The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Archie » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:57 pm)

gl0spana wrote:My goal is not to argue in this thread about these documents' legitimacy, rather that one of two things are probably true from a revisionist perspective

a) most of these "incriminating" documents are real and on the whole do not present anything suggestive of genocide

b) most of these documents are fake, and therefore you have to explain why so many exist, when so few were fabricated for mass gassings, something with 0 physical evidence and completely unprecedented in human history. The only explicit document is FG report. Why didn't they fabricate a similar amount of documents to evidence an altogether more unbelievable story?


Needless to say, whether real or fabricated, these documents perhaps pose an insurmountable problem, owing mainly to just their sheer number. This is the point I was driving at it with my topic post, in addition to a (less important) critique of how revisionists consistently ignore many of the most damning einsatzgruppen documents.


Documents can be altered, modified, doctored. They don't have to be fabricated from scratch. Many of the IMT/NMT documents are copies of copies, have been retyped, etc. Additionally I would again mention the possibility of the reports being numerically inaccurate. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this as a possibility.

Whatever the case, I do not see why it would pose an "insurmountable problem" for revisionists. The Einsatzgruppen has never been the key battleground. The main reason they've tried to pivot to this "Holocaust by Bullets" is because the main pillars of the Holocaust--the Six Million, the Final Solution, the Concentration Camps, the Gas Chambers--all got demolished by revisionists in the 70s and 80s. They are trying to move the goalposts and turn it into a debate about whether some Jews were killed. No. The story is six million etc and that's what needs to be defended. But they can't so they try to talk about more marginal points where they feel they can put together some sort of case. Einsatzgruppen, euthanasia, etc.

In Hoax of the Twentieth Century, Einsatzgruppen is discussed in a chapter called "Et Cetera." As evident from the chapter title, Butz rightly treats the topic as the secondary matter that it is.

The remaining part of the extermination legend is that the Einsatzgruppen exterminated Russian Jews in gasmobiles and by mass shootings. This is the only part of the legend which contains a particle of truth.

The main evidence for exterminations is a huge amount of documentary evidence which is simply funny.

As we see here, contrary to what you say, even at this early point in 1976, Butz acknowledges the "huge" amount of documentary evidence. And he points out that this is "funny" because it's so anomalous compared to the glaring lack of documentation for all other aspects of the Holocaust. His treatment of the issue is fairly brief and he ultimately dismisses the documents as likely forgeries, largely for circumstantial reasons. I do not think Butz by any means definitively proves his case here, but his general conclusion is correct. Some number killed in the East. Not part of any broader extermination program. Mostly counter-partisan action though with some women and children killed. The exact numbers are not possible to determine but probably well short of what's claimed.

In terms of the big picture, the claim is that Einsatzgruppen and other shootings accounted for around 1,500,000 Jewish deaths. Can we be confident in such a figure on the basis of the documentary evidence? In my opinion, no. At best we have some number (a few hundred thousand?) of deaths "on paper," with a lot of that paper coming to us via the USSR. There appears to be no justification for 1.5M other than the circular argument that such a figure is required to even begin to approach the 6M. But the physical evidence doesn't support this, nor is it very believable on practical grounds (the number of personnel, the amount of territory covered, etc).

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Breker » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:47 am)

Mr. Archie, allow me to raise some issues.

Butz does not need to "prove his case", he does not make the allegations.
As has been pointed out, standards of jurisprudence places the onus on the accusers to prove their case, not the other way around,

We also need to realize that women, and yes, children, fought in the illegal "partisans". Photos of armed women & children "partisans" are legion.

The actual total claimed of the Einsatzgruppen often goes way beyond your 1.500.000 Jews, which makes the complete lack of supporting human remains look even more ridiculous. Your "a few hundred thousand" is heretofore not supportable, and even that is a rather massive number of people which, again, is not backed up by proof.

Arthur Butz is correct in describing the fakery about Einsatzgruppen as "funny". We see no reason to make concessions when the evidence does not warrant it.

Having said all that, you do make some excellent points, particularly as to why they are trying to pivot away from the bizarre, fantastical 'gas chambers'.
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Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby gl0spana » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:31 am)

Question for all of you guys:

Roundabout guess, numerically, how many Einstazgruppen / Eastern execution documents are forged, fabricated, manipulated in any way?

