The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

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The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby gl0spana » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:49 pm)

A an example, I understand that you guys have debunked babi yar with air photos, witness reports, and the lack of "provable remains"

but has any revisionist touched on the existence of the 10 or so disparate documents which seemingly attest to the massacre? (20 here but around 10 are completely explicit) http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 29-30.html

I don't think anyone has

this would seem pretty convincing evidence to a lay person. revisionists are courageous if nothing else, so why haven't they addressed these many documents?

there is a broader question here as well, the existence of hundreds of documents* (beyond the EG reports) pertaining to shootings of jews in the east. many of these talk about clearly genocidal things like the mass killing of children and essential workers, something you guys don't believe in.

an example of an extremely damning document would be PS-3257 "The way these actions, which included men and old men, women, and children of all ages were carried out was horrible." This specific document is an example of one whose authenticity has not been seriously addressed.

the broader question is this, why are there so many fabricated documents about mass shootings, but so few explicitly concerning gas chambers at camps? I count only the franke gricksh report

on my twitter I answered this question from an exterminationist perspective: namely that the shootings in the east were logistically complex, involving coordinated actions from many execution groups. in addition these shootings were more "acceptable", since they could be lumped in with anti-partisan actions.

The death camps on the other hand were much simpler operation (in terms of coordinated action). No bureaucratic need existed for the germans to constantly detail how many people they killed in death camps and the specific method by which they were killed: poison gas. Death camps operated as "black boxes" into which Jews would enter but not exit. far more logistically challenging was the process of actually deporting jews to these camps, and ample documentation of this exists

When I challenged the deniers who I regularly talk to on twitter to come up with a "bureaucratic need" for constantly reporting on how many people were killed in death camps and the specific method, they were unable to.


*also intercepted radiograms by the british

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Hannover » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:20 pm)

Twitter has banned free speech, so you're not being factual.
And why do you continue to post about a 'h' topic you have already posted about?

Your questions have been covered here many times, see below.

And it's claimed by The Industry that there are enormous human remains at sites said to be precisely known.
No such remains exist.
i.e.:
The tale is that ca. '2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen',
So, is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?


see:
Another take down of alleged Babi Yar 'shooting of 33,771 Jews'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11768

yet another take down of "Holocaust by Bullets" / Tamo Kosto:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10315

Focused Thread: The so-called UKRAINIAN "holocaust by bullets":
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12800

Einsatzgruppen Map? / "Holocaust By Bullets":
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12145

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:38 pm)

gl0spana wrote:I don't think anyone has [...] this would seem pretty convincing evidence to a lay person. revisionists are courageous if nothing else, so why haven't they addressed these many documents?


Then you should know better. They have been addressed to various degrees, if you had bothered to check any of the Holocaust Handbooks, perhaps you'd be less ignorant. But I suppose you're just 'too lazy'.

gl0spana wrote:many of these talk about clearly genocidal things like the mass killing of children and essential workers, something you guys don't believe in.


You're lying. Otto Ohlendorf denied any charges of genocide but and he also spoke of the necessity, while brutal, of killing the families of partisans (see too) which was completely legal. You have blatantly lied by claiming that we "don't believe" this happened, even though back in August Lamprecht and I had a discussion with you about partisan killings, including women and children. If you recall this discussion mentioned the burning of a barn house which you claimed killed innocent Jews and was perpetrated by the Germans. This turned out to be untrue, as it was actually carried out by the Poles.

gl0spana wrote:an example of an extremely damning document would be PS-3257 "The way these actions, which included men and old men, women, and children of all ages were carried out was horrible." This specific document is an example of one whose authenticity has not been seriously addressed.


And yet it's not proof of the Holocaust just partisan killings and reprisals. This document has been addressed, which you'd know if you bothered to become familiar with any revisionist research. In the definitive refutation of the 'Holocaust Controversies' frauds, which has yet gone undisputed, the document was cited on a handful of occasions. Perhaps you ought to read the book yourself? It's also been mentioned in Mattogno's book on the Einsatzgruppen.

The problem remains, as Mattogno concludes:

To sum up, the only way to evaluate the reliability of the figures in the Incident Reports remains the examination of bodies and/or their destruction within the framework of the so-called “Aktion 1005,” which will be the subject of Part Two of the present study.

Carlo Mattogno, The Einsatzgruppen (Castle Hill Publishers, 2018), Pp. 273.


