What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

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Sannhet
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What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Sannhet » 2 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:42 am)

Events of 2020 have gotten me thinking about scenarios whereby the power of the Holocaust is finally broken.

First, a slight step back: There was a small movement in Germany, in the 2000s maybe into the 2010s, to "self-incriminate" disbelief in the Holocaust, as a form of protest against unjust laws and against the unjust moral self-hate cult (which the new US ambassador-nominee to Germany has called a "stick mentality," comments for which Jewish lobby groups are trying to sink his appointment). As far as I heard, this "self-incrimination" meant presenting yourself to a police station and declaring that you "don't believe in the Holocaust" (gas chambers; extermination, planned or actual). As far as I know, the people who did this were generally pro forma charged with crimes, punished with a fine and given probation/supervision. Only a few were actually jailed.

It is a classic social dilemma: If enough people did this -- denied the Holocaust -- at once, it would break the system. If a few do it but not enough, the few will be punished. The system stays in place. The dilemma is for the individual: Do you join the few, or do you play it safe? Where along the line do you join the movement? The individual's decision depends specifically on others' decisions. Not over a decade, not over a lifetime, but in the immediate term. Power in numbers and unity is always true. Even if it's a minority position, if enough are willing to do it at once, the state wouldn't be able to handle it.

Thinking of it another way: What would the Bundesrepublik government do if 100,000 turned out to openly deny the Holocaust at a public rally?

______________

A real-world example of something like this from 2020 gets me especially thinking about this: The recent anti-Lockdown protests spreading in Germany (against the sudden empowerment of the state to dictate life on an unprecedented scale, in the name of "stopping" a flu virus). In theory, gatherings of large numbers of people are still illegal, but are they going to arrest them all? In practice, they can't, and they didn't. In fact, a week or so ago headlines were made when anti-Lockdown protesters "stormed the Reichstag." They were called "far right." I don't know what their ideologies were, nor do I know what "far right" means. I recognize the term to me just one of belittlement and attack, and exactly the same wording would be applied to this hypothetical anti-Holocaust mass protest.

To my knowledge there has never been an public mass protest denying the Holocaust or against the Holocaust Denial laws, though many small ones have been a short step or two away. Knowing the way the German state operates, if this hypothetically 100,000-strong rally did occur, they probably would order police reserves into emergency mode and do a mass arrest and then proceed with a mass trial. I can imagine that. But then, what if a second Holocaust Denial protest occurs? A third? How many are they willing to try to arrest? Would they need some kind of open-air holding facilities for these political offenders to, let's say, "concentrate" them in once place? It's easy to imagine the state losing control.

This is all very theoretical and I submit it only as food for thought and discussion.

The way the Holocaust finally unravels will not be because of mass demonstrations against the Holocaust (against Holocaust Enforcement laws), but there may be some kind of effective equivalent to it in the 2020s or 2030s, in which Holocaust power is seriously weakened and then street protests are a coup de grace, in which the state is unwilling to crack down and make mass arrests for Holocaust Denial. Look to the protests of 1989 for a precedent. The causes of the fall of the communist regimes, and the East Berlin regime specifically, are complex and cannot be simply said to be the street protests, but the important trigger for the fall of the regime was the unwillingness to violently suppress the demonstrations, and the refusal of anyone to pull a trigger in the overnight hours November 9-10, 1989 -- when a handful of hotheads began breaching the wall on their own initiative.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Hannover » 2 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:25 pm)

A good example of Germans speaking up en masse where they certainly can't all be arrested:

Fury in Germany as thousands join protests across country over lockdown measures and a vaccine plan by Bill Gates as Angela Merkel's popularity falls: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sures.html

Thousands march in Berlin anti-lockdown protest

"Up to 17,000 people, including libertarians and anti-vaccination activists, have marched in Berlin to protest against Germany's coronavirus regulations. Many flouted guidance on wearing masks and physical distancing as they accused the government of 'stealing our freedom'."

Only lies require oppression & censorship.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby PrudentRegret » 2 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:41 pm)

They would be crushed by the state.

Anti-lockdown protests are not a threat to the system. A Holocaust Revision demonstration in Germany absolutely would be.

In the US, the state is letting protesters riot & loot with very little intervention for the same reasons. BLM and antifa are shocktroopers for the prevailing dogma, they aren't a threat to the current order.