How many documents related to death camps other than FG report?

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby borjastick » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:20 am)

'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this as a possibility.
Archie

Because that's all they've got. They cling on to these dodgy documents and reports because without them they are totally sunk, as in Titanic.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Hannover » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:08 am)

gl0spana wrote:Question for all of you guys:

Roundabout guess, numerically, how many Einstazgruppen / Eastern execution documents are forged, fabricated, manipulated in any way?

How many documents related to death camps other than FG report?

So, how many documents are there? And what does each one say that leads you to believe in them?

You're asking a silly question since each "document" when presented has so far been shown to be fraudulent. and or not supportive of your belief,

You have tried to claim 'this one, this one, & this one prove my belief in the alleged extermination of Jews', yet when reviewed none of them do.

Imagine in a real / legit court of law where someone claims that millions of people were murdered and dumped into allegedly known mass graves, but then could not produce the claimed mass graves and the alleged contents. They would be laughed out of that court.

I also see that you're curiously trying to interject the subject of the alleged and uttterly discredited "death camps" in a thread about the Einsatzgruppen.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:18 am)

gl0spana wrote:Question for all of you guys:

Roundabout guess, numerically, how many Einstazgruppen / Eastern execution documents are forged, fabricated, manipulated in any way?

How many documents related to death camps other than FG report?

You already asked a very similar question previously and I would say I have no opinion on that.
A document can be perfectly genuine while describing something that did not happen. I gave the example of you writing about yourself experiencing a UFO abduction and then myself writing a 'report' describing what you said as if it truly happened. My 'report' would not have to be a forgery, fabrication, or manipulation in order for the contents to be describing a fictitious event.

These Babi Yar documents you present from HC Blog are mostly hearsay, people saying "I read in a report that..." and so on.

Typing up a document is incredibly easy, as is selectively destroying certain ones. The "Allies" had control of all of the documents and we know that some among them were perfectly OK with manipulating or forging documents.
Hans Frank voluntarily turned over his diaries (40+ volumes) to the US Army after the war. However, only selective excerpts (269 out of over 10,000 pages) were published at the trial and he was not allowed to refer to any other entries. After the Wannsee conference (20 Jan 1942) Frank makes no mention of exterminating Jews in his diary, and only mentions Jews once in an innocuous context. It is most likely that he did continue to discuss Jews but these statements were exonerating and contradicted the "extermination" claims so they were not included in the trial.
At Nuremberg, Frank complained about the selective quoting of his diaries. He first pleaded "not guilty" and said that he had no knowledge of any extermination. He said that he questioned Hitler and Himmler on "rumors about the extermination of the Jews" and he was told by both that "Jews were merely being brought to the East." (He later stated, after being subjected to 5 months of trial hearings and being duped by Rudolf Hoess' "confessions," that he did believe Jews were exterminated).

That is just one example of the strategies employed at the Nuremberg show trials. It was a kangaroo court. Go ahead and use documents from it if you wish, but that alone is not very strong evidence. And if you find another document saying the same thing, but it is merely reporting on what the previous document said, that's not a form of additional evidence strengthening your case. It's just a repetition of the same type of evidence that you already provided. That would be like if Hannover read the 'report' I wrote on you being abducted by a UFO and wrote his own saying the same thing. Then, HMS read that report and wrote another of the same. And so it would continue until there are 10 separate 'reports' describing a gl0spana UFO abduction: yet, it never actually happened in the first place.

The real question is, what allegedly incriminating documents do you have that you can provide actual, verifiable evidence to substantiate the claims in? My guess is, after over 7 decades, a big "ZERO."
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Hannover » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:42 am)

I ask gl0spana, 'numerically, how many witchcraft documents are forged, fabricated, manipulated in any way?

The fact is that there is a mountain of "documentary" evidence and eyewitness accounts proving that witchcraft & sorcery is fact.

To not accept the truth of witchcraft is therefore insulting and disrespectful to "survivors / eyewitnesses" and their families.
Doubting witchcraft is hate speech.

