guilty until he can prove his innocence).

Therefore I cast my vote as NO.

Right now.
:D

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:50 am)

I voted "I don't know." I am willing to be convinced, however, and I would not say that such things cannot be known. Thanks for correcting the poll to add another option.
:)

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Jan 19, 2003 5:31 am)

Hebden:

This is your last warning, and there have been many.

Your posts are often off topic, you dodge specific questions, and you have now started to harass posters --- hence the reason for deletion of your last post here.

I'm tired of your obvious disruptions of the Forum. Perhaps alt.revisionism or the Third Reich Forum is a more suitable environment for your posts. There will be no further warnings.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:29 am)

To me, to say nonchalantly with a sleight of hands, that these people were all massacred without any solid proof is simply not enough. I need more information.

End of November, it was winter, and believe you me, it can be quite cold in that area, 30C below zero, it becomes difficult to breath. Was the ground covered with snow, ice? Or was the sun shining? Raining? Was it difficult to dig those mass graves?

Any other witnesses like for example the train personnel, the lokomotive drivers, the security police on the train?

Train traffic to and from Riga had to be halted in order to avoid collision, and who knows, thousands of witnesses to the alleged mass murder crime. Any witnesses or surviving documentations about this?

Were the the trains “Personenzüge 3. Klasse” (trains for persons, 3rd class), we all used them many times then. Each wagon, if remember correctly, had 6 or 8 doors on each side and two toilets, one at each wagon end. Or were they cattle cars, or freight cars?

The trains allegedly stopped outside a train station, with no loading platforms. The wagon floor is about 1.5 m (5 ft) above the tracks, the railroad track bed itself is usually raised above the general area, depending on the terrain, maybe at least 1.0 m (3 ft). And the tracks on ties are placed on a bed of crushed rock to prevent damage during rainfall. What all this indicates is, that it is not all that easy to get off the wagon, families with women and children, especially for older folks. Any information about this? How long did it take to disembark?

What with the luggage, was this left behind in the train? Or did they take it with them to the place of execution?

Even in “the middle of nowhere” there are people around. Where there any security measurements taken? Guards posted? Witnesses from the area around?

And how far did these 1000 people have to go the place of the massacre? How long would that take? I mean that they probably did no march like a troop of marines like Gomer Pile. And they had a long trip behind them. They were tired.

What if a little kid suddenly shouts: “Mutti, ich muß mal!” (Mom, I have to go potti!). There are 1000 people involved here, a very normal occurrence.

Now at the massacre site, did they all line up in one long line? Assuming 0.5 m width per person, that would give us a total length of 500 m, approximately 5 city blocks. Not to sneeze at. Or were they lined up in two rows, or three, or just one big disorganized crowd?

And how were they executed? Not with machine pistols? These at that time were quite inaccurate and used mostly by soldiers in “Nahkampf” (hand-to-hand combat) situations during trench warfare, where the other guys were about one or two meters away. Or by the Einsatzgruppen during partisan searches in tight quarters like housings. What were the weapons used? Rifle? Machine guns?

What happened to the bodies of those 5000 Jews from the trains? Were they ever discovered?

Any comments from Breitman, Irving, Gerlach, Browning, Ezergailis, Gilbert on these?

And please, no arguments like: »The fact that there are no proofs prove that these proofs were removed without leaving a trace «. This is pseudo-scientific nonsense concocted by fellows like Arno Mayer and Michael Shermer.


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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Jan 19, 2003 2:19 pm)

What Sailor is doing in effect is what any lawyer would do in court, ask the tough questions. We have an alleged crime, but the 'holocaust' Industry has avoided standards of jurisprudence and crime investigation procedures. The Industry has managed to get away with accusations treated as fact; they have avoided conducting rational, logical, scientific, methodical investigations of alleged crimes of mass murder.

Anyone examining this so called 'holocau$t' will see this lack of evidence and legal procedures throughout, hence one of the reasons for Revisionism, hence one of the main reasons that the judeo-supremacists demand laws to prevent scrutiny of the fraud. Is does not stand up to examination.

In an honest court of law that is subject to all norms of jurisprudence this alleged Riga case would not stand a chance.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:29 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: Let us say we were also banned from the TRF, only we don't mention the fact as often as you do. The Moderator there, a certain Mr. Wendel, cancelled our account without informing the board as he did in other cases. Probably he was too ashamed. A pity because, with all due modesty, we were the best thing on there.

Well …
“We” seem to have a healthy high opinion of “Ourselves” though.

