gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

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gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Moderator » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:31 pm)

I've made this post by gl0spana to a separate thread
M1

gl0spana wrote:there are 0 german documents or witnesses that describe anything happening to the millions of non-employable Jews (evacuated from ghettos in 42/43) once they are transited to the east, whether that means being put into holding camps, given farms, or transported into the soviet zone

So I'm talking about the resettlement process, NOT that the government's official position was they were being resettled (I agree with you this was the case)

How do you explain this?
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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Hannover » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:39 pm)

Yep, that sort of illogical question points to the fact that the German outbound train records have been destroyed by the 'Allies'.

see:
Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby gl0spana » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:54 pm)

not just outbound train records, more evidence than this should exist. There should be a record of camps where they were kept, or re-education programs to teach them farming, etc . . . thousands and thousands of Germans would also no doubt also be involved in this (see below)


---
For the purposes of the topic it should be clear I said 'zero' documents and don't forget 'zero witnesses' too

By zero witnesses I mean there's no record of any German directly admitting (whether in trial or even generally in writing) to working at a camp for resettled Jews, or helping resettled Jews learn how to farm etc

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Hannover » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:04 am)

The claim that they were exterminated is further refuted by the fact that the human remains of those alleged millions do not exist.

Recall that it's claimed by "The Holocaust Industry" that such remains do exist in supposedly known locations, yet they do NOT exist.

said:
there's no record of any German directly admitting (whether in trial or even generally in writing) to working at a camp for resettled Jews, or helping resettled Jews learn how to farm etc.

And why would Germans be left behind with resettled Jews? German personnel were certainly needed elsewhere; your point makes no sense.

I also see you dodged this thread:

Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps?:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13204

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:11 am)

gl0spana wrote:more evidence than this should exist

In what form should it exist? Why should it exist? I don't understand your argument at all.

If the Jews were resettled, how would anyone be able to figure out where exactly they were resettled unless:

1 - There were documents stating it.
The outbound records are virtually all missing as pointed out; the documents mentioning "Final Solution" and "Operation Reinhardt" in general consistently state it was resettlement)

2 - An individual human knew where the Jews were directly being resettled
Who would know all of this information? Very few people would have known every detail, it would have worked as an assembly line. Imagine you are a guard in a camp. A trainload of Jews enter the camp. This is now your concern. They are showered, processed, and you are told they are to be put on a train in 3 hours and sent in the other direction. Where? That is not your concern, it is not your job to know, your job is to make sure they get back on the train and then prepare for the next one that arrives. A train is not conscious, it only goes wherever the tracks are leading to.

So, who could have known all of these details?

- Hitler - suicide in his bunker
- Himmler - alleged suicide immediately post-war in allied custody
- Odilo Globocnik (responsible for the construction of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka) - allegedly either committed suicide or was murdered by partisans or Jewish avengers
- Hermann Höfle (Globocnik's deputy, responsible for deportations of Jews to the AR camps) - arrested right after the war then released; arrested later and then "committed suicide" in prison in 1962

Who was supposed to know the entire process? Does a pilot know where every passenger goes after leaving the airport? No, that is not his job or concern, he is too busy worrying about doing his job; it is not his job to know. And people can lie. And if you were involved in that and managed to survive the war and make it to Argentina or something, you would be concerned about keeping a low profile. Why open your mouth and bring attention to yourself?

3 - Physical evidence
What would this be in the form of? If your story was true, it would be in the form of millions of pounds of physical evidence in exactly known locations. This can not be shown to exist. If your story was not true, what form would physical evidence of resettlement be in, 70+ years after the fact? There wouldn't be any such thing
Last edited by Lamprecht on Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:14 am)

Hannover wrote:The claim that they were exterminated is further refuted by the fact that the human remains of those alleged millions do not exist.

That's not even a should - it's simply nature. You cannot bury millions of pounds of burnt human remains and then magically obliterate it with a layer of soil.

