Why it doesn't matter that existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

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Why it doesn't matter that existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby gl0spana » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:31 pm)

based on this thread: 
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13367&start=30

I believe I have answered your questions and made clear that I cannot prove or show mass amounts of human remains at Belzec. 

However I have repeatedly stated this fact does not hurt the orthodox narrative.

some of you seem curious about my reasoning here so I will say this: 

witness testimony suggests at belzec most of the cremains of the victims were dumped in the graves. this was not the case at other camps like treblinka or auschwitz, where they are supposed to have been scattered in various places.  Post war there have been two main studies at Belzec

to quote from the 1946 study
"The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shin bones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones." 


There was also an expert opinion given: 
On grounds of the postmortem examination made I find that the aforementioned bones and soft tissue parts as well as the ash are predominantly of human origin. A very small part comes from wood. Judging by the huge amount of ash and bones I assert that the same must be from a very large quantity of human bodies.   


In the late 90s another excavation was conducted (by  Andrzej Kola) and here's an example of what was found 
verbatim description from his study
Grave Pit No.5

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relicts. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.


judging by this description the grave (i will use their terminology) is at least half full of "crematory remains" = 675 cubic meters worth

here i calculated the ashes of 1000 100-pound bodies can fit in 1.6 cubic meters

https://twitter.com/whatcorner/status/1 ... 9143997440

based on these calculations this grave alone could hold cremains of 420,000. however the ash was mixed with sand and might not be totally pure, but if we say only 1/10th of the crematory layers are actually human ash that is still 40,000 destroyed bodies worth

As you can see from the other descriptions, "crematory remains", "body ash", etc is present in most of the other 33 graves as well (w/ grave 4, volume is actually given "The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.")
  https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html  

So I hope you agree it is pretty obvious that if these studies were honestly conducted, mass amounts of remains are overwhelmingly indicated and the orthodox narrative corroborated. The question is are they honest studies? That's what I can't prove. Naturally those in charge of these digs could have been paid off or otherwise under the influence of various powers. 

Based on the fact the opposition is most certainly extremely motivated and wealthy, almost any hypothetical study could be fabricated. The only possibility that might allow for actual verification (proof) is opening up the site for anyone to come in and do their own personal digs. 

As for the reason why no full scale excavation has been done? There has been no need. 

As I stated in this recent exchange (which is pretty relevant) https://twitter.com/whatcorner/status/1 ... 7680712704

"Demand must come from somewhere, whether scientific/historical communities or popular audience. Mainstream historians don't care cuz they know what's down there (confirmed already by studies they have no reason to doubt) and theyre not much interested by crushed bones and ashes" 


The only party actually interested -holocaust revisionists - is a group that doesn't currently threaten the status quo and wouldn't trust the results anyhow, so it's not surprising their demands haven't been met.

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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:14 pm)

Except it does matter, since
(1) the claim is that they have been proven to exist
(2) it is illegal to deny the alleged 'Holocaust' in various countries
(3) the physical evidence could easily be shown to exist if it does in fact exist

gl0spana wrote:witness testimony suggests at belzec most of the cremains of the victims were dumped in the graves. this was not the case at other camps like treblinka or auschwitz, where they are supposed to have been scattered in various places

The "eyewitness testimony" is not consistent but at Treblinka (which also had alleged investigations) it was indeed claimed that the corpses were dug up from pits, burned, then dumped into the same pits. Since the testimony is not actually consistent you can cherry-pick different testimonies and change your official narrative at will.

to quote from the 1946 study

Anyone can wrte anything they want on a piece of paper, there are no photographs of these alleged huge pits. Note that the Katyn mass graves investigations during the war by the Germans actually produced photographs.

In the late 90s another excavation was conducted (by Andrzej Kola) and here's an example of what was found

Again, anythng can write anything they want on a paper. By the late 1990s, cameras were cheap, abundant, and plentiful. There would have been no reason for Kola to not photograph a pit after excavating it. Note that Kola only provided drawings of the alleged core samples.

here i calculated the ashes of 1000 100-pound bodies can fit in 1.6 cubic meters

Please show us 1.6 cubic meters of burnt remans at Belzec.