This is my take from this thread up to now:

Hebden seems to believe, that from five railroad transports, each with 1000 Jews, which were destined to Riga in Latvia, the Jews were close to their destination taken off the trains and massacred by the SS.
His belief is apparently founded on texts which he quoted in his various posts from publications by "historians": Breitman, Irving, Gerlach, Browning, Ezergailis and Gilbert.[


We bid you to read the texts more closely for greater comprehension. Evidently you have failed to grasp the train of events.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:49 pm)

We happened upon another account of the massacres in Riga, this time in the official Extraordinary State Commission report on "crimes committed by the German-Fascist invaders in the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic." It appeared in the English-language Soviet War News on 17-18 April 1945.

In October 1941 a Ghetto was set up in Riga into which the Hitlerites drove 35,000 Jews. It was encircled by two rows of barbed-wire fence, and no-one was allowed to enter it. Prisoners were let out from the Ghetto into the city only in workers' columns under police escort. The Ghetto was terribly crowded, with the result that epidemics and tremendous mortality occurred. [...]

In November 1941 the Germans picked out 4,500 able-bodied men and 300 women from the Ghetto, and shot the rest on November 30 and December 8, 1941. The witness Dolgitser thus described the shooting of the Jews from the Ghetto:

"People with little children, old men and women poured out into the street, where they were lined up. Some were dispatched in buses - but most were driven on foot. In endless columns Jews plodded along the streets. The dispatch lasted from 5.p.m. on Saturday, all night long, and ended on Sunday evening. The streets were covered with ice. People who fell were shot on the spot. The streets of the Ghetto ran red with blood. Children and mothers were shot mercilessly. People travelled their last road, the road to death. ... The German beasts snatched small children from their mothers' hands, seized them by the feet and killed them by smashing them against poles and fences..."

The Jews were shot in Rumbul Forest, within 12 kilometres of Riga. F. Fride, who escaped death by accident, stated the following about the shooting of the Jews in Rumbul Forest:

"I was driven to a pit on December 1, 1941. Before dawn we were forced to strip to our underwear. Those who attempted resist were mercilessly beaten with rubber clubs. We had to put down our clothing separately from our footwear. Before reaching the pit I dropped down intentionally. The guard thought I had been killed; people who were to be shot, passing by, piled their footwear on me. All day long till nightfall I had to listen to the heartrending screams and cries of the people who were being shot. I lay there until night and then, unnoticed by the guard, I crawled up to the clothing, dressed and escaped to the forest under cover of darkness...."


In giving the above, we do not know if we are helping or harming our case, but we feel obliged to consider all sources without prejudice. The co-presence of the twin dates of November 30 and December 8 together with the locale of the Rumbuli Forest indicates this as being the original source for the received version of the liquidation of the Riga ghetto. The other element, the transport of Reich Jews, can be traced to one of the Einsatzgruppen reports, apparently OSR 151 (ND NO-3259). We wonder if it's possible that the authors of the Soviet report were already aware of the contents of the OSR reports.

Mr. Gerald Reitlinger's account of events in his 1953 book The Final Solution is worth reproducing:

At Riga the pace was slower. The two ghettoes were not created till the middle of October because, as Stahlecker reported to Heydrich, the normal Lithuanian residents of the quarter made difficulties. On October 15th, moreover, Stahlecker wrote that certain authorities of the new civil administration were opposed to mass executions and that he would have to execute the Jews who were not fit for labour in small batches. 23 In the event the fate of 29,000 Riga Jews was delayed six weeks.

November 30th, 1941, found the most elaborate measures prepared in Riga. The ghettoes were cordoned, the Jewish working commandos were marched out under guard, while rows of modern blue Riga motor-buses were drawn up outside the ghetto gates. Miles out in the forest, near the railway-halt Rumbuli, the execution-pits had been dug by Russian prisoners of war. 27 Here again the Einsatzgruppe resume for January, 1942, mentions what seems to have been the standard figure for these affairs, a total of 10,600 victims. 28 A daily report, issued while the massacre was still in progress, declares that Jeckeln was engaged in a 'shooting action' and that on November 30th 4,000 Jews from the Riga ghetto and an entire transport of Jews from the Reich had been dealt with. 29 This was the notorious 'Bloody Sunday,' but the second Riga action on December 8th was almost on the same scale. One witness, while gathering firewood for the Wehrmacht, saw the preparations in the forest - two lorry loads of German police troops and a long row of machine guns. 30 A third action, also on December 8th, took place not at Rumbuli but at Bikernek, the 'little birch wood,' which was destined to become the permanent execution place for the Riga Ghetto. This action was curtailed. At twelve o'clock, when a column of the condemned was marching out of the ghetto, the police NCO pulled out his watch and remarked: 'You are in luck. It is one minute after time; the action is over.' 31