The bodies and graves do not exist, and the method of their destruction as is claimed is impossible, as Thomas Dalton and of course other revisionists like Mattogno have conclusively shown.

gl0spana wrote:from an exterminationist perspective: namely that the shootings in the east were logistically complex, involving coordinated actions from many execution groups. in addition these shootings were more "acceptable", since they could be lumped in with anti-partisan actions.
The death camps on the other hand were much simpler operation (in terms of coordinated action). No bureaucratic need existed for the germans to constantly detail how many people they killed in death camps and the specific method by which they were killed: poison gas. Death camps operated as "black boxes" into which Jews would enter but not exit. far more logistically challenging was the process of actually deporting jews to these camps, and ample documentation of this exists


You have no proof they were anything other than anti-partisan actions. Read Mattogno's book on the Einsatzgruppen if you can be bothered.

There are no death camps and nobody was killed with poison gas. This is a scientific fact. Stop making erroneous claims you have no evidence for based on claims that have been refuted for decades. Your ridiculous argument depends on the a priori that we pretend this even occurred. There is no documentation of people killed by gas, because it never happened, and it never happened because the alleged homicidal gas chambers had no no cyanide residue, no prussian blue, no way to introduce the gas into the alleged chamber by extracting it from the gypsum pellets, and no way pull it out. There were no air photos showing the burning of the huge amount of remains that would be necessary, and were claimed to have existed had there been such gassings. Not to mention the fact that the gas chamber had a swinging door among the many other incongruencies regarding the reconstructed gas chambers themselves. On this, read Germar Rudolf's chapter 'The Technique and Chemistry of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz' in 'Dissecting the Holocaust'.

And of course, the claims made by the Believers about body disposal have been refuted, and the revisionist refutation has gone unchallenged for more than 16 years:

I swiftly wrote a long and detailed rebuttal “Supplementary Response to John C. Zimmerman on his ‘Body Disposal at Auschwitz,’” in which I unmasked all of Zimmerman’s lies one by one. [...] At the end of October 2000, Zimmerman promised by e-mail that he would respond to my rebuttal within six months. Almost 16 years have passed by now, but John C. Zimmerman has remained silent.

In 2000 he published a book that contains various critiques against me, but they are a mere repetition of the lies contained in his articles mentioned above. He had nothing to say about my final rebuttal. His silence equals an unconditional surrender. It is his admission that his arguments were and remain unfounded and untenable.

Carlo Mattogno, "An Accountant Poses as Cremation Expert," Auschwitz Lies: Legends, Lies, and Prejudices on the Holocaust (Castle Hill Publishers, March 2017), Pp. 89.


Yet you'll still find ignorant believers trotting out Zimmerman's carcass like they're imitating Weekend at Bernie's. It's pathetic.

gl0spana wrote:When I challenged the deniers who I regularly talk to on twitter to come up with a "bureaucratic need" for constantly reporting on how many people were killed in death camps and the specific method, they were unable to.


Of the millions of documents released, there are none whatsoever that indicated anything odd was occurring at Auschwitz or anywhere else, nothing about gassings or Zyklon B. The 'Garrison and Headquarters Orders of the Auschwitz' outright contradict the alleged narrative. Keep in mind, these files were found in former Soviet archives because they'd been stolen and reported lost. That they contained nothing as to the alleged killing of any Jews, but extensive documentation on how the camp was run is very revealing. This is to say the documents we do have describe a regimented life style that couldn't possibly add up if there was some hidden extermination plan being carried out at the same time. The Believers, such as yourself, would need to prove it, and contend with these documents, not to mention the overwhelming scientific evidence against you that's just simply irrefutable.

What's really odd to me about what you're saying, is that you think these documents are incriminating, but you're also telling us there was no need to document the killings and methods. . . How does that work? As far as I can see, you're projecting the incriminating nature you want to believe these documents display, when in reality they're not particularly impressive whatsoever.

gl0spana wrote:*also intercepted radiograms by the british


Yes, Nicholas Kollerstrom (and David Irving) has evaluated these intercepts received by the British at the National Archives and shown that:

In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort – but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted. [...] The revealed information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.

[...]