Human remans don't turn into "ash"

based on these calculations this grave alone could hold cremains of 420,000

The alleged grave has not even been shown to exist. Anyone could write that they found a grave full of human remains at a site. The fact that he did not photograph any excavation of this site suggests he is hiding something.

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety.org.uk/contents/belzec/belzecexcavations.html

So there are photographs, but just not of human remains. So there was at least a camera.

The only possibility that might allow for actual verification (proof) is opening up the site for anyone to come in and do their own personal digs.

Alternatively they could follow simple directions and photgraph the site as they excavate the graves.

Mass grave excavation guidelines / The "Mass grave excavations don't produce photographed bodies" lie
viewtopic.php?t=12889

As for the reason why no full scale excavation has been done? There has been no need.

Well of course you do not "need" to prove your claims when you can imprison or otherwise harass people that question them.

"Demand must come from somewhere, whether scientific/historical communities or popular audience. Mainstream historians don't care cuz they know what's down there (confirmed already by studies they have no reason to doubt) and theyre not much interested by crushed bones and ashes"

Except they do not know what is down there, they just have to trust whatever was written by someone who - for some curious reason - did not follow simple [universal] guidelines and actually excavate and photograph the remains.
They may not be interested in human remains but if they weren't interested in "debunking Holocaust deniers" they wouldn't have made so many desperate attempts to do so.

The only party actually interested -holocaust revisionists - is a group that doesn't currently threaten the status quo and wouldn't trust the results anyhow, so it's not surprising their demands haven't been met.

These are simple guidelines actually. Who says they wouldn't trust the results if the pits were excavated and photographed the entire time? It's not like this ever happened, even though it should.

If there was no threat to the "status quo" then why are there laws against "Holocaust denial" and why do exterminationists complain about "deniers" posting online, boycotting social media websites for not removing these posts?

According to ADL figures, "Holocaust denial" is growing rapidly throughout the world. It increased in Italy to 15.6% from 2.7% since 2004 (see: viewtopic.php?p=95442#p95442).

Your argument appears to be simply:
"We don't actually have to prove anything because we found some people willing to claim they have evidence [that they refuse to show] and anyone that will question their conclusions is liable to be persecuted"

Not convincing at all.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby gl0spana » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:41 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Except it does matter, since

Anyone can wrte anything they want on a piece of paper, there are no photographs of these alleged huge pits. Note that the Katyn mass graves investigations during the war by the Germans actually produced photographs.



w/ Katyn Germans were motivated to sow discord between Soviets and Western Allies, in service of the existential conflict they were in, and not really winning anymore, thanks to the events of 42/43 (Stalingrad and loss of North Africa)

no such motivation existed post war, in part because Germany was defeated but mostly because people believed it (including most of the Nazis at Nuremberg or at least this is what they said).

Would you believe photographs of pits full of stuff that looked like this? Image

mixed with sand by the way

I don't think you're that dumb, if you already believe in the existence of a conspiracy (Kola would necessarily have to be in on everything)

As I said, the only way to prove it to you guys would be to allow you full access to the site to perform your own excavations. I do not find it suspicious that they have not allowed you guys to do this.

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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:48 pm)

gl0spana wrote:w/ Katyn Germans were motivated to sow discord between Soviets and Western Allies, in service of the existential conflict they were in, and not really winning anymore, thanks to the events of 42/43 (Stalingrad and loss of North Africa)

Why should they have expected anyone to believe them if they didn't provide photographs and invite journalists from independent countries to witness the actual excavations?
The motive was to actually do a thorough investigation. They didn't even finish it, they just wanted the world to see what was there. After a while, they stopped digging because it was a waste of resources since the war was going on.

no such motivation existed post war, in part because Germany was defeated but mostly because people believed it (including most of the Nazis at Nuremberg or at least this is what they said).

