David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

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Sannhet
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David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Sannhet » 5 days 12 hours ago (Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:28 pm)

From David Irving's website:

2021 tour: all four grim “Reinhardt” sites and three massive bunker-ruin sites, including Hitler’s HQ, the Wolf’s Lair

No further details yet available.
_________________________

Irving has hosted several of these tours before, one every few years, starting with his own first-time visits in 2007.

In March 2007, he recorded this in his public journal, A Radical's Diary:

I don't like Poland, as the following entries will betray. This is my first visit to the country [...]

As for the rest of the entries we have from David Irving's first visit to these sites in 2007, he was long trying to take a publicly neutral line by this time (2007); if you read them, you 'll see plenty of subtle clues that he did not believe the claims and treated them at great distance; he tactically refrains from saying explicitly that he disbelieves and is a subtle-enough writer to drop clues. He has been banned from countries too often and I presume he does not want to get banned from Poland. All the same, he linked at the bottom of that same 2007 entry to the One Third of the Holocaust video series.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Lamprecht » 4 days 16 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:46 am)

Is there any Polish law that protects him from being arrested like he was in Austria? I mean he is still a "Holocaust denier" of sorts, is he not? Doesn't he still dispute many of the claims about Auschwitz?
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby borjastick » 4 days 13 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:03 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Is there any Polish law that protects him from being arrested like he was in Austria? I mean he is still a "Holocaust denier" of sorts, is he not? Doesn't he still dispute many of the claims about Auschwitz?


Well I don't know about any laws but the Poles see the holocaust as not their issue and with no responsibility on their part. They have been involved in sniping with israel over recent years and feel they are victims far more than some would have us believe that they (Poles) were complicit in the holocaust. My guess is David I knows he won't be arrested or he wouldn't go there.
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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 4 days 10 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:27 pm)

Hi Sannhet,

That's interesting to go way back in "Radical's Diary" and look at the 2007 posts. I always thought he didn't believe in the Reinhard camps but had to pretend he did, and thus threw in "Easter Eggs" so to speak and weak evidence.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Hannover » 4 days 7 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:33 pm)

Perhaps Irving will magically show those who are being mislead about the AR sites the ca. 2,000,000 human remains that the "Holocau$t Industry" claims exist at those sites in specific, known locations.

And it certainly can now be said that Irving is part of that "Holocau&t Industry".
He's making money from the fraud / scam.

Disgusting.

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 4 days 7 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:38 pm)

David is a holocaust promoter and the media's example of a holocaust skeptic. He ultimately is no different than Deborah Lipstadt or Raul Hilberg. He should be challenged to debate learned revisionists on here. Has Irving been challenged to come here, and defend his holocaust belief?
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Hannover » 4 days 7 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:46 pm)

JLAD Prove Me Wrong wrote:Has Irving been challenged to come here, and defend his holocaust belief?

Good idea, please do so.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Sannhet » 4 days 5 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:37 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Hi Sannhet,

That's interesting to go way back in "Radical's Diary" and look at the 2007 posts. I always thought he didn't believe in the Reinhard camps but had to pretend he did, and thus threw in "Easter Eggs" so to speak and weak evidence.


Yes. It's a useful exercise to apply to anyone who we have reason to believe may be saying things under duress. Look carefully at what they say, what they do not say, how they say what they say, and any other signs something is off. Human communication is highly complex and many will adopt a strategy of putting in clues when they are in an impossible situation. Both intentionally and unintentionally.

An analogy: A hostage is paraded before a camera and reads the script his captors tell him to read, but tries to communicate what he really wants to say through a series of blinks, the intended audience being those who might understand what the blinks mean. I am convinced Irving has been using this strategy for years now. I think it's clear especially in some of those 2007 entries.

I suspect Irving would "tip his hand" even more to those who come on the tour, to whom he can speak in person. I cannot imagine Irving morphing into a "Holocaust Pimp" on his Poland tour.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Hannover » 4 days 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:34 pm)

Sannhet:
I suspect Irving would "tip his hand" even more to those who come on the tour, to whom he can speak in person. I cannot imagine Irving morphing into a "Holocaust Pimp" on his Poland tour.

