What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

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borjastick
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What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby borjastick » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:05 am)

What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

As we see from time to time here we get visited by believers who use obtuse language and obfuscation to not answer what appear to be very easy to understand questions. I know there are web sites which these guys frequent such as (correct me if I'm wrong here) holocaust controversies and rodoh. I don't go to either of these, or any other believer web sites because life's too short and I just don't have the time.

So I ask what is the single most compelling piece of evidence at those and any other believer sites that they say proves the holocaust? There must be repeated 'facts' they claim as proof of mass murder by gas and mass shootings. Can anyone compile a top three or top five list and post it here but not with reams of blurb, just the headline please. Then we can discuss the list and see how it all adds up.

I thank you...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Archie
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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Archie » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:32 pm)

The main argument is "just trust us." It's the classic "anti-conspiracy" argument: There's no way to pull off a hoax like this and get all the historians etc to go along with it.

For direct evidence, probably the most commonly cited things are 1) Himmler's Posen speech, 2) Goebbel's Diary, 3) The Vergasungskeller document, 4) Korherr Report + Hoefle Telegram. The last one is used to establish the Reinhardt deportations. Then they will say there's no evidence of resettlement (no outbound train records, etc). This leads to the where-did-they-go argument.

On the surface, I would say the Hoess confessions would seem to be pretty important evidence. We have the commandant of Auschwitz confessing to running an extermination facility. But they don't cite this as much as you'd think anymore because they know they are vulnerable to counterarguments.

I wrote about the general approaches in the opposition literature here:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13394

For the most part, they don't try to make a direct case or address the major revisionist points. Some, like Lipstadt, focus almost entirely on questioning people's motivations. Holocaust Controversies mostly tries to drag you down into a morass of details. They will confidently present you with some lengthy analysis that is meant to give the impression that the issue has been thoroughly addressed. Revisionists are also accused of doing this but the difference is that Mattogno's voluminous writings actually check out and make sense whereas the HC stuff usually does not. I think this approach is best described as "bluffing."

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Hektor » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:05 pm)

Archie wrote:The main argument is "just trust us." It's the classic "anti-conspiracy" argument: There's no way to pull off a hoax like this and get all the historians etc to go along with it.
.....


I've heard that "Imagine how many people must be in on this" argument also several times.
It's however rather funny itself in itself, since the Holocaust would be sort of a "conspiracy theory" itself. Even that must have been in the know, did dispute knowledge. Those that claim to know, also claimed special knowledge of something highly secret. That this stems from rumours and conflates several other issues is usually not considered, then.

The historian's argument is one of consensus, the "All reputable historians agree" argument. When consensus is invoked, this usually means that they don't have any real hard evidence for their case. Then you get, "but where did all them Jews go then, if they weren't gassed" - That's an argument from ignorance.

If they are so serious and certain of that matter and ALLIED govs, Jews and others pretend to be. Why didn't they launch a general investigation into this, lead by independent experts? They then could present any hard evidence they find, not only circumstantial stuff, they use in innuendo persuasion tactics.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Zulu » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:19 pm)

Archie wrote:The main argument is "just trust us." It's the classic "anti-conspiracy" argument: There's no way to pull off a hoax like this and get all the historians etc to go along with it.

For direct evidence, probably the most commonly cited things are ...
3) The Vergasungskeller document,

This document is actually a proof that BIschoff wanted to buy morgues (Leichenkeller) at Krema II.
If not, where was he supposed to store corpses when the temporary situation (Leichenkeller nor ready yet) was ended?
Many people seems to miss the context of that letter:
1- The morgues are not ready for the reasons explained on the letter.
2.- TEMPORARILY, corpses will be stored at another room called Vergasungskeller wherever or whatever it is.
3- When the temporary situation is ended, the morgues will be ready to store corpses as planed.
This letter makes no sense if BIschoff does not consider the 2 morgues as rooms to store corpses (as planed and as indicated on the drawings). That invalidates any other consideration.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Hannover » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:48 pm)

Archie mentions:
1) Himmler's Posen speech, 2) Goebbel's Diary, 3) The Vergasungskeller document, 4) Korherr Report + Hoefle Telegram.


