Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

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Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:32 pm)

Since you believe in the 'holocaust' narrative, and since it's claimed that 4,000,000 of the alleged 6,000,000 Jews, plus millions of 'others', were supposedly murdered in gas chambers, I challenge you to tell us specifically about these alleged 'murder weapons', for example:

- How did the alleged 'gas chambers' supposedly work?

- How was the alleged process supposedly carried out?

- How were people supposedly moved into them while keeping the whole thing secret as is claimed?

- How long did it supposedly take?

I'm sure others here will also have questions for you concerning the alleged gassing of many millions by the Germans.

I certainly hope you do not dodge this inquiry, and please, no name calling or off topic responses.

Thanks, Hannover

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby gl0spana » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:45 pm)

i'll focus on AR camps since they killed the most people this way (using averages of wikipedia estimates) 

520k at belzec
210k at sobibor
850k at treblinka

total 1,580

note: you are completely wrong about the orthodox view. clearly only 2.5 million could have  been gassed, and even that number is too high (many died in transport or were shot at these camps). also the vast majority of victims of gas chambers are regarded as being Jews, like 90+%.

- when you pump carbon monoxide into an enclosed space generally it will kill people

- see above

- it didn't matter if they knew (and they couldn't know for sure), there were dozens of armed guards in these camps

- usually under 30 minutes though this depended on concentration of gas used. also according to reports victims did not die immediately, some were even semi-conscious as they were put in the graves

 Testimony of SS Oberscharfuehrer Heinrich Matthes about Treblinka

During the entire time I was in Treblinka, I served in the upper camp. The upper camp was that part of Treblinka with the gas chambers, where the Jews were killed and their corpses laid in large pits and later burned.

About fourteen Germans carried out services in the upper camp. There were two Ukrainians permanently in the upper camp. One of them was called Nikolai, the other was a short man, I don’t remember his name…These two Ukrainians who lived in the upper camp served in the gas chambers. They also took care of the engine room when Fritz Schmidt was absent. Usually this Schmidt was in charge of the engine room. In my opinion, as a civilian he was either a mechanic or a driver…

All together, six gas chambers were active. According to my estimate, about 300 people could enter each gas chamber. The people went into the gas chamber without resistance. Those who were at the end, the Ukrainian guards had to push inside. I personally saw how the Ukrainians pushed the people with their rifle butts…

The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine room opened the gas chambers from the other side.



Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial, Dusseldorf:

….We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.

I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The chemist, who I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring instruments to test the concentration of the gas.

Following this, a gassing experiment was carried out. If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber, and were driven into the gas chamber by the above mentioned SS members and the Ukrainian auxiliaries. when the women were shut up in the gas chamber I and Bolender set the motor in motion. The motor functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched from “Neutral” (Freiauspuff) to “Cell” (Zelle), so that the gas was conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor on a definite speed so that it was unnecessary henceforth to press on the gas. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:04 am)

Will get back to this tomorrow, but quickly:

you said:
note: you are completely wrong about the orthodox view. clearly only 2.5 million could have been gassed, and even that number is too high (many died in transport or were shot at these camps). also the vast majority of victims of gas chambers are regarded as being Jews, like 90+%.

The claim is ca. 2M were killed by the Einsatzgruppen and 4M by gassing, depending on who you talk to. And the fake narrative says that the 'others were' killed in the same manner. I admit that the ridiculous numbers do fluctuate, which speaks loudly to the fake nature of the claims.

you said:
when you pump carbon monoxide into an enclosed space generally it will kill people

Strawman alert.
I see you dodged the fact that diesel fuel is claimed to be the source of this CO.
On the basis of generally accepted numbers of victims, nearly two-thirds of all the alleged Jewish victims of German gas chambers were supposedly gassed with Diesel exhaust."
see:
Diesel Gas Chambers: Ideal for Torture - Absurd for Murder, by Friedrich Paul Berg: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndieselgc.html
and:
The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9714