Witchcraft Documents, Testimony, Eyewitnesses:
http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/home.html

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby gl0spana » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:51 pm)

'numerically, how many witchcraft documents are forged, fabricated, manipulated in any way?


next to none probably. just because they state things that are false doesn't mean they've been they've been fabricated/manipulated and passed off as authentic period documents (this is what I meant in case that wasn't clear)

Lamprecht "I have no opinion". I think this is a dodge. Being well read on the subject you should be able to come up with something. You've spent much more time on the holocaust than I have (I first started researching seriously summer of 2020) so you have no excuse here. I can provide an opinion-based answer to any holocaust related question you ask.

The real question is, what allegedly incriminating documents do you have that you can provide actual, verifiable evidence to substantiate the claims in? My guess is, after over 7 decades, a big "ZERO."


Yes zero, because everything boils down to the apparent lack of physical evidence. Clearly the documentary record is irrelevant for you guys. If a secret nazi trove was unearthed containing a hundred or a thousand completely "authentic seeming" documents pertaining to gassing, methods of such, death books, etc you wouldn't blink.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:13 pm)

gl0spana wrote:Yes zero, because everything boils down to the apparent lack of physical evidence. Clearly the documentary record is irrelevant for you guys. If a secret nazi trove was unearthed containing a hundred or a thousand completely "authentic seeming" documents pertaining to gassing, methods of such, death books, etc you wouldn't blink.


Documents are important insofar as what they say can be proven (beyond reasonable doubt). The fact is none of these documents accord with the conventional Holocaust narrative, and only make sense when placed in the context of revisionism. The documentary and physical (or lack thereof) evidence all goes in one direction, towards revisionism as well. You simply cannot substantiate the murder of millions based on nothing but documents with inaccurate figures (that you want us to arbitrarily multiply) and eyewitness testimony, which is what you're essentially asking us to do.

Such a demand is unreasonable. There is just no evidence to support the conventional Holocaust story, and since it is the people who propagate that story who have a problem with the state of the evidence, then it is them who must be reasonable and back down from their original position and concede that the Holocaust is a phoney story. You cannot insolently cling to it because you want it to be true, which is what it seems like you're doing Gl0spana. You want the Holocaust story to be true, so you don't care what you have to accept in order to make it so, even if it requires a great deal of faith on your part.


There are no documents on gassings, because it's been scientifically proven no gassings occurred, or could have occurred. We have death books with methods listed, none of which mention gassings or extraordinarily high figures in regards to deaths, although this is only for registered prisoners:

The fates of the Jews deported from France can be traced quite well by means of the Auschwitz Death Books (Sterbebücher), which are documents kept by the Auschwitz camp administration listing all registered inmates who died in the camp. Some of this data has been published (Staatliches Museum… 1995). Although not all volumes have so far been found or released – the series stops at the end of 1943 – they still allow us to gain an insight into the fates of many of these Jews. They tell us that a frightening number of them died in a typhus epidemic which broke out in the camp in spring of 1942. The majority of the Jews deported after the outbreak of that epidemic were not registered in that camp, presumably because the camp, with its catastrophic hygienic conditions, was unable to accept further transports on a large scale, so that those Jews who had been taken to Auschwitz were immediately moved further east or to other camps (Aynat 1994 & 1998b).

L: What is the total number of deaths listed in those Death Books?

R:Some 69,000. But remember that the early months of the camp, the year 1944 and the month of the camp’s liberation (January 1945) are not included.

L: That would amount to an extrapolated figure of perhaps 120,000 victims – a far cry from the million or so Jewish victims at Auschwitz we have been hearing of for decades.

R:Now be careful! The Death Books recorded only the deaths of registered detainees. Deportees allegedly led directly into the gas chambers are said to have never been registered at all and would, if that were true, not appear in any of those records. I will come back a little later to this particular topic.

[...]