The Right-wing Charlottesville protest over the conservation of a Confederate statue was crushed by the state, even in the United States with supposedly strong free speech laws.

The anti-lockdown protesters "stormed the Reichstag" because they were allowed to do so. If protesters wanted to advocate for historical revision on the Holocaust they would be crushed with enthusiastic support from liberals worldwide.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Hannover » 2 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:19 pm)

PrudentRegret wrote:Anti-lockdown protests are not a threat to the system. A Holocaust Revision demonstration in Germany absolutely would be.

Not quite.

From the link I gave above:
as participants hold aloft slogans portraying figures like George Soros as the bogeyman in the virus crisis.

'I consider this type of protest to be extremely dangerous,' Felix Klein, the government's [highly paid Zionist, supremacist Jew] pointman on tackling anti-Semitism, told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.

'It undermines confidence in our democratic state and forms a reservoir in which conspiratorial anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers can be found alongside others with sometimes very obscure attitudes,' he added.
Such desperate, hollow statements are good indicators of the fact that the impossible 'holocaust' narrative cannot withstand rational examination. Only lies require censorship.

- Hannover

It's certainly telling when not a single Jew can be criticized.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby PrudentRegret » 2 weeks 1 day ago (Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:00 pm)

Hannover wrote:
PrudentRegret wrote:Anti-lockdown protests are not a threat to the system. A Holocaust Revision demonstration in Germany absolutely would be.

Not quite.

From the link I gave above:
as participants hold aloft slogans portraying figures like George Soros as the bogeyman in the virus crisis.

'I consider this type of protest to be extremely dangerous,' Felix Klein, the government's [highly paid Zionist, supremacist Jew] pointman on tackling anti-Semitism, told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.

'It undermines confidence in our democratic state and forms a reservoir in which conspiratorial anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers can be found alongside others with sometimes very obscure attitudes,' he added.
Such desperate, hollow statements are good indicators of the fact that the impossible 'holocaust' narrative cannot withstand rational examination. Only lies require censorship.

- Hannover

It's certainly telling when not a single Jew can be criticized.


I assure you that the elite doesn't mind conspiracy theories about George Soros being behind lock-down orders. It's a conspiracy theory that makes absolutely no sense. Why would the international financial elite want people at home not working?

They are taking the opportunity to associate Holocaust revisionism with groundless conspiracies about lock-down orders because it helps them. They can say "the same people who deny the Holocaust are the same ones who think George Soros created lock-down orders in response to the pandemic."

Instead of rallying against very real trends in the culture war, especially in the United States, the "right wing" is pre-occupied with protesting the pandemic response. I promise you the elite don't mind that because it's way off the mark. That's why mass protests like these are allowed to happen.

If they actually thought these protests were "extremely dangerous" then you wouldn't see Felix Klein saying it's "dangerous", you would see the government crackdown and crush the protests.

The fact these protests are allowed to happen is a strong indication of their fecklessness.

If a protest began to manifest which was closer to the mark, like Holocaust revisionism, it would be brutally crushed by the state.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Hannover » 2 weeks 22 hours ago (Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:58 am)

PrudentRegret wrote:I assure you that the elite doesn't mind conspiracy theories about George Soros being behind lock-down orders. It's a conspiracy theory that makes absolutely no sense. Why would the international financial elite want people at home not working?

They are taking the opportunity to associate Holocaust revisionism with groundless conspiracies about lock-down orders because it helps them. They can say "the same people who deny the Holocaust are the same ones who think George Soros created lock-down orders in response to the pandemic."

Instead of rallying against very real trends in the culture war, especially in the United States, the "right wing" is pre-occupied with protesting the pandemic response. I promise you the elite don't mind that because it's way off the mark. That's why mass protests like these are allowed to happen.

If they actually thought these protests were "extremely dangerous" then you wouldn't see Felix Klein saying it's "dangerous", you would see the government crackdown and crush the protests.

The fact these protests are allowed to happen is a strong indication of their fecklessness.

If a protest began to manifest which was closer to the mark, like Holocaust revisionism, it would be brutally crushed by the state.

You seem uninformed, and obviously haven't read & viewed what I posted.