The diesel claim is so ridiculous that the industry has attempted to ignore it and claim gasoline.
In discussing the Kurt Gerstein fraudulent 'testimony' about diesel fuel, which contradicts your cited Fuchs, Leon Poliakov, who is a French speaking, Jewish 'historian', said:
"there is little to add to this description [the Gerstein statement] which holds good for Treblinka, Sobibor as well as for the Belzec camp. The latter installations were constructed in almost the same way and also used the exhaust carbon monoxide gases from Diesel motors as death agents."
According to Poliakov, more than a million and a half people were killed with Diesel exhaust. (fn. 10) - for more on the alleged 'diesel gassings' and why Yad Vashem would attempt to switch, see: http://codoh.com/library/document/982
and:
... at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, all in Poland. These gas chambers used carbon monoxide gas generated by diesel engines."
- https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... operations

And I see you avoided telling us:
- How the alleged 'gas chambers' supposedly work?
- How was the alleged process supposedly carried out?
- How were people supposedly moved into them while keeping the whole thing secret as is claimed?

I also note that you have not provided us with the full, verbatim 'testimony' and cross examination text for your references Mathes & Fuchs.
What are you trying to hide?

And once again, it's claimed by your "Holocaust Industry" that the immense human remains from the results of these absurdly alleged 'gassings' exist in precisely known locations. Yet there are no such remains.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:49 am)

gl0spana wrote:The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine room opened the gas chambers from the other side.


Anyone could claim anything, you haven't presented any proof that these things even happened - quoting people who claimed they did doesn't constitute evidence for the claim. The a-priori assumption you're making is that the gassings occurred and so you're giving us eyewitness testimony because it's a matter of details. This is untrue, the matter at hand is of the question itself. Whether gassings actually occurred. Of which, there is not a shred of proof.

It's understandable why you'd ignore Auschwitz, because you couldn't even try to defend the Holocaust on that front because the evidence against it is so overwhelming. You like the AR camps, as do most exterminationists, because of the lack of evidence that exists and the prominence of eyewitnesses.

Anyway, Erich Fuchs is not a reliable source. If you read Mattogno and Graf's book on Treblinka, you will soon find that his claims, and the claims of others contradict each other. http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/08-t.pdf also search through the combined work of Mattogno, Kues and Graf: http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar.pdf. Mattogno is going to be putting out another, revised and updated book on Aktion Reinhardt that will combine the efforts of all these works, so we'll hopefully get some more good information from that.

in 1965 Bauer drew inspiration from descriptions of the two alleged gassing facilities of Bełżec, putting together elements taken from statements by Kozak on the one hand (wooden shed, three gas chambers) and from Gerstein and Reder on the other (foundation reinforced by concrete). There was also an obvious case of “contamination” of the testimonies. Fuchs in fact also spoke about two or three “gas chambers”: “To my knowledge there were 2-3 gas chambers in Sobibor.” 1905 Can one seriously believe that Bauer and Fuchs, although they are so-called perpetrator eye-witnesses, did not even know the exact number of the “gas chambers” in Sobibór?

Carlo Mattogno, Thomas Kues, Jürgen Graf, The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhardt" (Castle Hill Publishers, 2015), Pp. 747.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:01 am)

HMSendeavour astutely notes:
Anyone could claim anything, you haven't presented any proof that these things even happened - quoting people who claimed they did doesn't constitute evidence for the claim.

Recall there are countless "eyewitnesses" to witchcraft & sorcery ... that were even supported by 'documents', governments worldwide, and courts of law.

What those 'holocaust eyewitnesses' actually say:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4544
and:
the so called 'Holocaust' / theatre of the absurd:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Pia Kahn » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:43 am)

Gl0spana has made the number 1 mistake that holocaust historians make. He is relying solely on eye witness testimony. Eye witness testimony is not reliable. It has no meaning if it is not supported by supplementary evidence. You don't believe me?

Check out Elisabeth Loftus research on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB2OegI6wvI

So next time you post something gl0spana, don't present us with these stories. We want proof.
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:24 am)

Fuchs mentions a "Russian benzine engine" at Sobibor - benzine engine = gasoline, not diesel.

It is interesting that Fuchs was acquitted at the Belzec trial and received a sentence of only 4 years imprisonment after the Sobibor trial. I guess the "Allies" found his statements very useful.