As is German habit, everything that happened with those registered prisoners was meticulously recorded. And if any of those prisoners died, a bureaucratic avalanche was unleashed: forms had to be filled out, registries updated, and reports written and sent to all sorts of authorities. Hence, the death of every registered prisoner that ever died in Auschwitz left a thick paper trail. One item of this paper trail were the so-called Sterbebücher (death books), in which every prisoner ever registered at Auschwitz was entered when he died during his incarceration in that camp. But these death books had vanished after the war. At the beginning of 1990 the media reported that the Soviets had found them at war’s end and had locked them away in a secret archive, but were finally willing to release them to the Tracing Center of the International Red Cross in the small town of Arolsen, Germany. According to these media reports, the fates of 74,000 registered prisoners who died at Auschwitz had been meticulously entered in these death books (Moskau… 1990). About five years later, the Red Cross published excerpts from these death books as a series of books (Staatliches Museum… 1995). It turned out that the fates of 68,751 registered prisoners who died at Auschwitz as of the end of 1943 are entered in the death books. The volumes for 1944 have so far not been found – or maybe someone is hiding them because their contents are too embarrassing.

L: Why would that be?

R: Well, it is no secret that the Auschwitz death rate was horrifying in 1942 and 1943 due to raging epidemics, but this was pretty much under control by 1944. It can therefore be assumed that the death rate dropped precipitously during that year, which wouldn’t jibe well with the claim that hundreds of thousands of Hungarian and other Jews were exterminated in 1944 (cf. Boisdefeu 2009, pp. 185-190)

Germar Rudolf, Lectures on the Holocaust: Controversial Issues Cross-Examined (Castle Hill Publishers, Third Expanded Edition, July 2017), Pp. 41, 240.


In fact a decade or so ago a trove of millions of German documents (spanning 16 miles if laid end to end) were released in Bad Arolsen for research purposes. The media initially reported that the "Holocaust deniers" would be 'debunked once and for all!' Yet over time they were forced to admit there were no documents that proved the Germans had gassed anyone, or carried out a policy of extermination:

the Archival manager of Arolsen has given an answer to this question, concerning the number deaths recorded as having been due to cyanide poisoning. He replied:

"unfortunately, we cannot reference a single document listing the death of a detainee due to gassing by Zyklon-B. As a rule, the Nazis gave other causes of death for inmates, who perished in the concentration camps.

With kind regards,

U. Jost, Archival Manager"


Nicholas Kollerstrom, School Trips to Auschwitz. link | archive


Here are some articles regarding death tolls and these documents:

Germar Rudolf, Holocaust Victims: A Statistical Analysis | Archive

Arthur Butz, Deaths in German Concentration Camps | Archive

Also see pages 46-47 of Rudolf's 'Lectures on the Holocaust' in which he goes over these numbers and the problems with them much more briefly.

Nonetheless, the real death tolls are substantially lower than even a million. That much seems clear.

See too:

Image
Germar Rudolf, Ernst Böhm: Garrison and Headquarters Orders of the Auschwitz Concentration Camp—A Critically Commented Selection
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Hannover » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:57 am)

gl0spana wrote:Yes zero, because everything boils down to the apparent lack of physical evidence. Clearly the documentary record is irrelevant for you guys. If a secret nazi trove was unearthed containing a hundred or a thousand completely "authentic seeming" documents pertaining to gassing, methods of such, death books, etc you wouldn't blink.

Revisionists openly acknowledge the death books from Auschwitz / Birkenau, which speak of nothing 'holocaust' like.

You are welcomed to start threads on any / each "document" which you feel supports "gassing, methods of such". Why don't you do so?

So of course, there is nothing to "blink" about.

I asked you:
'numerically, how many witchcraft documents are forged, fabricated, manipulated in any way?

you said:
next to none probably. just because they state things that are false doesn't mean they've been they've been fabricated/manipulated and passed off as authentic period documents (this is what I meant in case that wasn't clear)

Wrong. That's exactly what documents which contain "confessions, eyewitness statements", etc. to witchcraft are. The contents of such statements are lies, thereby making any such documents which contain those lies forgeries. Just like those who make impossible, unfounded, unsupportable 'holocaust' claims, those making such statements know they were lying. Such "documents" have been dishonestly forged.

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:27 am)

gl0spana wrote:Lamprecht "I have no opinion". I think this is a dodge. Being well read on the subject you should be able to come up with something. You've spent much more time on the holocaust than I have (I first started researching seriously summer of 2020) so you have no excuse here. I can provide an opinion-based answer to any holocaust related question you ask.