I think his original back tracking game of "holocaust-lite" was part of a deal for his early release from prison. Makes sense.

But now?

After all, he IS taking money from those on his '2021 AR Tour' and in spite of the complete lack of proof for his "holocaust-lite" I have seen no evidence of him "blinking".

Hence, IMO he is now part of the "Holocau$t Industry".

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 4 days 8 minutes ago (Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:47 am)

Hannover:
I think his original back tracking game of "holocaust-lite" was part of a deal for his early release from prison. Makes sense.

I took Irving out to dinner once after he spoke in San José, California, 6 or 7 years ago. But when I thought about his talk later, one thing that stuck with me, is two guys came in late, sat or stood near the back door, they looked stern. And yes they looked like their last name could have also been 'Stern.' And they left early. Were they monitoring him?

Another thing that stuck with me, is in that talk he said that by order of magnitude, the holocaust happened. Meaning that whether it's 3.5 million or 6 million, it's in the same order of magnitude. I.e. a high number in the millions.

Did he make a deal with somebody?

I didn't mention this over dinner because it hit me later. And also I didn't want him to regret his having accepted my invitation, but I could also see how he could be a hard guy to get a long with. During dinner there was some noise in the room and his accent is really great but hard for me to follow in conversation, so I think I said "what did you say" or "I'm sorry, what?" one time too many, and he told me I should get my ears checked out by a doctor. And he was serious. I just laughed it off.

There was a guy who went on one of his tours to Europe, and that guy lived in the area and went to the talk. This man offered to stay after and help him put away the books and he was going to join us for dinner, so it would be the 3 of us. But Irving busted that guy's chops so bad, in how he was putting away the books, as a volunteer, that the local guy then begged off of dinner with us.

But at the same time, it was heroic: he didn't have anyone helping him. He's lugging his own books, with good revisionist material, good historical material, good interviews, good research, around the country, facing persecution. As an older person, looking over his shoulder all the time. Heroic and strange at the same time.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Turpitz » 3 days 20 hours ago (Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:35 am)

Irving is a scab who promotes the official polemic on almost everything, a real bad apple. Also sychophantic toward the increasingly corrupt and diseased establishment.

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby forasanerworld » 1 day 17 hours ago (Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:12 am)

borjastick wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Is there any Polish law that protects him from being arrested like he was in Austria? I mean he is still a "Holocaust denier" of sorts, is he not? Doesn't he still dispute many of the claims about Auschwitz?


Well I don't know about any laws but the Poles see the holocaust as not their issue and with no responsibility on their part. They have been involved in sniping with israel over recent years and feel they are victims far more than some would have us believe that they (Poles) were complicit in the holocaust. My guess is David I knows he won't be arrested or he wouldn't go there.


What about the long arm of the European Arrest Warrant as per Frederick Toben disgustingly apprehended airside at Heathrow in transit, was he even IN the UK?

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Sannhet » 11 hours 54 minutes ago (Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:01 pm)

borjastick wrote:My guess is David knows he won't be arrested or he wouldn't go there.


An article appeared in Reuters last year which suggested he would be denied entry (though not arrested):

Poland likely to bar Holocaust denier, foreign minister says
March 22, 2019

“Negation of the Holocaust is not allowed by Polish law," said Polish FM Jacek Czaputowicz.

WARSAW - Warsaw is likely to refuse Holocaust denier David Irving entry to Poland later this year, the foreign minister said on Friday, citing local legislation that bans denying the genocide.

Israel had urged Poland to deny Irving entry after reports that he planned to lead a tour of Nazi concentration camps in the country. The author of several books, Irving has denied that the Nazis murdered six million Jews during World War Two.

Irving confirmed to Reuters by email that he had planned to visit Poland later this year, as he has in the past.

“Negation of the Holocaust is not allowed by Polish law, therefore he will not be welcome here in Poland if he wants to come and present his opinions,” Jacek Czaputowicz told reporters at a press conference.


As far as I know, the 2019 trip went through. Irving was not neither denied entry nor arrested.