Most of the Germans at Nuremberg denied the claims of an extermination of Jews.
Also, you're entirely wrong about the motive, again. The motive of providing photographs and inviting journalists from other countries was to prove that they didn't simply make everything up. You do that by excavating the pits and photographing them with neutral parties present to confirm that it actually happened.

Would you believe photographs of pits full of stuff that looked like this? Image

We should expect a load of burnt bones and teeth and wood ash inside of enormous pits. They were not cremated in ovens but on giant outdoor pyres. You'd expect photographs of the pit before, during, and after excavation. We don't have any such photographs. These sorts of excavations should be done because there are laws stipulating that people cannot question the claims of genocide.

I don't think you're that dumb, if you already believe in the existence of a conspiracy (Kola would necessarily have to be in on everything)

Your entire "Holocaust" narrative is the conspiracy theory. Kola himself could not legally conclude that there was no extermination at Belzec, as a Polish citizen that would be a crime.

As I said, the only way to prove it to you guys would be to allow you full access to the site to perform your own excavations. I do not find it suspicious that they have not allowed you guys to do this.

They could have just done actual investigations at the site, complete with photographs of the entire process.
I wouldn't just blindly believe what a revisionist says on the topic either if he just writes up a report about him digging up and finding nothing, taking no photographs of the entire process when hundreds should have been taken if he/she actually did such a thing. Anyone can write anything they want on a piece of paper.

Again, your argument remains:
"Well we don't have to actually prove it because it's illegal to question anyway"

That's just ridiculous. No wonder "Holocaust denial" is rising around the world and calls for censorship are increasing. Your ridiculous conspiracy theory does not stand up to rational scrutiny.

By the way, your position that there are huge mass graves at Belzec is weaker as a result of these reports than it was before since they are nothing more than words typed on paper when there was an actual opportunity to provide something of real evidentiary value and that opportunity was squandered, most likely deliberately.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:23 am)

gl0spana wrote:w/ Katyn Germans were motivated to sow discord between Soviets and Western Allies, in service of the existential conflict they were in, and not really winning anymore, thanks to the events of 42/43 (Stalingrad and loss of North Africa)


That's ridiculous. If discord did not want to be sown, then the Soviets would not have committed the atrocity at Katyn in the first place, and then blamed in on the Germans who, completely within reason, took the appropriate measures to disprove their lies. How you can twist this very obvious morally unambiguous situation around onto the Germans is beyond unreasonable.

Anyway, you're clearly suggesting that it wouldn't have been a legitimate tactic, in theory, to sow discord between two of your enemies to gain an advantage during a war for your own survival. Of course it's legitimate, and nothing new. It certainly wouldn't change the fact that what the Germans uncovered at Katyn was an atrocity committed by the Soviets in which they must bear all the blame for whatever resulted from it. End of story.

The Soviets wreaked much more terror in Poland during their short time occupying that country than the Germans did.
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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:57 am)

HMSendeavour wrote:
gl0spana wrote:w/ Katyn Germans were motivated to sow discord between Soviets and Western Allies, in service of the existential conflict they were in, and not really winning anymore, thanks to the events of 42/43 (Stalingrad and loss of North Africa)

That's ridiculous. If discord did not want to be sown, then the Soviets would not have committed the atrocity at Katyn in the first place, and then blamed in on the Germans who, completely within reason, took the appropriate measures to disprove their lies. How you can twist this very obvious morally unambiguous situation around onto the Germans is beyond unreasonable.

Anyway, you're clearly suggesting that it wouldn't have been a legitimate tactic, in theory, to sow discord between two of your enemies to gain an advantage during a war for your own survival. Of course it's legitimate, and nothing new. It certainly wouldn't change the fact that what the Germans uncovered at Katyn was an atrocity committed by the Soviets in which they must bear all the blame for whatever resulted from it. End of story.

The Soviets wreaked much more terror in Poland during their short time occupying that country than the Germans did.