At the very least 24,000 people had been murdered in Riga. Stahlecker's estimate is actually 27,800. 32 Of the Riga Jewish community there remained only 4,500 men and 300 women, but within a week of the last action a second transport of Reich Jews, the first of a long series, arrived in Riga to occupy the corpse-strewn rooms of the 'little ghetto.'

Because of the Reich transports and also the presence of Luftwaffe troops near the execution ground, the Riga action created a great deal of gossip. It also made an impression on Heydrich, who invited its organiser, Major Lange of the Security Police, to attend the Gross-Wannsee conference. It is significant that Heydrich explained that the postponement of this conference from December 8th to January 20th was 'due to events in which some of the invited gentlemen were concerned': significant, too, that on December 14th Rosenberg told Hitler that 'in view of developments in the East' he would omit the word Ausrottung, extermination, from his forthcoming speech. 33


For the benefit of Mr. Sailor we include the footnotes:

23 IMT, Document L-180.

27 Kaufmann, 97.

28 Case IX, NO 3405. (Monthly Einsatzgruppen Report No. 9)

29 Case IX, NO 3259.

30 Kaufmann, 108.

31 Ibid. 115

32 IMT, PS 2273. (Stahlecker to Heydrich.)

33 PS 1517 and IMT XI, 63 (Evidence, Rosenberg).


We append the relevant extract from OSR 151:

In the meantime, the Higher SS Police in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckeln started a [mass] shooting action on Sunday, November 30, 1941. He removed about 4,000 Jews from the Riga ghetto and from an evacuation transport of Jews from Germany. The action was originally intended to be carried out with the forces of the Higher SS and Police Chief; however, after a few hours, 20 men of Ek 2 who were sent there for security purposes were also employed in the shooting.


http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr151.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:05 pm)

from the:
Extraordinary State Commission report on "crimes committed by the German-Fascist invaders in the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic


You must be joking, and this Communist propaganda is considered evidence? Hardly.
Once again, all these alleged murders, with alleged "witnesses', in centralized, easily found locations, but no physical evidence, no verifibility....nothing. It's a lie or otherwise we would see the evidence.

Then we're back to alleged Einsatzgruppen Reports where no originals have been reproduced, only curious "translations", and again, no physical evidence to verify the assertions of huge number of people allegedly shot. It's simply laughable and and there is no evidence to sustain it.

Same old, same old.

I expect a picture of Uncle Joe Stalin, Ehrenburg, Beria, and the rest of the Bolshevik mob with a caption that hails them as great men next. :lol:

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:32 pm)

Hebden wrote: We bid you to read the texts more closely for greater comprehension. Evidently you have failed to grasp the train of events.


I must have.

OK. Let’s take one at a time.
Breitman. The quoted text is on pages 82-83 of his book “Official Secrets” Chapter 5. Transition and Transports. Breitman gives the following sources for his information:
Fleming’s “Hitler and the Final Solution”;
Ezergailis “Holocaust in Latvia”;
German Police Decodes;
Gesamtaufstellung der im Bereich des Einsatzkommandos 3 bis zum 1. Dezember 1941 durchgeführten Exekutionen , Center-Moscow.

Breitman likes to depend for his story on other historians, in this case Fleming and Ezergailis. We already discussed both before.

Breitman refers to a German police decode. I don’t know which decodes he is referring to. Does Hebden? What does it say?

Breitman refers to “Gesamtaufstellung […]”. I don’t know what this is. Does Hebden?

Sorry, but I do not take Breitman’s word just like that. We are talking of a huge mass murder, I need more than some whishy-washy references in order to be convinced.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:51 pm)

Hebden wrote: We bid you to read the texts more closely for greater comprehension. Evidently you have failed to grasp the train of events.


Next one.

IrvingThe quoted story by Irving is spun around a couple of decoded radio messages which Irving interpretated his way. Fine. We live in a democracy, everyone can have his opinion. I repeat again: I read many times through those messages as posted by Irving at his site. I simply cannot see the proof for the murders of thousands of Jews arriving in trains.
Could Hebden specifically indicate which message it is that convinced him?


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