This was explained to gl0spana in this thread:

Challenge to exterminationist gl0spana on alleged mass graves // $100,000+ reward
viewtopic.php?t=13321

Now, documents? Those are easily misplaced. I have misplaced pieces of paper myself even though it was not my goal. If it was my goal it would be very simple to do
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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:19 am)

gl0spana wrote:By zero witnesses I mean there's no record of any German directly admitting (whether in trial or even generally in writing) to working at a camp for resettled Jews, or helping resettled Jews learn how to farm etc

Why this absurd standard? Your "Holocaust" story claims that certain camps were extermination centers. In specific cases the allegation is that they were pure extermination centers. Yet we have multiple guards that worked at the camps saying otherwise. Now, I agree that they do not say precisely where every single trainload of Jews went in the exhaustive level of detail that you demand. But this is completely unreasonable to demand, especially in the current year and under the circumstances.

What you are asking for is millions of travel itineraries during the bloodiest war in European history; travel itineraries that nobody claimed to have. The people that would have gotten ahold of them if they were left lying around - the very trustworthy Soviets - easily could have "misplaced" them completely.

It is not our job to explain where all of the Jews went. Personally, I never claimed to know and am not aware of any "denier" that does. It's the exterminationists that claim to know precisely where they went. They claim that they're still there and that could be forensically proven today, tomorrow, or yesterday. It has not been and will not be, I wonder why? I guess in 150 years some silly people will be demanding 2+ century-old travel itineraries. :roll:
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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby gl0spana » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:35 am)

Hannover wrote:The claim that they were exterminated is further refuted by the fact that the human remains of those alleged millions do not exist.

Recall that it's claimed by "The Holocaust Industry" that such remains do exist in supposedly known locations, yet they do NOT exist.

said:
there's no record of any German directly admitting (whether in trial or even generally in writing) to working at a camp for resettled Jews, or helping resettled Jews learn how to farm etc.

And why would Germans be left behind with resettled Jews? German personnel were certainly needed elsewhere; your point makes no sense.

I also see you dodged this thread:

Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps?:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13204

- Hannover


I read through that thread, didn't see this specific question come up or be addressed. If you have any specific comments relevant to this topic, I can answer those.

Resettled Jews would be subject to at the very least (if they were just getting shoved off trains and that was it) the local civilian authorities, which were guess what - either German, or operating under German supervision. Additionally there were hundreds of thousands of police and army units stationed in the rear to maintain order in these areas and fight partisans. Certainly there should be reports of Jews coming in from the west? There were many in 1941, early 42. For example from OSR 151:

In Minsk, as well as in Riga, everything is prepared for the reception of the Jewish transports from Germany. The first transport, composed of Jews from Hamburg, arrived in Minsk on November 10, 1941. On the same day, the Jews were assigned living quarters. It was observed that some of the Jews had a totally mistaken picture about their future. They imagined, for example, that they are pioneers and will be used to colonize the East. The first three transports that were to come to Riga were sent to Kaunas. The Riga camp that is to admit about 25,000 Jews is being built and will be completed very soon.


Why no such documents for late 42/43? Again we are talking about millions of Jews of coming in, as per Goebbels diary for example (I am treating 'liquidated' as meaning resettled in the east), and the clearly many millions of Jews in German captivity at this point:

"Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor."

Lastly as for the issue of remains, can you point me to a specific thread to respond to? I don't want to mix topics here.

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby gl0spana » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:41 am)

Lamprecht, as I explained my recent post, there is plenty of documentation about Jews being "resettled" in the east prior to mid 1942. At this point, concurrent with mass expulsions from Polish ghettos, there is no further documentation. I think you can't brush such a discrepancy under the rug so easily, why this drastic change?

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:15 am)

gl0spana wrote:there are 0 german documents or witnesses that describe anything happening to the millions of non-employable Jews (evacuated from ghettos in 42/43) once they are transited to the east, whether that means being put into holding camps, given farms, or transported into the soviet zone

So I'm talking about the resettlement process, NOT that the government's official position was they were being resettled (I agree with you this was the case)

How do you explain this?