Not to mention the fact that the Western "Allies" already knew about various Soviet atrocities before they went to war with Germany. The Holodomor for example was reported on in the English press and was in the early 1930s.
The Americans helped the Soviets cover up their massacre at Katyn: http://archive.fo/StI4m

Gl0spana shoots himself in the foot anyway. Why would the Germans have to actually uncover and photograph the pits? Why not just write about it? Why not just type it all up on pieces of paper and interview witnesses if that is sufficient enough to establish the existence of mass graves?

Because it isn't. That sort of evidence is so easy to fabricate. Actually going to the site and photographing it before, during, and after the excavations is necessary. That's why the guidelines I have found describe such processes. Well, I guess it's not necessary when you can just imprison or harass people that publicly question the allegations. :roll:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:02 am)

gl0spana wrote:to quote from the 1946 study


What study? By whom? Where can this study be viewed? Anyway, I think you'll find most of this information addressed if you just check the relevant Holocaust handbooks. I would look for it, but "the 1946 study" isn't exactly an easy thing to search for.

It might interest you to read the latest Holocaust Handbook which is all about testimonies related to Bełżec:

Carlo Mattogno: Rudolf Reder versus Kurt Gerstein—Two False Testimonies on the Bełżec Camp Analyzed http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/43-rrvkg.pdf

Kola's study by the way, completely refutes the ridiculous testimony of Rudolf Reder:

“The witness [Rudolf Reder] informs that in the second stage of the camp functioning the gas chamber was located directly close to the graves. According to him, however, the chamber was made of concrete. The excavations carried out in that area did not prove any traces of brick or concrete buildings, which makes that report unreliable.”

Andrzej Kola quoted in: https://codoh.com/library/document/the-final-solution-a-response-to-christopher/en/
Archive: https://archive.vn/0C0p5


As for your claim that the 33 graves could fit the remains 420,000 corpses, this is utterly ridiculous and untrue:

The pits have an average surface area of about 180 square meters, or almost 6,000 square meters in total—less than 10 percent of the camp. The total volume is about 21,000 cubic meters. Thus, both in area and volume, the total grave space is far less than that required—in fact, the volume is only about one-quarter of the necessary space. Kola’s “33 mass graves” could actually hold about 147,000 bodies, if filled to the brim. But even if they did, what happened to the other 400,000 bodies?

[...]

Of the 236 samples showing evidence of human remains, most were in the form of human ash. Kola published details on the most significant 137—though with a highly ambiguous and cryptic pictorial analysis. Of these, only six bore traces of unburned corpses. The thickness of the corpse layer was always less than one meter—out of a total depth of 5 m—and always at the bottom of the pits. One meter of thickness corresponds to perhaps three or four bodies, so if each of the six positive samples cut through this many, Kola has found, technically, no more than some two dozen unburned corpses. Surely there are more than these in total under the camp, but lacking a full-scale excavation, we will not know.

And what did someone like O’Neil conclude from this? His 1998 article, at which time only two pits with corpses had been found, makes a bold prediction: “How many [unburned] bodies remain in these two graves is difficult to establish. To be sure, there are many thousands” (p. 54). How O’Neil jumps from positive evidence of only two dozen bodies to “thousands” is left unexplained. Tregenza (2000: 258) is more specific, but no more justified: “on the order of at least 15,000.” By comparison Mattogno (2011: 79) concludes: “the most probable interpretation is that the graves contained at most several hundred [unburned] corpses.” But, as noted, a small number of unburned bodies is consistent with the conventional account of things. Thus one wonders why O’Neil and Tregenza felt compelled to infer vast figures when in fact they were unnecessary.

Of the ashes themselves, they seem to be far short of the required amount. The ash that Kola found was not pure, but mixed with sand—often more than 50 percent. And more than half of his relevant samples had only a very thin sand/ash layer, sometimes almost down to nothing. Kola’s analysis is so poor that it is difficult to come to clear conclusions, but Mattogno (p. 87) determines that these data are “absolutely incompatible” with any mass incineration.

[...]