All of which have been thoroughly discredited at CODOH and elsewhere, it's not even close.

To believe in the 'holocaust', one must want or need to believe in the 'holocaust'.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby borjastick » 1 month 1 week ago (Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:06 am)

Based on the above comments thus far it seems to me the believer websites don't have a case for it happening they rely on the law and commonly accepted wisdom that it did happen and thus it cannot be contested.

Also that when confronted and questioned by anyone with a decent knowledge of the subject they fold up and cry because they simply cannot refute what we say with hard fact and evidence.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 1 week ago (Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:41 am)

One great strategy is to turn the "Holocaust" into something that it was not, encompass any suffering felt by a European Jew in the period between Hitler's rise to power and the end of WW2 in Europe. Sometimes also the T4 euthanasia program is grouped as part of the "Holocaust" when it was not. I wrote about this here:

The power of the "Denier" label and people's confusion about the "Holocaust"
viewtopic.php?t=12923

Lipstadt famously said the only way "Deniers" could be correct is if every "survivor" was lying. This is obvious nonsense, but the implication here is that something like Anne Frank being sent to Auschwitz then Bergen-Belsen and dying of a disease is somehow part of the "Holocaust" when in fact it contradicts the orthodox narrative because women and children were all supposed to be gassed at Auschwitz, which was allegedly an "extermination camp."
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Monty » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:12 am)

It’s not meant to be proven, it’s part of a belief system. Rather like Greta who got everyone, even the UN Council, to believe the world was going to end in eight years, or more recently that the flu was going to kill millions and a paper mask could protect the wearer from an airborne virus.

One of my favorites was Irving who toured Auschwitz in the Soviet era. He asked the guide who obviously wasn’t the brightest bunny why the chimney looked new. She replied that it had been built after the war. When he asked why, she told him that’s what it would have looked like had it been a gas chamber! It works because most people don’t question, they believe and when it’s said often enough it becomes a fact.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Turpitz » 1 month 5 days ago (Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:58 am)

What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?


During the twenty-years I have been looking into this subject I can honestly say that I have not seen the slightest evidence for it having happened. Mind you, If anyone has any to show me I would be extremely interested in seeing it.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby borjastick » 1 month 5 days ago (Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:26 am)

Turpitz wrote:
What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?


During the twenty-years I have been looking into this subject I can honestly say that I have not seen the slightest evidence for it having happened. Mind you, If anyone has any to show me I would be extremely interested in seeing it.


I totally agree with you but my point is rather what do THEY claim is the golden bullet, the gem and the nugget that from their point of view proves it happened?

Like you I've been on this quest for about twenty years and I keep expecting to find something that I have missed, perhaps because it is so obvious, to prove it. That gem should be well known to the Believers and so it should be easy to find. But it isn't...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Wachtman » 1 month 5 days ago (Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:16 am)

I think their golden nugget might be the filmed footage of the bulldozer plowing bodies into a pit, at Bergen-Belsen: After years of study and thought, I understand there's nothing solid in terms of evidence to prove that between 6 million and 11 million persons were murdered by German soldiers during World War II, and this forum has done an excellent job dispelling all the myths which are still promulgated by those who make a lot of money form Holocaust awareness and Holocaust education.

For I long time, no matter what I believed, I was very haunted by the images of the Belsen films, and some of what is probably the same filming which was used in "Night and Fog". I believe the reason is that these images have profound shock value on virtually any human being who sees them, and my best guess is that psychiatrists and psychologists guided the film makers into producing these scenes with the specific goal of making lay persons believe that they were viewing irrefutable and overwhelming evidence of the alleged crime, without the majority of these persons ever taking time to ponder the true nature of the events, or the real timelines, or ever doubting the accusations implied by these scenes.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Archie » 1 month 5 days ago (Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:11 pm)

From what I've seen, the holocaust historians do not claim to have a single "smoking gun" proof for the Holocaust. Famously, there's no Hitler order, nor are there any explicit documents establishing an extermination or mass gassing program. Trials generally do try to establish and prove facts, but at Nuremberg much of what we now call the Holocaust was more or less accepted by judicial notice. The primary evidence was the statement from Hoess, along with the Soviet "investigation" of Auschwitz. There was very little presented on the Reinhardt camps. Later trials like Eichmann and the West German trials in the 60s were very heavy on emotion-laden survivor witnesses. Holocaust historians generally have never bothered trying to prove the Holocaust; rather, they have formed a narrative mostly based on war crimes trials and heavily dependent on postwar testimony. There has only been some attempt to do this in response to the revisionist literature.

