Baby Smashing in the Ghettos

[Callahan]

When viewing witness testimony about 'gas chambers' and many of the other "shock and awe" stories of life within the concentration camps, there is a particular pattern often observed in eyewitness testimony. In addition to a lack of corroboration with physical evidence which should have been a staple in any proper investigation of these matters, the testimony (in my experience) has ranged from being laughable and easily dismissed as conjecture, to being--at best--somewhat conceivable and at least partially consistent with known facts.

I have probably listened to or read thousands of bits of testimony from claimed eyewitnesses over the last near-decade. I have heard about human soap, skin lampshades, human sausage, masturbation death machines, electrocution and steam chambers, etc, etc, etc...

In general, the testimony I have heard has been inconsistent and has appeared very disingenuous. Unlike as with other clearly proven atrocities, where the victims more often appear to be severely shaken and barely able to speak of their trauma, "Holocaust survivor" testimony seems often (but not always) to fit within a range from overly casual to obnoxiously eccentric. And within that spectrum, there is no clear line between where the obvious lies end and the "Holocaust" narrative begins.

I have felt that the disingenuity of testimony I have come across (coupled with the massive chemical/forensic evidence against the alleged 'gas chambers') plays a big part in my willingness to acknowledge that the Germans were ever cruel on anything but an exceptional, isolated basis. That said, some recent research has me somewhat troubled and I wanted to seek feedback from the rest of you all here.

Please, take some time to view some/all of the testimony below at the times I have included for each:


21:41 - David Shear - Ostrow Lubelski ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piuNOYT2cig

13:00 - Eddie Ilan - Warsaw ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUj6-3rmar0

14:31 - Leah Herman - Oradia ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZYgv3GuGQ8

8:03 - Nathan Nothman - Cracow ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcbxTmx_3zA

23:25 - Sonia Goldshore - Miedzyrzec ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtEhDZAtShU

4:43 - Saya Feinman - Zimna Woda (Lwow ghetto area)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYzj8dCPbVY

2:40 - Markus Ender - Tarnow ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTSpN8u2pg

3:30 - Reuben Drehspul - Kaunas ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIG-Ynf0_LI

27:10 - Kuba Beck - Cracow ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtGrRE5ARuo

18:40 - Israel Weinberg - Lodz ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnWEDEbMsdo

16:40 - Kristine Keren - Lwow ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBGeAWoF2Qg

20:30 - Celina Biniaz - Cracow ghetto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4X6vY3N_h8


In addition to those listed above, there are many others which are similar; a total of about 1,500 on the USC Shoah/VHA archive under indexing term, "child killings". In addition claims of those being smashed, there are many similar claims involving shootings, arms/limbs torn off, etc.

In large part, I want to be able to say "this did not happen" at all but I do not think I can honestly say that I believe all of these people are lying. I think at least many, perhaps, are indeed telling the truth. The stories are similar enough but not identical, each reasonably consistent within itself, not coupled with other obvious or probable lies, and the emotion and body language seems genuine in a lot of cases.

I am left with more questions than answers... Admittedly, the occurrences in the ghettos are a new frontier for me, in terms of research.

Some of the questions I am left with include:

- How many of these testimonials are actually truthful, versus how many could have been parrotted or personalized based on rumor (as we have seen frequently with 'gassing' claims and the like)?
- Could these homicidal actions have been due to rogue SS unit(s)?

Which SS units were responsible for liquidating the ghettos?
Was it the same unit(s) that operated in many/all of the locations listed above?

- If it is problem related to rogue unit(s) of German soldiers, what was the scale of their actions? How many could have been killed in this way? How was the SS leadership able to disregard or otherwise fail to address this problem?

Of course, we are faced with the same problem pertaining to evidence when it comes to the claims made by these witnesses as we are with the rest of the Holocaust storyline... I have not heard of any mass graves filled with children and infants killed by severe skull fractures, anywhere in Poland. On the other hand, to be entirely fair, I find very few Jewish Holocaust child survivors born after 1932 on the USC Shoah/VHA (i.e. those who would have been between 0-12 years old during the war), and I am not sure where else to look for statistical data in this particular regard.