In his new book Breaking the Spell, Dr. Kollerstrom shows that “witness statements” supporting the human gas chamber narrative clearly clash with the available scientific data. He juxtaposes the commonly accepted ideas about a Nazi extermination policy toward the Jews with a wide array of mostly unchallenged, but usually unmentioned evidence pointing in a quite different direction:

Zyklon B is a buzz word for the claimed Nazi mass murder, but all non-anecdotal evidence proves that this chemical was merely used as a pesticide in order to improve the inmates’ health and reduce, not increase, camp mortality.

The Auschwitz camp authorities kept meticulous records of who died in the camp and why. A statistical analysis of the data does not match the kind of data to be expected, if the widespread view of what transpired in that camp were true.

The UK’s intelligence decrypts prove that the German camp authorities were desperately trying to save their inmates’ lives.

Zyklon B applied in delousing chambers formed chemical compounds detectable to this day. No such compounds can be found, but ought to be expected, in the claimed homicidal gas chambers.

“Six Million Jews threatened or killed”: read 167 quotes from newspapers with that “news” spanning from 1900 to 1945, with a peak after World War ONE! Yes, one, not two!


Germany has paid compensation to millions of Nazi victims, and Israel has implicitly admitted that many million Jews survived the Holocaust. A British archaeological team looked for traces of the claimed 800,000 victims of the Treblinka camp—and came back empty-handed. The Auschwitz camp had for the inmates: a swimming pool, soccer games, theatre, library, choirs, orchestras, hospital with modern surgeries… Dr. Kollerstrom concludes that the history of the Nazi “Holocaust” has been written by the victors with ulterior motives and that this history is distorted, exaggerated and largely wrong. He asserts that this history is, in truth, a great lie that distorts our common perceived reality and misdirects human history to this very day.

Description of Kollerstrom's book 'Breaking the Spell: THe Holocaust, Myth & Reality'.


Carlo Mattogno has also discussed these intercepts at length in his recent book on the 'Making of the Auschwitz Myth'.

You've presented nothing new to revisionists Gl0spana, but perhaps the fullest extent of your own ignorance.
Last edited by HMSendeavour on Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:42 pm)

OP:
this would seem pretty convincing evidence to a lay person

That what, the Einsatzgruppen existed and shot people? That's not disputed.
Anything can type whatever they want on a piece of paper. Usually, a fake document is based on a real one with only a word or sentence changed, or a number inflated.

One document from your link says:
As a measure of retaliation for the arson at Kiev, all Jews were arrested and altogether 33,771 Jews were executed on 29 and 30 September.

This would be classified as a "partisan reprisal" and would therefore not itself be illegal. If there was an "exterminate all Jews" order, there would be no need for a justification here.

Another one says:
Several retaliatory measures were carried out during large scale actions... Even if about 75,000 Jews have [been] liquidated so far, it is clear that the solution of the Jewish question is not possible in this way.

Again, retaliatory which means it was not part of some "kill all Jews" policy. And the document additionally says that mass shootings are not a viable way to go about solving "the Jewish question."

Millions of European civilians died in WWII. Why is killing civilians with aerial bombs so morally different than shooting them?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:55 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Anything can type whatever they want on a piece of paper. Usually, a fake document is based on a real one with only a word or sentence changed, or a number inflated.


Seeing as some of these are Nuremberg documents the originals probably don't even exist. The documents submitted at Nuremberg were all certified copies of 'original' documents. These files are then not particularly conclusive because we're essentially forced to take the word of a group of people who's job it was to indict the Germans for war crimes. Hardly a trustworthy source. Not to mention the fact that without physical evidence these documents are pretty much elaborate testimonials.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Hannover » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:46 am)

While we know that anti terrorist / "partisan" executions legally occurred on both sides, it must also be stated any the document which says '33,771 or 75,000 Jews were shot at such & such location' are necessarily fraudulent. There is absolutely no proof of such large actions.
IOW there are no human remains to back up the claims, even though it is claimed that the remains do exist.

Recall that shyster Patrick Desbois of "Holocaust by Bullets" notoriety was not able to show the world human remains to match his preposterous claims. If what Desbois claimed was true we would be seeing thousands upon thousands of corpses, DNA testing, verification of grave contents, various forensic experts on hand with reports which could be reviewed, massive amounts of photos in situ, etc. IOW, a legitimate forensic excavation / exhumation. Instead we get desperately shady displays which do not stand-up to scientific and rational scrutiny. *

As for the alleged principal site mentioned, Babi Yar, there were attempts to excavte the claimed remains and behold, there were none.
see:
!! Excavation Result: No Human Remains of alleged 34,000 Jews as claimed at Babi Yar !! In fact, no remains period.':
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11314
also:
* Einsatzgruppen mass murder proof??? / Desbois:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8030
excerpt:
Hannover wrote:Desbois is a classic charlatan.