Pressac admits that he has no smoking gun. He presents a series of documents that contain "traces" or "slips" that he says when taken together are solid evidence of the Holocaust (or, more specifically, mass gassing at Auschwitz).

In the absence of any “direct”, i.e. palpable, indisputable and evident proof (lacking so far as we know at present) such as a photograph of people killed by a toxic gas in an enclosed space that can be perfectly located and identified, or of a label on a Krematorium drawing of a “Gaskammer um Juden zu vergiften / gas chamber for poisoning Jews” an “indirect” proof may suffice and be valid. By “indirect”, proof, I mean a German document that does not state in black and white that a gas chamber is for HOMICIDAL purposes, but one containing evidence that logically it is impossible for it to be anything else.


Van Pelt, borrowing heavily from Pressac, made essentially the same arguments at the Irving-Lipstadt trial and referred to a "convergence of evidence" supporting the Auschwitz story.

https://www.hdot.org/judge/

Michael Shermer also made a convergence-of-evidence type argument, although not primarily with the Pressac documents.

The Holocaust was not a single event. The Holocaust was thousands of events in tens of thousands of places and is proved by millions of bits of data that converge on one conclusion. The Holocaust cannot be disproved by minor errors or inconsistencies here and there, for the simple reason that it was never proved by these lone bits of data in the first place.


What Shermer does is he takes weak evidence but tries to "make it up on volume" by presenting a lot of it.

https://www.historiography-project.com/misc/geniebusters/shermers-18-bits.php

If you examine the testimonies in detail, what you will find is that some of them converge on some points but they also often have major divergences and contradictions. Another problem is that many of the points of "convergence" are known to be false. For example, consider the numerous testimonies of huge flames blazing continuously out of the tops of chimneys or Hoess confessing to 3M being killed at Auschwitz, along with Pery Broad, a figure consistent with the Soviet 4M through the end of the war.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Hektor » 1 month 5 days ago (Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:52 pm)

Archie wrote:.....
What Shermer does is he takes weak evidence but tries to "make it up on volume" by presenting a lot of it.

https://www.historiography-project.com/misc/geniebusters/shermers-18-bits.php

If you examine the testimonies in detail, what you will find is that some of them converge on some points but they also often have major divergences and contradictions. Another problem is that many of the points of "convergence" are known to be false. For example, consider the numerous testimonies of huge flames blazing continuously out of the tops of chimneys or Hoess confessing to 3M being killed at Auschwitz, along with Pery Broad, a figure consistent with the Soviet 4M through the end of the war.


So there is some convergence of false evidence or made up testimony.

I think the gassing types and the overall timing of the gassing procedure from entering to exiting via the chimney is also an example of that.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby Hannover » 1 month 5 days ago (Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:58 pm)

Hektor stated:
I think the gassing types and the overall timing of the gassing procedure from entering to exiting via the chimney is also an example of that.

I've posted this previously, but it certainly reveals the folly of the "gas chambers" claims:
For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: What is the single best piece of evidence FOR the holocaust having happened?

Postby borjastick » 1 month 4 days ago (Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:05 am)

The Holocaust was not a single event. The Holocaust was thousands of events in tens of thousands of places and is proved by millions of bits of data that converge on one conclusion. The Holocaust cannot be disproved by minor errors or inconsistencies here and there, for the simple reason that it was never proved by these lone bits of data in the first place.
From Archie's post with my emphasis

Well actually it was definitely not in tens of thousands of places matey. The huge bulk of the claimed deaths of jews in the holocaust happened in just six places which are well known and exist to this day, and no evidence of said mass murder has ever been found, nor have they found a working gas chamber.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


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