I am definitely still a relative newbie at this stuff but I wasn't able to find any detailed discussion about "baby smashing" nor much about the ghettos on this forum nor anywhere else, so hoping some light can be shed via some collaboration and discussion here.

[Hektor]

There were claims being made that "SS-Men tore apart children" in camps/ghettos "with their bare hands". This is a physical impossibility.

I suspect witnesses copying each others claims.

[Callahan]

There were claims being made that "SS-Men tore apart children" in camps/ghettos "with their bare hands". This is a physical impossibility.

I suspect witnesses copying each others claims.

I have heard before that this is an impossibility but I am not convinced... at least when it comes to infants. I saw one of these testimonies which said this was done to a 3-4 year old child, which I think would lean much closer into the realm of the impossible. But I think if I was tasked with ripping the limbs off of a baby, I could pretty well pull it off (no pun intended, honestly).

Holo-testimony is riddled with recycled claims but I think there are at least some that could have potentially true origins. I.e. if there was at some point any rogue SS unit slaughtering children on a limited basis, I expect this claim would be repeated, restyled, etc again and again.

[Hektor]

There were claims being made that "SS-Men tore apart children" in camps/ghettos "with their bare hands". This is a physical impossibility.

I suspect witnesses copying each others claims.

I have heard before that this is an impossibility but I am not convinced... at least when it comes to infants. I saw one of these testimonies which said this was done to a 3-4 year old child, which I think would lean much closer into the realm of the impossible. But I think if I was tasked with ripping the limbs off of a baby, I could pretty well pull it off (no pun intended, honestly).

Holo-testimony is riddled with recycled claims but I think there are at least some that could have potentially true origins. I.e. if there was at some point any rogue SS unit slaughtering children on a limited basis, I expect this claim would be repeated, restyled, etc again and again.

Ripping them apart with bare hands I consider an impossibility and the theatrical effect is also quite clear. What's not impossible is severely injuring an infant or baby by tearing their limps in opposite directions.

Rogue SS units may have existed, but as for all the claims, what's the proof for this?

[Callahan]

Ripping them apart with bare hands I consider an impossibility and the theatrical effect is also quite clear. What's not impossible is severely injuring an infant or baby by tearing their limps in opposite directions.

Rogue SS units may have existed, but as for all the claims, what's the proof for this?

It is dramatic/theatrical/etc. and indeed sounds ridiculous. I feel like I'm in a position of devil's advocate when I say that it at least seems physically possible, for small infants.

I am not sure about rogue SS units in terms if it would have been possible for any of them to have been 'rogue'. Where can I find information about who specifically was assigned to the ghetto liquidations? How was their oversight structured (i.e. were any systems in-place to keep them accountable)?

The eyewitness testimony surrounding this entire period has proven to be defamatory, dishonest, etc, so I am open to the possibility that a strong majority of these claims about baby/child killings in the ghettos are invented or recycled but on account of their prevalence and what I think appears to be a relatively higher degree of apparent genuinity among witnesses in some of these bits (reasons mentioned previously), I think it best to at least look into any possibility that events similar to those described may have occurred to some extent.

I am also a bit troubled by the low relative/apparent number of child "survivors" on the VHA born between '33-'44. This could simply be due to the VHA strategically omitting this age group, but I can't prove this with any certainty. It would be helpful to hear some testimony from former small children who were in the ghettos and came across German soldiers without being smashed against a wall or shot. I would not expect those younger than maybe 7 years old at the time to have any reliable memory, however.

[forasanerworld]

Some years ago the IHR profiled the book "Onward Christian Soldiers" by Donald Day, Day tells of witnessing the smashing of children (Latvians I think) against lorries by the Cheka so the tale has a long history; it's worth noting that Kaunas in Lithunia was one of the few penal gas chambers in the world outside the US and may well have a been a rich source of tales thereof.