I have already gone through many of the documents you provided in the blog post link, showing that they often contradict your silly storyline and the ones that don't simply refuse to provide the alleged justification for the claimed shooting.

It is not a dodge, your accusation is quite evidently a scheme to shift the burden of proof away from yourself to us. As both you and I have pointed out, a document can be perfectly genuine [not manipulated or a forgery] but describing a fictitious event and/or using inaccurate figures.

Yes zero, because everything boils down to the apparent lack of physical evidence.

Well of course it does because we have not yet invented some sort of time machine. So we must focus on the concept of "Falsifiability."

Falsifiability means that for any hypothesis to have credence, it must be inherently disprovable.
In the case of
"These specific Jews who went to [specific location] 70+ years ago with [specific location 2] as an intermediate step"
it would be very difficult to prove if there are no relevant records and they were able to move around. But if that changes to
"They went to [specific location] and never left, and remain there to this day in some form"
it is now an easily testable theory. And that is precisely what is asserted by the "Holocaust" narrative. But the alleged pits are not shown to us, despite being in supposedly known locations. All we are given is pathetic excuses -- all the while those who speak out in Poland, Germany, France, etc (and maybe soon to be an additional half dozen or so) are fined and imprisoned for it.

You could disprove "Holocaust denial" by showing the physical evidence. The documents and testimony do not go only one way, not even what you have posted here does.

BTW, Katyn - which the USSR blamed on the Germans, had an actual forensic evaluation. Later, US government documents were released showing that the US helped the Soviets cover it up:

US 'helped Russia cover up Second World War Katyn Forest massacre'
https://archive.is/StI4m

Clearly the documentary record is irrelevant for you guys.

Really? The documentary record consistently states the "Final Solution" and "Aktion Reinhardt" were not extermination policies. They overwhelmingly state that the alleged homicidal gas chambers were anything but,

You have simply posted a blog link, written by someone else, with a collection of documents saying basically all the same thing, yes, they are different documents, but they are reporting on an alleged event that they heard from probably just 1 or 2 original reports. If the report author was not even a witness, what additional value does it have compared to if I wrote a report on your claimed UFO abductions stories?

As I quoted in many instances, HC blog reports provide a justification for the executions - also know as reprisals - which contradicts your orthodox H. narrative.

And also, when you made a thread previously and I went through and selected and posted multiple German documents that I found over the years that I believed were specifically relevant to your OP question. You just ignored them all! And you kept asking the same question over and over again, worded a bit differently, hoping for another answer. :lol:
There are other threads as well devoted to compiling documents that contradict the standard narrative.

If a secret nazi trove was unearthed containing a hundred or a thousand completely "authentic seeming" documents pertaining to gassing, methods of such, death books, etc you wouldn't blink.

Well, how convenient would that be? I'd be skeptical from the outset, but I mean if they could take the information in these documents and show that the physical/material evidence is consistent with it, I'd accept them.

The one that has been dodging is you. Maybe if you addressed my arguments I would feel more obliged to answer your silly questions. Any one of us here can post revisionist articles citing numerous documents arguing against the "Holocaust" conspiracy theory and demand you give some estimate about which ones are bogus, which doesn't really matter all that much anyway.

The burden of proof is on you, as your hypothesis can be proven/disproven with physical evidence but exterminationists not only refuse to but prevent anyone else from attempting to do so, often imprisoning them in the process.

From the rules, BTW:
No 'dodging'. When questioned or challenged on claims, or assertions you make in a thread you must respond directly / specifically by providing the information requested in the challenge or you must leave the topic.

Did I ever make the claim that I had any idea what % of those HC blog documents (or any sub-set of H documents) were fabrications? :?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: The question of the abundant "evidence" for genocide by bullets / Babi Yar etc.

Postby Wachtman » 3 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:58 am)

I'm not sure if I've followed, but a professor wrote a detailed letter to an Army General, and Yad Vashem is posting an English translation. I would expect to see Wehrmacht orders, SS orders, local orders to Ukrainian police commanders, and dozens of purchasing contracts for all of that local labor involved in the mass murder and burial of 21,000 persons! (in all of the local languages involved)

I'm again calling this an 'overwhelming' body of evidence, proving the crime beyond a shadow of a doubt, which is quite a bit more extensive than one letter.


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