(By the way, ever the one to indulge in a little dramatic flair, Irving started his group tour of war sites in Poland on September 1, 2019, eighty years to the day after the invasion and the start of the several weeks of the Germany-Poland war, which morphed into the series of wars people came to call "World War Two.") (On the same day, September 1, two states in Germany had their local legislature elections and returned huge results for the AfD, despite a full-on attempt to limit their impact, a date coincidence not lost on German-politics observers.)

Re: That Reuters article. Regardless of the nuances of what Irving says, notice they still just refer to him as "a historian who denies the Holocaust."

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Sannhet » 11 hours 49 minutes ago (Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:06 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:I took Irving out to dinner once after he spoke in San José, California, 6 or 7 years ago.


CCS, Thank you for posting this anecdote and series of recollections on your meeting with Irving.

Did he make a deal with somebody?

If so, depending on who the "somebody" is, he would presumably be treated better than he is. This man is legitimately a top contender for the greatest historian writing on the WWII era in Europe, particularly the German side. Yet even today, whenever his name appears in the media, it is "David Irving, who has denied the Holocaust," or some variant of that. Some deal!

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Re: David Irving to host 2021 tour of Aktion Reinhardt camps

Postby Sannhet » 2 hours 33 minutes ago (Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:21 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:That's interesting to go way back in "Radical's Diary" and look at the 2007 posts. I always thought he didn't believe in the Reinhard camps but had to pretend he did, and thus threw in "Easter Eggs" so to speak and weak evidence.

I came across this again today, written by Jurgen Graff in April 2009:

David Irving’s trip to Poland

In March 2007, I got an e-mail from David Irving who informed me that he was in Poland, where he was visiting the “Aktion Reinhardt camps.” According to German wartime documents the purpose of “Aktion Reinhardt” consisted in the confiscation of Jewish property. Without a shred of documentary or material evidence, the orthodox historians claim that the real purpose of this action was the physical liquidation of the Jews of Eastern Poland and that between 1, 5 and 2 million Jews were killed with carbon monoxide from diesel engines in three camps: Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. Traditional history has it that these camps were pure extermination centers where all Jews, regardless of age and health, were gassed upon arrival without registration: only a handful of strong young Jews were temporarily spared because they were needed to keep the camps running.

In his e-mail (which I unfortunately deleted) Irving must have asked me a question about Belzec because I distinctly remember that in my reply I asked him if he had read Carlo Mattogno’s book Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History[10]. He answered that he would read it later.

In addition to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, Irving also visited Auschwitz and Majdanek. Apparently he did not visit the sixth alleged “extermination camp,” Chelmno (Kulmhof). On his website[11], he published an account of his trip to Poland which struck me by its superficiality and its vagueness. It was impossible to deduce from this account whether Irving believed that homicidal gassings had taken place at Auschwitz and Majdanek. As far as the three “Aktion Reinhardt” camps were concerned, he seemed to endorse the “extermination camp” version; on the other hand, he spoke of the “alleged gas chambers” of these camps. In other words: He avoided making clear and unequivocal statements.

http://juergen-graf.vho.org/articles/da ... camps.html

"I asked [Irving] if he had read Carlo Mattogno’s book Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History[10]. He answered that he would read it later." --- I wonder if Irving ever did read Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History? "Later" is a long time. We have had thirteen years of later now.

David Irving's 2007 Radical's Diary entries record the interaction with Graf as follows (from the March 2, 2007 entry):

BACK in Warsaw in the evening, after this 230 km drive out to Treblinka and back, we find a café with WiFi internet connection advertised; but the transmitter signal apparently does not reach the actual café. A friend who works in a bank reopens his office there for us to go online at 8:50 pm.

Jürgen G. has sent an email, urging me to skepticism. I reply: "Ich war heute in T., sehr enttäuscht darüber, wie die Stelle umgepflügt worden ist mit Schüleraufgaben, Denkmälern usw. Sogar die Bahnlinie ist aufgerissen und abmontiert worden.. . . Bin in einigen Tagen auch in A. und L. und S., um eigene Eindrücke zu sammeln." That is Auschwitz, Lublin, and Sobibór.


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