[Callahan]

Okay, so the plot may thicken a bit? I have been thinking about this topic a fair bit the last couple days, despite having little time to do some deep digging, research-wise. I admit, my emotions were a bit stirred after seeing those videos in my OP... yet another reminder of the power and resonance of a lifetime of emotionally manipulative propaganda. But after a few deep breaths and some time to think rationally, I feel I have made some progress in the right direction.

In my previous post here, I expressed my perception (or rather, assumption) that there are a proportionally low number of Jewish child survivors of WW2. After some quick research, this was clearly a rather baseless assumption. Rudolf estimates the age-ranges and number of child survivors, here, supported with a major contribution from an Israel-based organization:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/7.pdf#page= ... 0,-181,636

What this means for the USC Shoah/VHA archive is that the very youngest Holocaust 'survivors' are (I presume) disproportionately excluded, perhaps because many of them do not remember sufficient detail to report anything of value. Any thoughts on this?


One more thing. I brought up the question of a 'rogue SS unit' having been potentially responsible for some incidents where children/babies were indeed killed, perhaps in very brutal ways as described. After some quick research into the management of the ghettos and which units were responsible for the liquidations thereof, I learned about a unit known as the "Trawniki men", which were a band of former Soviet POWs (mostly Ukrainians, I believe, but numerous other regional ethnicities as well) who became trained to work with the SS, albeit in a somewhat subordinate capacity (they had similar ranks but different insignia, different titles, etc.; generally remained an underclass within the SS).

It is said that when these men were later stationed at the Aktion Reinhard camps (~100 at each camp), that it was them that acted as both guards and gas chamber operators...

Some things of note, pertaining to how/why these groups may have been more likely to commit horrendous acts against Jewish ghetto populations:

The Russian historian Sergei Kudryashov, who made a study of the Trawniki men serving at death camps claimed that there was little sign of any attraction to National Socialism among them.[6] Most of the guards volunteered in order to leave the POW camps and/or because of self-interest. This statement however, is contradicted by information provided by the Holocaust historian Christopher R. Browning (Ordinary Men) who wrote that Hiwis "were screened on the basis of their anti-Communist and hence almost invariably anti-Semitic sentiments."[9]

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Trawniki_men

So, what we have is a unit of non-German volunteers with little to no interest in National Socialism, and driven by self-interest, but for whom meet at least a minimum criteria for antisemitism...

If you note the videos in my OP, a few do mention that it was Ukrainian SS they allegedly encountered.

What is interesting is how the story is, of course, presented as though these Soviet POWs were actually "examples of how ordinary people could become willing killers"... only once they were trained by the Germans:

Despite the generally apathetic views of the Trawniki guards, the vast majority faithfully carried out the SS expectations in the mistreatment of Jews.[6] Most Trawniki men executed Jews already as part of their job training.

Is the evidence of the first claim here sufficient to rule out alternatives? Were the Trawniki men actually assigned by the Germans to commit horrific torture and slaughter of child innocents? Or, were they simply able to get away with these horrible acts (e.g. baby-smashing sprees) whenever the Germans weren't around--acts which later inspired campaigns and instances of exaggeration, lies and further developed propaganda? What evidence is there that they "executed [innocent] Jews already as part of their job training"?

If they did contribute to the production of mass graves in any way, were these filled with innocents? Or, limited to partisans, victims of disease and starvation, etc.?

The story claims that these men were used to fill massive graves with Jews [innocent children, elderly, sick] in all of the ghettos, so that the Germans would not have to do it themselves. It goes on that they were then sent to the Aktion Reinhard camps, being great candidates as they were already "hardened" by the work done in the ghettos.