In the end, the Bełżec excavations led to highly mixed results. Yes, there were many bodies buried there, most after being burned. But (a) both sides of the debate agree that many people died there, people who must have been burned or buried, and (b) the total mass of remains is much smaller than the traditionalists would have us believe. Based on the excavation data, Mattogno (p. 91) concludes that “it is possible to infer, from what has been discussed above, an order of magnitude of several thousands, perhaps even some tens of thousands” of deaths. But certainly not hundreds of thousands.

Prof. Dr. Thomas Dalton, Debating the Holocaust: A New Look at Both Sides (Castle Hill Publishers, 4th edition, February 2020), Pp. 166, 167-168, 169.


Samual Crowell points to a similar conclusion:

The basic result is that the team discovered about 30 graves, yielding in the aggregate about 6,000 square meters of possible original grave space; using Ball’s constant of ten bodies per square meter of surface area, that could yield about 60,000 corpses

Samual Crowell, The Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes (Nine-Banded Books, 2011), Pp. 139. footnote 502.


Mattogno, in his recent study on Rudolf Reder and Kurt Gerstein, points out (using evidence already examined in other Holocaust Handbooks) that Kola's survey reults were 'erroneous' and 'inflated':

All of Reder’s assertions about mass graves – regarding their number, size and distribution on the camp grounds – have been refuted by the results of archaeological investigations conducted in the years 1997-1998 on the grounds of the former Bełżec Camp by Prof. Dr. Andrzej Kola of the Nicolaus Copernicus University of Toruń. By taking soil-core samples with a hand drill, he claims to have identified 33 mass graves with a maximum depth of 5.2 meters, a total area of 5,490 square meters, and a total volume of 21,310 cubic meters.36 Reder, however, claimed that 30 pits were dug during his four-month stay at the camp alone, each measuring 100 m × 25 m × 15 m, with a total surface area of 75,000 square meters and a cumulative volume of 1,125,000 cubic meters. I have explained the reason for this crazy lie already earlier.

36. See Mattogno 2016, p. 73 (list of Kola’s survey results; in that list, the surface area of Grave #27 was erroneously given as 540 m², when it is in fact only 111 m², hence the total given there for all graves is too large by 429 m²). In fact, Kola adopted an arbitrary and fallacious test procedure for the number, shape, and dimensions of the mass graves; its data is demonstrably inflated; see Mattogno/Kues/Graf, pp. 1147-1155.


Carlo Mattogno, Rudolf Reder versus Kurt Gerstein: Two False Testimonies on the Bełżec Camo Analyzed (Castle Hill Publishers, January 2021), Pp. 73. footnote 36.


As we can see, and hopefully you can too gl0spana - there is no proof to substantiate a claim about 400,000 corpses, nor is it clear that they're related to any alleged "Holocaust", and not some other circumstantial situation that resulted from the chaos of the Second World War. In fact, Kola et al. couldn't even locate any alleged Gas Chambers:

the team found no evidence of any gas-chamber buildings. O’Neil wrote in 1998, halfway through the work, “We found no trace of the gassing barracks dating from either the first or second phase of the camp’s construction” (p. 55). By the time of the final report, Kola claimed to have found evidence for the second, larger gassing facility—except that the structure he found was all wood, not concrete. Rather than rejecting his gas-chamber hypothesis, Kola surprisingly rejected all standard accounts of a brick-and-concrete building as erroneous. And in fact the only reason he decided that this structure was a gas chamber in the first place was simply because it was in the “right location”—hardly conclusive proof.

Ibid., p. 169.


You would do better to read the Holocaust Handbooks gl0spana, and also search for relevant terms in the CODOH library.

We're left with an interesting question though. How did the 400,000 figure even come about? Because, there is certainly no good proof for it, yet the affirmation of such a figure would suggest otherwise. You don't just pull a number out of thin air and then work backwards in an attempt to prove it. Yet this is exactly what the Exterminationist propagandists have done. They're trying to prove a figure by forcing the evidence to conform to it, rather than be guided by the evidence they do find. So, whatever their analysis, whatever their reports, all of it is biased and unreliable due to the problem being examined from an angle that tries to find a shred of a reason, no matter how small, to fit their preconceived conclusions. This is not honest scientific inquiry. It is fraudulent.