Please view:

'Shoah by Bullets: video tour ...'

The video concerns the alleged, but never proven, claims about German mass shootings around Kiev and especially, Babi Yar. At random I have outlined unfounded assertions and various points.

- Desbois say that 'the Germans wanted pictures for souvenirs'. He also says 'Germans wanted everyone to see the mass murders taking place'. So, how does that work with the standard storyline which says this was a top secret matter. And why would the German invite / allow witnesses and photos of what, if true, would a be vast war crime?

- Desbois says 'the Germans played music and partied while executing Jews'. Oh sure, I'm sure Wehrmacht rules of discipline allowed such occurrences, not.

- Desbois says Jewish law prevented him from excavating corpses, but he then shows us remains of seven excavated individuals which he claims are Jews, though he cannot confirm that they are Jews. They are not confirmed to have been killed by the Germans nor any of it's allies. They contradict his false narrative of not violating Jewish law concerning excavations, which has been debunked by yours truly at this forum (excavations are allowed). And considering the number alleged for Babi Yar is currently ca. 34,000 (some sources say 100,000), why can't those remains be shown? Instead we see seven highly questionable remains. Imagine, seven corpses found in a war zone. Seven corpses found in a region notorious for it's real, verified mass graves of those murdered by the Soviet NKVD.

But again, if Desbois claims there are mass graves galore, which he never shows, he is contradicting the standard storyline which states that the Germans, in an attempt to hide their alleged crimes, excavated all the alleged mass graves and burnt the remains on massive pyres ... which of course would leave behind massive amounts of charred remains, and enormous pits that could not be concealed even if filled in, yet none can be shown. What a mess the entire 'holocaust' fraud really is.

- The video shows a German machine gun that the Germans supposedly left behind and was excavated. Right, why would the Germans bury a valuable field piece rather than simply taking it with them? It's implied they buried it to avoid incrimination? But wait, they were not worried about incriminating themselves, they invited all the locals to gather, photograph, and witness the affair. Charlatan Desbois cannot keep his lies straight.

- The video shows German bullet shells. Wow, big deal. There was a war going on and the Germans did carry real bullets. BTW, the Soviets used German bullets in the mass murder of tens of thousands of captured Polish soldiers at and near the Katyn Forest. A heinous war crime now acknowledged by all parties, but for decades blamed on the Germans. Oops.

- Desbois is simply making unverifiable statements as he walks around this laughable, Potemkin Village of a 'museum' which presents no proof, but does have a lot of pictures captioned 'Jews walking to their death'. There are bizarre & wild claims which are not supported by any of the photos themselves,

We do see a photo of what looks like a public execution of criminals, with adults, children, photographers in attendance. Exactly what you would expect in the execution of criminals. There is zero proof that the executed are Jews, but of course they may have been. Jews did commit crimes which were legally punishable by death. Remember, executions of non-uniformed terrorists, aka: 'partisans' was legal under international law. Numerous Jews were involved with those illegal terrorist units.

- Desbois says 'the West' ignored the genocide'. No, 'the West' realized that Zionist propaganda was just that, propaganda.

- In this embarrassment of a 'museum' Desbois walks around numerous authoritative looking maps with numbers and claims about the Einsatzgruppen which are completely unsubstantiated. Perhaps the unsupportable numbers depicted on maps is convincing to the uneducated and uninformed, but to the rationally minded and informed they represent nothing more than empty and false depictions of Jewish supremacist propaganda.

- Desbois says 'all the mass murder activities were coordinated from Berlin even if not all the murderers were Germans. As usual, he offers not a shred of proof, he's merely reciting what he has been told to recite, or perhaps paid to recite.