Soros, like all leftists & Zionists, use the lock down to advance a globalist, Marxist, anti-Euro white, 'blame it on Trump' agenda.
Furthermore, they know that those out of work (private sector workers, of course) will be desperate and need the government to supply their income. And that is just as planned by the Soros Marxist types. A form of vote buying by the left.

Obviously the 'elites' do mind lock down protests big time, please review the quotes I posted.

Plus, if you really think these protests are "allowed to happen", then you have ignored:

1, the protestations of 'elites' like the quoted Zionist Klein
2. the fact that the state has in fact arrested many, to no avail
3. the state is making threats of further actions
4. the 'elitist' media are having a fit, painting the protestors as irrational 'conspiracy theorists', etc,
5, And to the point of this topic, there is some safety in numbers, the state cannot arrest thousands of protestors at a time

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Hektor » 1 week 6 days ago (Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:23 pm)

Regime won't arrest them all of course, but some of the identifiable leaders can expect to be involved into longer court cases. Not necessarily as a means to get them into jail, but as a form of shaming, humiliation and harassment. MSM reporting will be the usual witch-hunt-oh-thy-heretics-scenario.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby forasanerworld » 1 week 3 days ago (Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:39 pm)

We should look to history for guidance, 18th century Irishman Edmund Burke.
"Whilst men are linked together, they easily and speedily communicate the alarm of any evil design. They are enabled to fathom it with common counsel, and to oppose it with united strength. Whereas, when they lie dispersed, without concert, order, or discipline, communication is uncertain, counsel difficult, and resistance impracticable. Where men are not acquainted with each other’s principles, nor experienced in each other’s talents, nor at all practised in their mutual habitudes and dispositions by joint efforts in business; no personal confidence, no friendship, no common interest, subsisting among them; it is evidently impossible that they can act a public part with uniformity, perseverance, or efficacy. In a connection, the most inconsiderable man, by adding to the weight of the whole, has his value, and his use; out of it, the greatest talents are wholly unserviceable to the public. No man, who is not inflamed by vain-glory into enthusiasm, can flatter himself that his single, unsupported, desultory, unsystematic endeavours, are of power to defeat the subtle designs and united cabals of ambitious citizens. When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."


http://www.openculture.com/2016/03/edmu ... ction.html

As true today as it was then, just think of all those lone individuals picked off one at a time

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Sannhet » 1 week 3 days ago (Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:45 pm)

Hektor wrote:Regime won't arrest them all of course, but some of the identifiable leaders can expect to be involved into longer court cases.

I am surprised Bjoern Hoecke was never prosecuted for his comments that came very close to Denying the Holocaust (downplaying or trivializing the Holocaust) beginning in 2015 and continuing through his big breakthrough in the Thuringia Landtag election in 2019 and his dramatic success at the Landtag in early 2020 when he engineered a surprise victory for the FDP candidate (the result overturned by fiat by order from above; a bizarre anti-democratic process).

I think Hoecke's anti-Holocaust comments came as close as you can go for a public figure in Germany without being prosecuted. (The state still could have done it, charged him, but chose not to. Because they risked losing the case, maybe.)

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Sannhet » 1 week 2 days ago (Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 am)

PrudentRegret wrote:the elite don't mind [protesting the lockdowns]. That's why mass protests like these are allowed to happen.

If they actually thought these protests were "extremely dangerous" [...] you would see the government crackdown and crush the protests.

The fact these protests are allowed to happen is a strong indication of their fecklessness.

I think this is a mis-reading of the situation for this reason:

No one is handed an instruction booklet to life. You figure it out as you go. You push boundaries, or you follow those who do. That's why culture is always shifting. Never does culture or politics stand still.

When something completely new is introduced into a system, no one knows how to respond to it. Not the authorities/regime, not the loyal-opposition(s), not the extra-parliamentary opposition(s), not the largely-apolitical ordinary citizenry, not businesses, not churches, not anybody. Nobody has a script on what they're supposed to do. This creates a vacuum.

This whole flu lockdown idea is totally new. There has never been a months-long flu virus lockdown in the history of the Federal Republic of Germany (though historical data will show many years had flu spikes comparable to the magnitude of this one at its worst). Both "sides" (pro- and anti-lockdown), which only coalesced in the past six months, have had no idea what they're "supposed to do," the roles they're supposed to play, how far they can go. Even at local level, this is always a negotiated give-and-take through everyday experience. That is one good reason you may see weak suppression of anti-lockdown demonstrations.