You're no different gl0spana, you have no good reason to believe in the Holocaust, certainly no reason to believe, even with some graves, that mass murder/genocide occurred at Belzec (or anywhere else), or that the number of dead could possibly be 400,000, yet you started from the position that a) the Holocaust happened and b) there must be some remains amounting to an arbitrary figure of 400,000 because you believe in a). This is not proof, this is not logical, this is purely an exercise in faith based reasoning which has no basis in historical matters that are now punishable by law and not allowed to be questioned.

Also see:

Belzec/Kola – Going to Extremes to Sell the Lie
https://codoh.com/library/document/belzeckola-going-to-extremes-to-sell-the-lie/en/

Bełżec - The dubious claims of Michael Tregenza
https://codoh.com/library/document/bezec-the-dubious-claims-of-michael-tregenza/en/

Belzec - The Testimony of Chaim Hirszman
https://codoh.com/library/document/belzec-the-testimony-of-chaim-hirszman/en/

Facing a New Decade
https://codoh.com/library/document/facing-a-new-decade/en/

Belzec or the Holocaust Controversy of Roberto Muehlenkamp
https://codoh.com/library/document/belzec-or-the-holocaust-controversy-of-roberto/en/


Here's a short paragraph of what Jurgen Graf had to say when interviewed about the most important revisionist discoveries:

Graf: The archeological excavations on the site of the alleged “extermination camp” Belzec (Eastern Poland) and three documents which Mattogno and I found in Russian archives and which prove with absolute certainty that the morgues of the Birkenau crematoria could not possibly have been used as homicidal gas chambers, as the orthodox historians claim.

Ironically, the first of these two discoveries was made possible thanks to the abysmal stupidity of the exterminationists. In 2000, the Holocaust Memorial Museum and a similar Polish organization published a book about the excavations at Belzec (Andrzej Kola, Belzec. The Nazi camp for Jews in the Light of Archeological Sources. Excavations 1997-1999, Warsaw/Washington 2000). Kola pretended to have found material evidence corroborating that Belzec had indeed been an extermination camp. But as Carlo Mattogno brilliantly demonstrates in his book Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research and History (Theses & Dissertation Press, Chicago 2004), the results of the excavations conclusively show that only some thousand people perished at Belzec, while the orthodox historians claim 600.000 victims. The presence of human remains on the site of the camp can easily explained by two factors: In 1941, Belzec had been a very inhumanely ruled labor camp before becoming a transit camp in March 1942, and between March and December 1942, 434.000 Jews were deported to this camp before being transferred either into the occupied Eastern Territories or to labor camps in the Lublin district. (The figure of 434.000 results from a German document, the “Höfle telegram”, which is doubtless authentic but constitutes no evidence of mass murder, as David Irving mendaciously claims.) Unavoidably, a certain number of these 434.000 Jews must have died at Belzec. – Moreover the excavations showed that the two “gas chambers” described by witnesses never existed. By ordering these excavations and foolishly publishing their results, the Holocaust Memorial Museum and its Polish friends have furnished irrefutable evidence that Belzec was not an extermination camp.

Source: https://codoh.com/library/document/interview-graf-jurgen/en/
Archive: https://archive.vn/3jMAb


Read the Holocaust Handbooks, Kola's study has been dealt with in them:

Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Thomas Kues: The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt”—An Analysis and Refutation of Factitious “Evidence,” Deceptions and Flawed Argumentation of the “Holocaust Controversies” Bloggers http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar.pdf

Carlo Mattogno: Belzec—Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/09-b.pdf
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby Goethe » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:37 am)

gl0spana tells us:
witness testimony suggests at belzec most of the cremains of the victims were dumped in the graves. this was not the case at other camps like treblinka or auschwitz, where they are supposed to have been scattered in various places. Post war there have been two main studies at Belzec

Although it's never shown be actual fact, of course, here is where it's claimed that the human remains of about 875,000 Jews reside at Treblinka:
Image

Although it's never been shown be actual fact, of course, here is where the alleged remains of Jews who are alleged to have been gassed now reside at Auschwitz:
Image

Here is the result of an actual excavation at Sobibor, instead of the claimed 250,000, we see this, even the date & cause of death, nor ethnicity has been determined. What a preposterous, comical scam it all is.
Image

It goes without saying that gl0spana cannot show us any photos of any excavation which show the numbers that we would expect to see at these theatrical presentation sites.