- Desbois show us a picture of SS officer, Blobel, who was supposedly the main SS officer in all these alleged mass shootings into the non-existent pits. Blobel is said to have been responsible for digging up the remains and cremating them in order to hide the crimes for which Desbois claims the Germans invited the public to witness. Typical 'holocaust' logic in place again.
While Desbois claims to have located tons of mass graves, but never shows them, the contradicting storyline says Blobel hid everything. Blobel in captivity got in a real zinger:
Owing to the moving up of the front-line it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further south and east which had resulted from executions by the Einsatzgruppen.
So this contradicts the storyline which says Blobel obliterated the mass graves (which would not be possible anyway) and these non-hidden mass graves 'in the south & east' which were supposedly witnessed should be available for excavation. But the Jewish supremacists don't dare excavate and yet Desbois cannot show them to us. Again, the purveyors of the 'holocaust' nonsense have painted themselves into a corner and their only way out is to make scrutiny of the absurd and impossible story line illegal.

For more on the charlatan Desbois I recommend using our search function for : desbois ukraine
Also, this link recommended:
The Big Excuse: 'excavation & exhumation of Jews forbidden'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6817

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:49 am)

Checking through the numbers of alleged executed Jews claimed by the HC bloggers (33,771 and 35,000) and some of the sources used by them as well, I can confirm that they also appear in the relevant Holocaust handbooks. These figures and claims of theirs aren't unknown, and the photographs they depict are also present in Mattogno's study of the Einsatzgruppen.

Incident Report no. 97 and 106 are two of the sources cited by the bloggers, which have been addressed in 'Dissecting the Holocaust'.

In 'USSR no. 106' it's claimed the Jewish population of Kiev is 300,000:

Prior to the evacuation, about 175,000 but possibly as few as 160,000 Jews lived in Kiev. Yet Einsatzgruppen Incident Report No. 106 of October 7, 1941, which gives two different numbers for the Jewish death toll on two different pages (p. 13: 35,000, p. 15: 33,771) but again does not say where the presumed massacre happened, claims about the number of Jews residing in Kiev:

“The number of Jews allegedly amounts to 300,000.”


Germar Rudolf (editor.), Dissecting the Holocaust (Castle Hill Publishers, November 2019), Pp. 510.


But this is completely untenable, and the HC bloggers just totally ignore it instead choosing to cite 'USSR no. 97' to get their 150,000 population figure. The numerical incongruity of report 106 is significant and impactful on the alleged claims they're making:

The ‘precise’ figure of 33,771 murdered Jews stems from Incident Report 106 of October 7, 1941.3 In the following, we shall just briefly show why even the very few figures given in Incident Report 106 prove that what we have here are clumsy fabrications. Other evidence for the fabrication has been provided by Walendy.

[...]

it is an unforgivable mistake for experts to claim that there were about 300,000 Jews in Kiev, especially two-and-a-half weeks after that city had been occupied, by which time there would have been a relatively reliable overview of the situation.

140,256 Jews lived in Kiev in 1928-1931.100 It was a known fact that prior to the Second World War the Jewish population of the Ukraine had dropped by about one-third due to emigration to the less anti-Semitic northern and eastern regions of the Soviet Union;101 this rate was a little lower for Kiev due to the urbanization of the Jews. And it was also a known fact that the population of Kiev had shrunk from some 850,000 – 930,000 persons to about 305,000 due to evacuations. So if there had still been 300,000 Jews in Kiev on about October 7, then these ‘experts’ would have found practically no one in Kiev who was not Jewish – and it would not have taken experts to notice that.

Thus the “non-Jewish population of Kiev” which Incident Report 106 mentions as expecting the German authorities to take retaliatory measures due to the arson perpetrated by the Jews, would have consisted almost entirely of ghosts. And the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 5too, would have been conjuring up ghosts in speaking of non-Jewish parts of the Kiev population who helped the Jews to hide, or who wrote denunciatory letters by the bucketload.

The literature shows that fewer than 40,000 Jews, most primarily the elderly, remained in Kiev by the time the German forces arrived

Germar Rudolf (editor.), Dissecting the Holocaust (Castle Hill Publishers, November 2019), Pp. 532.


Therefore, report 106 cited by the HC bloggers to get the number of deaths they want, gets essential information wrong about the population of Kiev. Not to mention that there's a variety of implications made about the contribution of non-Jews to either conducting reprisals against them or helping them that would simply not be possible if we accept the population figures of this report.

Anyway, the alleged figure of 33,771 is discussed in Mattogno's book, just search through the book Gl0spana, and don't pretend it hasn't been addressed.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Archie » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:08 am)

the broader question is this, why are there so many fabricated documents about mass shootings, but so few explicitly concerning gas chambers at camps?