What he described is a V-8 water-cooled [or air-cooled] Russian engine, most likely from an armored vehicle or tractor.

gl0spana can you show us the actual engine that was used? There are databases of engines that were used by the Soviets in their various vehicles. We should be able to figure out the make and model if it actually corresponded to something real.

Fuchs said at another time that it had four inline cylinders and has been described as a knowledgeable mechanic, but why would he contradict himself then? He wasn't sure how many cylinders or whether it was air- or water-cooled. Fuchs claimed to have personally worked on and repaired the engine, by the way.

Why would they use a Russian/Soviet engine instead of something German, which they would have had spare parts for and have been more familiar with as mechanics?
Why use a gasoline engine when there were much simpler, cheaper methods of producing CO? There would have been no load on the engine.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:40 pm)

Well, that was a quick rout of the ridiculously alleged 'Aktion Reinhardt CO gas chambers'.

So now it's time for Gl0spana to tell us about the alleged Auschwitz 'Zyklon-B / cyanide gas chambers' that he believes in.

Same questions, same specifics, same 'no dodging', 'no name calling' request.

We eagerly await.

Cheers, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby gl0spana » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:24 pm)

hannover - it is unknown to orthodoxy how many were killed in gas vans (which I guess could be considered mobile gas chambers but are not conventionally known as such) but it's not 2 million. einsatzgruppen (and related agencies) are not believed to have killed more than 2 mil total in highest estimates

that the basis for such testimonies is "contamination" is clearly violated by the fact that witnesses with first hand experience of the gassing apparatus said they were petrol (if they mentioned it at all), in direct contradiction of the orthodox view. this strengthens the case the witnesses are legit, unless they were being told exactly what to say by some higher authority (for which there is 0 evidence in west german trials)

This also quite conveniently dispels the diesel issue (it appears orthodoxy was mistaken here, and revisionists perhaps should get credit for helping bring the truth to light). I'm surprised you're not familiar with this, being that you have spent multiple decades studying these matters. See witness statements provided by HC blog here:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _9432.html

(somebody like gerstein was an outsider, and only at the camp for a day, w no close experience of the apparatus, therefore his testimony should carry less weight) 

Can you provide the Fuchs cross examination? I would be interested to see it. 
------------
pia kahn - that is indeed a very interesting video and should be instructive for everyone here. Yes testimony made 5, 20, 40 years after the fact is inevitably going to have some element of unreliability, which would cause the discrepancies you all are so keen to point out. So too information can be "contaminated" (this seems a pretty good explanation for the proliferation of diesel story). What is less likely is that whole events, and in fact extended periods in people's lives, could be invented wholesale. This would be like the victim the speaker describes at the beginning of the video not just wrongly believing a particular man had raped her, but believing she'd been raped when it hadn't happened at all. 

Now towards the end of the video the speaker says that such memories could possibly be implanted by skilled psychologists. But she says the rate of success is at most 50%, and there is no evidence (other witness testimony) of "allied" psychologists doing this so I think this is unlikely unlikely.  as for your statement, "So next time you post something gl0spana, don't present us with these stories. We want proof."
-----------
lamprecht - i'm not so familiar with engines so therefore will not be conducting an investigation here, but I don't think engine efficiency is a big deal. What was important was how much carbon monoxide the engine could produce. When gasoline is burned it is converted into carbon monoxide. Perhaps the soviet engine was used because it was big and powerful. Anyone familiar with the military side of things knows that the germans frequently repurposed, even frankensteined, soviet gear in this way. 

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Hannover » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:39 pm)

Gl0spana, please pay attention:
Historian Raul Hilberg estimates that between 1941 and 1945 the Einsatzgruppen, related agencies, and foreign auxiliary personnel killed more than two million people
You clearly do not grasp the narrative you're trying to promote.

Thoughts:

Now you're dodging the facts that I posted about the multitudes of claims presented by Believers like you about "diesel gas chambers".
Further proof that you can't handle the very story you religiously cling to. Please actually read what I post.