[Hannover]

Callahan:

The story claims that these men were used to fill massive graves with Jews [innocent children, elderly, sick] in all of the ghettos, so that the Germans would not have to do it themselves. It goes on that they were then sent to the Aktion Reinhard camps, being great candidates as they were already "hardened" by the work done in the ghettos.

A load of crap propaganda.
Why don't we see the alleged "massive graves"?
There simply is no proof for such claims.

Callahan, all your questions are answered at this forum. You need to take some time to look for them.

As for children "survivors:
- Healthy Children at Auschwitz 'liberation':




See both Jew and Gentile children, see actual Hanukah ceremonies in the "death camps".
'What happened to children in the German concentration camps':



- Hannover

[Callahan]

Callahan, all your questions are answered at this forum. You need to take some time to look for them.

That's always been the case, I saw nothing about "Trawniki men", "baby smashing", nor much at all even about the ghettos in general, certainly not relative to the establishment's focus and quantity pertaining to these locations. And it is definitely helpful if we can better explain the eyewitness testimony. I don't think it suffices to say they all are lying, at least not in this case. So I am wondering if there might be another explanation.

[borjastick]

How about the 3000 babies born in Auschwitz?

[Lamprecht]

I have felt that the disingenuity of testimony I have come across (coupled with the massive chemical/forensic evidence against the alleged 'gas chambers') plays a big part in my willingness to acknowledge that the Germans were ever cruel on anything but an exceptional, isolated basis.

Yes, I think individual atrocities happened on all sides. The situation, being what it was (a war) means that such things will happen. Individuals will stand next to their friends, their brothers and cousins and watch them get their leg blown off in a landmine, or get shot in the chest and bleed out. In response to this, people who go through these horrifying experiences often commit atrocities, knowing full well they might not even live to see tomorrow. This is "Human behavior" not exceptional to Germans at all, in fact other groups in the war - such as Soviet troops or North Africans (see "Marocchinate") were more inclined to such savagery.

This is not a "Holocaust" but people will group any bad thing a German [supposedly] did as part of the "Holocaust" to lend the story credibility. A perfect example is the T4 Euthanasia program: It's grouped in with the "Holocaust" because it actually happened and is in some ways morally objectionable (but those who are OK with abortion of healthy fetuses perhaps are hypocrites to claim such). I am sure a Jew baby was smashed in a ghetto during WWII somewhere. I couldn't tell you where or when and am not all that interested in making a list of such happenings. There were also mass rapes of German civilians and, sure, some babies probably being smashed. None of this is a "Holocaust" as we have been told. Baby killing is also a very common atrocity lie.

I suggest the post I made in this thread to give a general idea of the goings-on in a particular Polish region:

Martyrs of Nowogródek
viewtopic.php?t=13113

We are told the "Holocaust" was a systematic extermination of millions of Jews by rounding them by train and sending them to "extermination camps" to be gassed by the thousands a day, and then dumped into enormous pits. This can not be shown to be true. It can't even be called an exaggeration, but rather an outright lie. There's also the "Holocaust by bullets" which has an element of truth to it (read more in the thread above) in that many people were shot in the East, including "innocent" civilians, but this was in response to the partisan guerilla warfare tactics of terrorist groups operating in the region. The reprisals against civilians were legal at the time, and the partisan terrorist attacks were illegal. The moral/tactical agreeableness is another question altogether.

I did not watch your testimonies since right now I don't have time, but I probably will look at some of them later. As I explained here and in the post I linked to, these [real, exaggerated, or fake] atrocities are presented in a context in which everything was peaceful and then the Germans came along and committed unprovoked, barbarous, wanton mass murder of the most egregious sort. If the Germans had won the war, we would probably be hearing the same sorts of testimonies but from the other side (although I think not as much, simply because Jews go so far out of their way to give all of this "Holocaust" testimony).