For the concentration camps, they already had a lot of good visuals. They had a full hour long propaganda film on the concentration camps. They had empty Zyklon cans. They had the piles of shoes. They had the ominous crematories and chimneys. With Einsatzgruppen they didn't have as much to work with. Without the documents (mostly coming from the Soviets) they would have only had a few confessions.

During the war the Soviets had committed themselves on a number of claims. They had made claims about Babi Yar in January 1942 (and other similar massacres) and they reiterated these claims in the fall of 1943 along with a very lame story about how the Germans had "destroyed all the evidence." They made claims about gas vans in 1943 at the Krasnodar and Kharkov trials. And most importantly they made claims about Katyn. In my mind these things in particular are what they had the most incentive to "prove" at Nuremberg. And notice that they didn't bother producing any documents for Katyn; rather, they simply wrote their own bogus "report" (USSR-54) much like they did for Auschwitz (USSR-8).

Another point I would make is that in contexts involving anyone other than the Nazis, high claimed body counts are often taken with a grain of salt as it's often assumed that armies boastfully exaggerate during war. That is, military units seem to have some tendency to overstate their "productivity."

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby borjastick » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:40 am)

the broader question is this, why are there so many fabricated documents about mass shootings, but so few explicitly concerning gas chambers at camps? I count only the franke gricksh report
gl0splug

The answer is very simple matey. With the gas chambers they had buildings and infrastructure around which it was easy to make claims such as 'the mass murder of jews was industrialised in these chambers of death' and then show a room which the naive general public would believe was where it happened, without questioning and without fear of contradiction of the news media.

Whereas with a field or wooded area they couldn't show anything, no bodies, no aspect of the claimed mass murder. Thus pointing at a largely pleasant field or wooded area and saying 'this is the location of the mass murder of 34,000 jews from XXXX town' wouldn't hold any credibility. Thus they concocted a story that the einstazgruppen went through every area seeking out and murdering jews in glades and pastures and then hid all evidence of their crimes.

The reality is that many jews were evacuated during the war period or expelled and thus afterwards, because of their absence, they could be claimed as victims of mass murder.
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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby EtienneSC » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:14 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Millions of European civilians died in WWII. Why is killing civilians with aerial bombs so morally different than shooting them?

Shooting civilians is morally different in several ways from bombing areas where civilians are present. Principally, dropping the bomb has many effects, e.g. on buildings, whereas shooting someone has only one effect and there can only be one immediate intention behind it. The very fact that you have to see the human being you are shooting gives it a different quality, perhaps not in terms of the moral rules at work, but in the personal quality of the experience and the consequences of that. This is not to say that there are not common qualities, but it is needless to overlook the differences.

The laws of war also treat them differently, as the doctrine of dual effect is more clearly applicable to bombing. The justifications are different, i.e. distressing a civilian population to bring the state of war to an end, as against deterring partisan activity against soldiers. Not better necessarily, but different.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:47 am)

EtienneSC wrote:Principally, dropping the bomb has many effects, e.g. on buildings, whereas shooting someone has only one effect and there can only be one immediate intention behind it.

Please note that prior to US military dropping an atomic bomb, leaflets were dropped in Japan (the "LeMay leaflets") with a list of cities warning Japanese civilians to flee them. The British also dropped leaflets over Germany, but from what I have seen they were not warning civilians (women, children, elderly) to leave cities to spare a horrible death, but to convince them that the war was hopeless, their cities have been bombed and will continue to be until they give up. Maybe there were some warning leaflets dropped before bombings in Germany, but I did not find any examples by searching whereas I found plenty of examples of the US doing this to Japan.

Image
Text + translation: http://archive.fo/gpgct

Villages in Eastern Europe also were encouraged/ordered by the Germans to set up defenses against terrorist attacks by partisans, who would often rampage through towns, raping women, shooting "Fascist collaborators," stealing livestock, and so on.

The laws of war also treat them differently, as the doctrine of dual effect is more clearly applicable to bombing.

Executions of civilians in reprisal actions at this time was legal; executions of POWs (uniformed combatants, not partisans) was not. So these reprisals were legal as was bombing cities.

The justifications are different, i.e. distressing a civilian population to bring the state of war to an end, as against deterring partisan activity against soldiers. Not better necessarily, but different.