The hypothetical aggregate of police captain or local officials, who do have the power to suppress the anti-Lockdown protesters more forcefully (apparently they have been brutally suppressed by violent force and mass arrests in Australia, fwiw), have all lived x many years and seen and heard a lot in their time, but only starting in March 2020 did they heard about the pressing need for Flu Lockdowns. They are probably going to lack the killer instinct to suppress the protesters, specifically because there has been no decades/generations' worth of Virus Lockdown education/promotion, no constant bombardment in the culture on how great lockdowns are, or on how terrible flu viruses are, on how flu viruses are so dangerous that we all need masks and ought never to eat at restaurants, etc. Nothing like that that has ever been part of our culture. The Holocaust, of course, has been.

As for Germany, the Holocaust and anti-nationalism / anti-Nazism has been a cornerstone of the Bundesrepublik for more-or-less its entire existence, with reinforcement of it an important part of the culture. Of course demonstrations that would seem to either deny or support the Holocaust, or support/glorify/resemble the perpetrators of the Holocaust (Nazis), would be suppressed.

We cannot compare a state response mechanism for something so long-established (Holocaust) with something so new (Virus Lockdowns). Both can have the backing of state power but have different responses.

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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Turpitz » 1 week 2 days ago (Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:41 am)

The fact these protests are allowed to happen is a strong indication of their fecklessness.


The reason they are allowed to proceed is because they have been totally infiltrated, exactly like 9/11. Like 'Anti-Social Media' it was set up so as to steer public discourse.

This woman , who is one of the best investigative people on the internet, has exposed these shit-bags totally and utterly.





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Re: What would happen if 100,000 Germans denied the Holocaust en masse at a public rally?

Postby Hektor » 1 week 2 days ago (Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm)

Sannhet wrote:
Hektor wrote:Regime won't arrest them all of course, but some of the identifiable leaders can expect to be involved into longer court cases.

I am surprised Bjoern Hoecke was never prosecuted for his comments that came very close to Denying the Holocaust (downplaying or trivializing the Holocaust) beginning in 2015 and continuing through his big breakthrough in the Thuringia Landtag election in 2019 and his dramatic success at the Landtag in early 2020 when he engineered a surprise victory for the FDP candidate (the result overturned by fiat by order from above; a bizarre anti-democratic process).

I think Hoecke's anti-Holocaust comments came as close as you can go for a public figure in Germany without being prosecuted. (The state still could have done it, charged him, but chose not to. Because they risked losing the case, maybe.)

I think Hoecke said something to the regard that the Berlin Holocaust monstrum is a "monument of our disgrace" - This was then interpreted as him having said that the 'monument is a disgrace'. Well.... it is of course, but that's not what he said. He didn't "deny" anything, but the response revealed that everyone knows that the "Holocaust Mahnmal" is actually despicable. It's ugly, it got undue prominence, it's oversized, and it's of course resting on false premises. The whole affair also revealed how strong that taboo is and its religious nature. You can say bad things about God, the Church, Jesus, Mary, even Mohammed in Germany. You can also deny the existence of any of those. But dare to hint at a problem with the Holocaust and people will get really upset. One needs to bear in mind that the AfD is actually a conservative-liberal party. With Bjoern Hoecke being one of the more openly patriotic proponents (They aren't different from the CDU/FDP/SPD prior to the 1980s. I'd consider them even more liberal than that). But to the establishment in Germany Hoecke is Hitler reincarnated and the AfD is a proto-Nazi party. At least that's how they try to portray it at any time.
I haven't been to Germany for a long time, but I can follow their news and also the debates on the internet. Of course I've seen this development coming already for a longer time already. The thing isn't that much that "Holocaust Denial" is punishable in Germany, the big thing is that it is untouchable to debate for the vast majority of Germans. They are at least uneasy to talk about it. Doubts on the matter will be responded to by downplay the margin of error. It's the whole "If only one Jew was murdered...."-routine. And the figures don't matter and even if parts of the narrative have been shown to be frauds.... the mythos still stands.

I don't expect the AfD to "deny the Holocaust", not even to debate the subject. But they could insist on freedom of speech and freedom of research for everyone on that matter. I do get however that they can't be controversial on every matter and that they have more pressing issues to resolve.


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