The assumption here, is that the Jews made it as far as permanent resettlement during the largest war in human history. When in truth, it's more likely Jews were being shipped out in early stages of resettlement to concentration camps, and trasit camps to the east. We do not know, the Soviets came under control of eastern Europe, and as has been said, train documents have been destroyed, so it's hard to tell if, at all, permanent resettlement's did end up taking place to some degree or another. It's an irrelevant point because all the documents and actions make it clear that resettlement is what was occurring. Whether it was a finished process or not. It needn't have been.

As for "the government's position", that should be enough evidence, Gl0spana, are you implying we shouldn't trust the governments position? Based on what evidence and what actions should we not trust that the governments position, planning, and actions to resettle the Jews, as was happening, as has been shown and discussed by members of the government, aren't to be trusted as the true representations for what they were doing? This implication of yours relies on the German government being disingenuous, which you cannot show.

Lamprecht makes a good point that I would like to add a tiny bit to:

Lamprecht wrote:Your "Holocaust" story claims that certain camps were extermination centers. In specific cases the allegation is that they were pure extermination centers. Yet we have multiple guards that worked at the camps saying otherwise.


Why are there no Germans admitting to knowing about the Holocaust? Admitting that there were "pure" extermination centres, and that the goal was to exterminate Jews? Gl0spanas unreasonably high standard of evidence, which doesn't need to be met by revisionists, ISN'T even met by the orthodox historical narrative. WHY can't YOU meet this level of evidence Gl0spana?
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:26 am)

HMSendeavour wrote: Gl0spanas unreasonably high standard of evidence, which doesn't need to be met by revisionists, ISN'T even met by the orthodox historical narrative. WHY can't YOU meet this level of evidence Gl0spana?

There are only two options:
1. Post millions of complete travel itineraries for every Jew that came within a mile of an AR camp
2. They were pure extermination centers where millions were gassed and dumped into pits and then covered with soil (no, we can't show you, too much work)

Can you tell me what exactly is in the center of the moon, and prove it? Nope? Well then, I guess we have to assume it is cheese then :D

Well I will not tease you, I have some photographic evidence supporting my theory:

Image

Checkmate, cheese deniers
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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:36 am)

Lamprecht wrote:
HMSendeavour wrote:There are only two options:
1. Post millions of complete travel itineraries for every Jew that came within a mile of an AR camp
2. They were pure extermination centers where millions were gassed and dumped into pits and then covered with soil (no, we can't show you, too much work)

Can you tell me what exactly is in the center of the moon, and prove it? Nope? Well then, I guess we have to assume it is cheese then :D

Well I will not tease you, I have some photographic evidence supporting my theory:

Image

Checkmate, cheese deniers


PRECISELY! The dichotomy is false. The idea that "genocide" is the default position, and it is assumed that you can fall back on it when you (Gl0spana) makes unreasonable demands and assumptions about what kind of evidence "should exist" is ridiculous. It is actually those who hold the "extermination of the Jews" thesis that carry the burden of proof. They didn't prove it at Nuremberg, or any other trial, they have failed to prove it in the historiography yet insist it is the default position, which it isn't. This insistence, and passivity on behalf of the public who have been misled, or simply do not know better, is what keeps the Holocaust narrative alive.

When you realise how convoluted they must make their narrative, how they need to invent new pet theories (Kula columns, or prussian blue paint :lol:) to contend with the very obvious and simple revisionist refutations, not to mention how the "extermination" was allegedly conceived by nods and whispers via "euphemism" everyone was assumed to understand:

Finally, his (Christopher Browning's) own personal explanation of a “policy of the extermination of the Jews” was the same as Hilberg’s. Everything was explained by the “nod” of Adolf Hitler. In other words, the Führer of the German people did not need to give any written or even spoken order for the extermination of the Jews. It was enough for him to give a “nod” at the beginning of the operation and, for the rest, a series of “signals.” And that was understood!