So in one case, it is intended to coerce an official military to stop their attacks; but in the other, it is intended to coerce illegal terrorists to stop their attacks?
The justifications seem very similar. If you are in a war, a uniformed soldier shooting at you is just as dangerous as a partisan terrorist.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby gl0spana » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:07 pm)

Since I am very busy this week I will for now limit my answers to the most on topic points I can, namely related to the my claim that revisionists have ignored important documents and also the curious discrepancy between documentary evidence pertaining to gassing and shooting.

HMS, Lamprecht:

documents 3, 8, 9, 13, 14, 19, 20 are not part of the einsatzgruppen reports and have not been  debunked or even explained by revisionists

14 in particular describes the Jews getting tricked into believing in their resettlement and then being indiscriminately killed in a slaughter so ghastly in order to do it the executioners had to be numb with alcohol. Do you believe this happened?

"It is ordered that the Jews are to be "resettled". This is done in such a way that the Jews are ordered to gather in the following night with their best clothes and jewlry at collection places. No difference is made between classes, sex and age. They are then brought to a previously selected site outside the town. On the pretext that certain formalities are still to be fulfilled, they have to put aside their jewlry and clothes. They are taken off side the street and liquidated. The resulting situations are so shocking that they can not be described. The consequences for the German commandos are inevitable. In general, the execution can only be carried out under numbness with alcohol. A SD officer ordered to watch had to endure a nightmare of the most dreadful kind the following night according to his description."


How many of the above documents do you think have been fabricated in whole or part? The Germans were "bragging" about killing 30,000 people in two days?. Extrapolate that over 4 years and you get 18 million people 

------

I've searched mattogno's books for mention of PS-3257

He only mentions the bolded part of this excerpt, leaving out the rest of the document, which quite interestingly states that Jews were no danger to the German army and also that Jews who were assisting German war aims were widely killed.

Many cities had a percentage of Jews exceeding fifty percent. Only the rich Jews had fled from the German troops. The majority of Jews remained under German administration. The latter found the problem more complicated through the fact that these Jews represented almost the entire trade and even a part of the manpower in small and medium industries besides the business which had in part become superfluous as a direct or indirect result of the war. The elimination therefore necessarily had far-reaching economic consequences and even direct consequences for the armament industry (production for supplying the troops).

The attitude of the Jewish population was anxious-obliging from the beginning. They tried to avoid everything that might displease the German administration. That they hated the German administration and army inwardly goes without saying and cannot be surprising. However, there is no proof that Jewry as a whole or even to a greater part was implicated in acts of sabotage. Surely there were some terrorists or saboteurs among them just as among the Ukrainians. But it cannot be said that the Jews as such represented a danger to the German armed forces. The output produced by Jews who, of course, were prompted by nothing but the feeling of fear, was satisfactory to the troops and the German administration. The Jewish population remained temporarily unmolested shortly after the fighting. Only weeks, sometimes months later, specially detached formations of the order police executed a planned shooting of Jews. The action as a rule proceeded from east to west. It was done entirely in public with the use of the Ukrainian militia, and unfortunately in many instances also with members of the armed forces taking part voluntarily. The way these actions, which included men and old men, women, and children of all ages, were carried out was horrible. The great masses executed make this action more gigantic than any similar measure taken so far in the Soviet Union. So far about 150,000 to 200,000 Jews may have been executed in the part of the Ukraine belonging to the Reichskommissariat; no consideration was given to the interests of economy
.

-----

Borjas,

Apparently no physical evidence has ever been produced at the Reinhard camps, remains, gas chambers, or otherwise, yet almost 2 million are claimed to have been killed there. Documents would help here, and the almost complete lack thereof naturally is a major point of criticism for revisionists.

There are also many photographs of apparent shootings - even if fake, or having nothing to do with Jews or even Germans, these are convincing to most people. No such photographic evidence exists for gassing.