It is right to be skeptical of claims of individuals Germans committing atrocities because we have been lied to about the extermination camps, but humans of every ethnicity are capable of committing these sorts of atrocities in comparable situations.
So, if the "Holocaust" is people dying of starvation/disease in internment camps, combined with mass executions in reprisal actions in a war zone, occasional medical experiments of criminals or mentally/physically defective people, and various individual atrocities of baby-smashing or woman-raping, then so be it. But then this Jewish "Holocaust" is truly no different from what happened to many others before, during, and since the war. There would then be thousands upon thousands of "Holocausts" by these standards.

[Hannover]

Callahan, from your OP:

In addition to those listed above, there are many others which are similar; a total of about 1,500 on the USC Shoah/VHA archive under indexing term, "child killings". In addition claims of those being smashed, there are many similar claims involving shootings, arms/limbs torn off, etc.

In large part, I want to be able to say "this did not happen" at all but I do not think I can honestly say that I believe all of these people are lying. I think at least many, perhaps, are indeed telling the truth. The stories are similar enough but not identical, each reasonably consistent within itself, not coupled with other obvious or probable lies, and the emotion and body language seems genuine in a lot of cases.

Please, tell us which ones you think are telling the truth and tell us what they say that you think is truthful.

While your at it, please give us the dates of these "testimonies" and what courts they testified in.

BTW, I can give you "testimonies", etc. to support witchcraft.
i.e.:
Witchcraft Documents, Testimony, Eyewitnesses: http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/home.html

Thanks, Hannover

[Callahan]

Callahan, from your OP:

In addition to those listed above, there are many others which are similar; a total of about 1,500 on the USC Shoah/VHA archive under indexing term, "child killings". In addition claims of those being smashed, there are many similar claims involving shootings, arms/limbs torn off, etc.

In large part, I want to be able to say "this did not happen" at all but I do not think I can honestly say that I believe all of these people are lying. I think at least many, perhaps, are indeed telling the truth. The stories are similar enough but not identical, each reasonably consistent within itself, not coupled with other obvious or probable lies, and the emotion and body language seems genuine in a lot of cases.

Please, tell us which ones you think are telling the truth and tell us what they say that you think is truthful.

While your at it, please give us the dates of these "testimonies" and what courts they testified in.

BTW, I can give you "testimonies", etc. to support witchcraft.
i.e.:
Witchcraft Documents, Testimony, Eyewitnesses: http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/home.html

Thanks, Hannover

I freely admit that I can't prove any of these (nor am I now strongly inclined to believe any of them) but I'm open to leaving the investigation open and considering all avenues. Some of the testimony (e.g. Leah Herman, who IMO exhibits real signs of trauma while delivering her testimony) is more convincing than others.

On the other hand, we would agree there is a very clear pattern of mass deception among these eyewitnesses of the "Holocaust". I suppose I am just asking the question of, if these events occurred in limited instances (perhaps a dozen or so, more or less), what else might explain that other than lying? Or is the only possibility that they are lying?

I am much less inclined to believe testimony of someone like Nathan Nothman, given the disparity between what is claimed and what has been proven. I'd be very surprised to find mass graves filled with dead infants. But I'd be much less surprised to find an occasional grave with a baby or two in it, which could support some of the claims made.

[Atigun]

Here's a simple test for proving/disproving the claims of limbs being torn from infants/children. Go to the grocery store and buy a chicken. Now see if you can tear a wing or a leg from it or tear it in two using only the strength in your arms and hands. Let us know how that turns out for you.

[Callahan]

Here's a simple test for proving/disproving the claims of limbs being torn from infants/children. Go to the grocery store and buy a chicken. Now see if you can tear a wing or a leg from it or tear it in two using only the strength in your arms and hands. Let us know how that turns out for you.

That's a good point to further illustrate the improbability. I'm very skeptical any babies were ever "ripped apart", however the bones of an infant haven't even hardened yet. So I'm guessing the joints, other tissues, etc would also be fragile. And yet I did come across a woman saying this was done to a 3yo child... which I think it's safe to conclude is stupid and impossible. And if she's lying (and there's no evidence), who's to say the others aren't, too.