Gerstein, "an outsider"? LOL
He's been cited repeatedly by your "Holocaust Industry", and once again you dodge, this time what I posted by 'historian' Leon Poliakov, try actually reading it. Again:
"there is little to add to this description [the Gerstein statement] which holds good for Treblinka, Sobibor as well as for the Belzec camp. The latter installations were constructed in almost the same way and also used the exhaust carbon monoxide gases from Diesel motors as death agents."
According to Poliakov, more than a million and a half people were killed with Diesel exhaust. (fn. 10) - for more on the alleged 'diesel gassings' and why Yad Vashem would attempt to switch, see: http://codoh.com/library/document/982


You posted this laughable link from the discredited 'holocaust controversies' *: https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... _9432.html
which is proof that there was an attempt to switch to 'gasoline' engines, after, as Fritz berg correctly stated:
on the basis of generally accepted numbers of victims, nearly two-thirds of all the alleged Jewish victims of German gas chambers were supposedly gassed with Diesel exhaust."

You also dodged this:
... at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, all in Poland. These gas chambers used carbon monoxide gas generated by diesel engines."
- https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... operations

* The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt”, An Analysis and Refutation of Factitious “Evidence,” Deceptions and Flawed Argumentation of the “Holocaust Controversies” Bloggers, By Jürgen Graf , Carlo Mattogno , Thomas Kues:
https://codoh.com/library/document/3052/?lang=en

You also dodged this:
... at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, all in Poland. These gas chambers used carbon monoxide gas generated by diesel engines."
- https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... operations

It is you who cited Fuchs, not me. Predictably you dodged my challenge for you to present to us the verbatim text of his 'testimony and cross examination. What are you trying to hide?

I see you also dodged these:
How the alleged 'gas chambers' supposedly work?
- How was the alleged process supposedly carried out?
- How were people supposedly moved into them while keeping the whole thing secret as is claimed?

And as usual you are in denial of your beloved "Holocaust Industry" said about immense human remains which that they claim exist in precisely know locations, which in fact do not exist.

Still waiting for you to respond to the same challenges regarding the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Moderator » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 pm)

Gl0spana, you added a lot of off topic, irrelevant text to the end of your last post.
To avoid confusion and distraction I have removed that text. Nothing related to the topic of this thread was removed.
Please follow the guidelines you agreed to.
If you want to start new threads on "Holocaust" topics that you have not previously discussed, then please do so.
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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:44 pm)

gl0spana wrote: i'm not so familiar with engines so therefore will not be conducting an investigation here, but I don't think engine efficiency is a big deal. What was important was how much carbon monoxide the engine could produce. When gasoline is burned it is converted into carbon monoxide. Perhaps the soviet engine was used because it was big and powerful. Anyone familiar with the military side of things knows that the germans frequently repurposed, even frankensteined, soviet gear in this way.

Anyone familiar with the history knows that the Germans usually went for used Soviet engines instead of creating something cheaper, simpler, and more efficient for the job? :roll:

If he is not describing any engine that actually existed then he is simply making the story up. This would have benefitted him greatly in these trials. Gustav Franz Wagner was also stationed at Sobibor, but he denied the allegations of homicidal gassings. He supposedly "committed suicide" by stabbing himself to death in his bathroom.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Moderator » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:57 am)

Gl0spana:
As is typical of you, you're dodging just about everything that was posted in response to your claims.
You have also tried to distract and change the subject. That is not the behavior of someone wanting legitimate debate, or of someone who has facts to back up their position.
Frankly, I have to ask, what's wrong with you? You have a perfect opportunity to prove an alleged historical event which you place great faith in.
Yet all we see is evasion and incoherence.
So, please address the specific challenges with specific responses, stop trolling the thread, or take a hike.
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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby borjastick » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:11 am)

Avoidance, distraction, obfuscation, never accepting the premise of the question, answering with questions and never staying on point. Not only it the modus operandi of the holocaust myth believer it is the direction of all liars.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Challenge to Believer & Forum registrant Gl0spana on Alleged 'Gas Chambers'

Postby Breker » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:03 pm)

borjastick wrote:Avoidance, distraction, obfuscation, never accepting the premise of the question, answering with questions and never staying on point. Not only it the modus operandi of the holocaust myth believer it is the direction of all liars.

Another desperate tactic at this forum by True Believers after their arguments are refuted, debunked, is to post nonsense way outside the guidelines, get chastised for that behaviour by the Moderator, and then resort to claiming "censorship".
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