And in spite of gl0spana's claim of "two main studies at Belzec", he cannot present any photos of Belzec which back up the ridiculous claim by those like britannica.com that claim at least 600,000 Jews are buried there.
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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:00 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Gl0spana shoots himself in the foot anyway. Why would the Germans have to actually uncover and photograph the pits? Why not just write about it? Why not just type it all up on pieces of paper and interview witnesses if that is sufficient enough to establish the existence of mass graves?


Too true. Could you imagine what people like Gl0spana and the 'historians" would say if the Germans did such a thing and tried to pass it off as evidence? They'd dismiss it in an instant and add it to the list of "nazi" fabrications and obfuscations they arbitrarily decide upon. The Germans would've been ruthlessly criticized for not abiding by the established guidelines. Yet, when it comes to the Holocaust, there are apparently no universal standards, if there were, the Holocaust would've crumbled like the house of cards it evidently is. The amount of leeway these hacks get to lie and distort evidence is yet another example of their hypocritical approach to historical research.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: Why it doesn't matter existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:07 am)

HMSendeavour wrote:How did the 400,000 figure even come about? Because, there is certainly no good proof for it, yet the affirmation of such a figure would suggest otherwise. You don't just pull a number out of thin air and then work backwards in an attempt to prove it.

Hoefle telegram gives a figure of 434,508 for Belzec.
But the telegram says nothing about extermination or mass murder. The Heofle telegram also has the same exact "1,274,166" figure as the Korherr report, which again does not say that these people were killed. Both of these documents have been discussed at length in other threads though, this one is about mass graves.
The 400k figure is certainly not based on any analysis of giant pits of human remains at Belzec.

What study? By whom? Where can this study be viewed? Anyway, I think you'll find most of this information addressed if you just check the relevant Holocaust handbooks. I would look for it, but "the 1946 study" isn't exactly an easy thing to search for.

Mattogno's book on Belzec cites it in chapter 4, "3.2. The Polish Findings of 1945"
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Re: Why it doesn't matter that existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby Hannover » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:17 am)

Lamprecht wrote:
HMSendeavour wrote:How did the 400,000 figure even come about? Because, there is certainly no good proof for it, yet the affirmation of such a figure would suggest otherwise. You don't just pull a number out of thin air and then work backwards in an attempt to prove it.

The 400k figure is certainly not based on any analysis of giant pits of human remains at Belzec.

Nor is the "at least 600,000 Jews" that britannica.com claims.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why it doesn't matter that existence of mass graves at Belzec cannot be proven

Postby HMSendeavour » 4 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:29 am)

Lamprecht wrote:The 400k figure is certainly not based on any analysis of giant pits of human remains at Belzec.


Yes indeed, this was the point I was making. Maybe I will revise my statement then? The number was pulled, not from thin air, but pulled from a document about transports and extrapolated by the Holocaust conspiracy theorists into a number for those allegedly "exterminated". My point still stands. You cannot work backwards from a figure that has no evidentiary basis. This is still a fact, because the exterminationists aren't talking about the evidence for transports, they're now talking about exterminations. So even though this 400,000 figure exists in a document, doesn't mean the 400,000 figure has a basis in evidence as it concerns exterminations. It is still, in a sense, plucked from thin air.

Lamprecht wrote:Mattogno's book on Belzec cites it in chapter 4, "3.2. The Polish Findings of 1945"


Yes. I wanted gl0spana to do the work himself and be more meticulous with his sources. If I went around saying "this is from a book by an Italian holocaust revisionist" you could eventually find what I'm referencing, but that doesn't mean I did a good job actually citing a source.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.


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