The First Zündel trial (Castle Hill Publishers, 2020), Pp. 17


The exterminationist thesis cannot be defended, it just became more and more unfalsifiable in an attempt to defend itself.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby EtienneSC » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:46 am)

G10spana's question is reasonable. David Cole also raises it in his recent videos (see separate threads), as do the Holocaust Controversies bloggers in their pdf. There are records of people, including Jews, being funnelled through displaced persons camps in 1945 and after, but there is a lack of documentation on what may have happened between 1942 and 1945 to Jews deported under Aktion Reinhardt. Some Jews (not necessarily the deported ones) were killed, according to the Einsatzgruppen reports, confirmed by Himmler's Posen and Sondhoven speeches.

It would help if there we had a general account of when documents are created, when they are kept and when they aren't. Many low grade commercial documents are destroyed after a set number of years (around six in the UK, for example). Preservation thereafter depends on whether an organisation still exists (as the German state did not from May 1945 till its re-establishment), what legal rules are in force, the industry of archivists and no doubt other factors.

East European societies have been notably poor until recently, compared to the West and this may affect the situation. There is a literature about the history of German state documents post-1945, but I'm not sure what exists for countries like Poland and the CIS states. There are practical difficulties accessing documents created in Russian, as it's not a widely spoken language by western researchers and revisionist research is likely to be against the law in Russia because of the denial laws. So I can see G10spana's point that the situation is unsatisfactory. Until revisionism is regarded as a legitimate research project for proper funding, the situation is unlikely to change, save at a snail's pace.

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Hannover » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:21 pm)

gl0spana:

To no one's surprise you continue to dodge critical questions.

You cannot show us at all that German personnel were somehow left with resettled Jews such that they would be able to 'testify'.

You continue to dodge the fact that Jews themselves, and all of "The Holocaust Industry", state that the Jews you're discussing went to enormous mass graves in known locations. These alleged enormous remains in fact do not exist.

You refuse to show examples of any kind of records that you think would have been kept.

You continue to dodge the fact that outbound train records were stolen by the Allies which points to the obvious logical conclusion that any records on resettled Jews would indeed have been stolen by the Allies as well.

I did cite a thread where the human remains issue is discussed, but of course you dodged it.
Again:
Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps?:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13204

You cite a Goebbels quote, in English, which has been debunked repeatedly, of course you don't bother to do your own research here, see:
search.php?keywords=The+procedure+is+a+pretty+barbaric+one&fid%5B0%5D=2

And if what you're trying to imply about Goebell's diary entry was fact, we would be seeing the alleged human remains that Jews, and all of "The Holocaust Industry", claim exists, but do not.

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Re: gl0spana essentially says lack of German docs. on non-employable Jews implies extermination

Postby Hannover » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:31 pm)

EtienneSC wrote:G10spana's question is reasonable. David Cole also raises it in his recent videos (see separate threads), as do the Holocaust Controversies bloggers in their pdf. There are records of people, including Jews, being funnelled through displaced persons camps in 1945 and after, but there is a lack of documentation on what may have happened between 1942 and 1945 to Jews deported under Aktion Reinhardt. Some Jews (not necessarily the deported ones) were killed, according to the Einsatzgruppen reports, confirmed by Himmler's Posen and Sondhoven speeches.

It would help if there we had a general account of when documents are created, when they are kept and when they aren't. Many low grade commercial documents are destroyed after a set number of years (around six in the UK, for example). Preservation thereafter depends on whether an organisation still exists (as the German state did not from May 1945 till its re-establishment), what legal rules are in force, the industry of archivists and no doubt other factors.

Etienne, I invite you to answer the questions that I put to gl0spana.

The question is only "reasonable" if you ignore the surrounding facts that I and others have mentioned.

Naively, you seem to think that the Allies and it's Zionist adherents were going to leave behind any documents, like the stolen outbound train records, which exonerate the Germans from The Big Lie.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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