In addition gassing is much less conventional than shooting so burden of proof is automatically higher, requiring perhaps more evidence.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Breker » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:48 pm)

gl0spana:
documents 3, 8, 9, 13, 14, 19, 20 are not part of the einsatzgruppen reports and have not been debunked or even explained by revisionists

Incorrect. The fact that they make claims which cannot be proven absolutely does "debunk" them.
Imagine trying to convince a court of the validity of "documents" for which there was no verification of the claimed contents of the presented documents. Come to think of it, we don't recall that these "documents" were ever submitted in a trial.

gl0spana:
How many of the above documents do you think have been fabricated in whole or part? The Germans were "bragging" about killing 30,000 people in two days?. Extrapolate that over 4 years and you get 18 million people

All that do not not meet the requirements that we just mentioned.
"30,000 people in two days" for which no physical evidence, human remains exist. Impossible, mate. Yep, try that in court.

gl0spana again:
There are also many photographs of apparent shootings - even if fake, or having nothing to do with Jews or even Germans, these are convincing to most people. No such photographic evidence exists for gassing.

Please show us those shooting "photographs". Perhaps they look like this previously posted, hilariously fake image said to be of Babi Yar.
Image
caption: "Photo taken from the body of a dead German officer killed in Russia, showing a Nazi firing squad shooting Jews in the back as they sit beside their own mass grave, in Babi Yar, Kiev, 1942."

Mr, gl0soana, you seem conflicted, which is somewhat understandable since the indoctrination of us all has been constant and of course there is the fact that revisionists are demonized for speaking the truth.
But I will say that sooner or later you have to grow up and accept the fact that what we've all been told is nothing more than classic, hateful, interest serving propaganda.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:56 pm)

gl0spana wrote:HMS, Lamprecht:

documents 3, 8, 9, 13, 14, 19, 20 are not part of the einsatzgruppen reports and have not been  debunked or even explained by revisionists

14 in particular describes the Jews getting tricked into believing in their resettlement and then being indiscriminately killed in a slaughter so ghastly in order to do it the executioners had to be numb with alcohol. Do you believe this happened?

I quoted two of the documents (I didn't go and read every single one, I just skimmed around) that explicitly stated that the alleged shooting in question was a reprisal. It provided justification for the shooting that was not
"We are shooting these Jews solely on the basis of them being Jews, as part of our 'kill all Jews' policy"
It was instead
"We are shooting them as a retaliation [reprisal] for an act of terrorism"

You may consider such a thing evil, immoral, and tactically questionable but it was neither illegal nor unprecedented. Those documents are in fact not evidence for some policy of genocide but it is actually evidence against such a policy.

One of the 2 documents even said that:
"the solution of the Jewish question is not possible in this way" (this way = mass shooting)
which is basically saying:
"mass shootings of Jewish civilians is not a viable solution to the Jewish question"

I can not be certain about the accuracy of alleged death tolls typed on a paper, especially when the alleged huge mass graves have not been forensically examined. If multiple documents state the exact same number, they are not confirming one another. They are just reporting a number they all received from the same singular source; that source very well could have been lying/exaggerating. If 33 thousand were killed in one spot then there should be huge mass graves full of bodies from this shooting.

How many of the above documents do you think have been fabricated in whole or part?

I don't have any opinion on that

The Germans were "bragging" about killing 30,000 people in two days?

If that is something to brag about, then you now understand why they would have wanted to inflate the figures so heavily.
But if they really wanted to brag about something, they should have bragged about making the human remains of 33 thousand magically disappear.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:46 pm)

Gl0spana:
documents 3, 8, 9, 13, 14, 19, 20

3 - This one is a "wall poster" in Russian that is ordering Jews to go some place.

Image

Anyone could have typed it

8 - This one says 34,000 were killed, but it does not say why -- at least in the transcript on the web page which is incomplete

9 - This one agrees with the other 2 that I quoted. It says that a fire destroyed important parts of the town, causing 50,000 people to be homeless. In retaliation for "the obvious sabotage" it says 35,000 Jews were killed. This is a reprisal, an act of retaliation. If there was a "kill all Jews" order they would have already killed them; they would not have waited for a terrorist attack.

13 - It does not provide a reason, but it is just a tiny snippet quote from a document

14 - Again, no reason is provided

19 - Same, no reason is provided

20 - A reason is provided here. It says that the "Jews were arrested in Kiev as retaliation for the arson there" - so it is saying that it was a response to a terrorist attack, not a standard operation that fell under some imaginary "kill all jews" policy.

Gl0spana:
The Germans were "bragging" about killing 30,000 people in two days?. Extrapolate that over 4 years and you get 18 million people

Are you suggesting that cities under German occupation with tens of thousands of Jews were experiencing serious terrorist attacks every 2 days for a period of over 4 years?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


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