What is and what ain't

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TMoran
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What is and what ain't

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:21 pm)

When figuring out what's true or likely it matters quite often what isn't or wasn't as much as what's said.

According to the Holocaust accounts the poison 'gas' was introduced by way of dropping or lowering in fumigation pellets and waiting for them to evaporate the lethal agent suspended in the solid.

The reason the stuff was there in the first place of course was so they could funigate clothes, bedding and buildings against Typhus carrying lice. The Allies used DDT against the common and rampant threat.

How or why the initiators and perpetrators of the story fell on saying the pellets were dropped in through holes in roofs is anyones guess. Probably because they had testimonies from such people a Hoess, commandant of Auchwitz who was 'inticed' into making a confession and his saying they dropped in crystals.

The big what isn't is the Germans had a very efficient way of converting and introducing the lethal agent in the Zyklon B pellets into fumigation chambers in a gaseous state. They used pellets in the first place because it was less dangerous than using a liguid form.

The device was simple. A hot air blower, a box and some ducting. Put the pellets in the box, blow hot air through the pellets thereby evaporating the lethal agent and on through the ducting into the fumigation chambers.

Once the intial confessions said something about how the 'gas' was introduced into the alleged gas chambers everyone else had to follow with the same story and the real sensible thing never made it into the story.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:15 pm)

So true. One simple fib that flubs up the story greatly. As if Germany wasn't full of Nobel prize winning chemists who couldn't figure out anything better than a slow gradual build-up of HCN that takes hours. Yet at the time they've figured out how to make the first jet fuel on the planet.

Either that or put in enough so that it builds up fast. But then has to evaporate 10 times more gas over hours before it's all evaporated. A jacuzzi full of water to get enough steam that a boiling pot could create, but then you have to let the entire jacuzzi evaporate before you can go near it.

I've heard of "no holes, no holocaust" how about "no heater, no holocaust."

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:17 pm)

And why use HCN, which was too valuable as an insectiside?
They had ample stocks of Sarin and Tabun; and the factories to produce them.
There isn't even a single mention of an experiment on the use of these extremely
effective neuro-gases tried on concentration camp inmates.
Weren't they interested to test the lethality of these weapons on real human beings which were to be gassed anyway?
I guess these brutal beasts had got mixed up their priorities again.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:34 pm)

kk pondered:

And why use HCN, which was too valuable as an insectiside? They had ample stocks of Sarin and Tabun; and the factories to produce them.

There isn't even a single mention of an experiment on the use of these extremely effective neuro-gases tried on concentration camp inmates.

Weren't they interested to test the lethality of these weapons on real human beings which were to be gassed anyway?

=============================================

Good point. Though I have seen people ask why the Germans wouldn't have used other poisons they had which were for the explicit purpose of killing human beings that's a good twist on it about why there are no reports of the Germans using human beings as test subjects. Evidently the perpetrators of the Evil German campaign didn't think of it.

About ten years ago there was a report in the New York Times about some 200,000 tons of toxic chemicals captured by the Allies which they dumped into the North Sea. Seems just one or two tons of that would have been enough to kill the Jews.

No need to say too much about the 200,000 tons currently sitting there ready to start leaking into the ecological format. Most people would be able to think up the probable ensuing scenarios.

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:36 pm)

Well, they were idiots after all.
I think Sarin and Tabun were much safer agents for annihilation .
There were also safe filters developed for the gas masks deployed
by the army.( Wehrmacht)
Nothing like the inherent uncertainty with HCN.

Silly Nazis!

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:00 pm)

By the way, 200000 TONS is a wild exaggeration!
2000 tons would have been enough.
For all purposes...

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:51 am)

As to the idea the Germans used HCN fumigation pellets instead of other more efficient methods they already had available kk concludes:

'Silly Nazis!'

I used to post an article titled - 'Stupid Germans' and then list a whole bunch of idiotic Holocaust claims which if true would have indicated the Germans would have to have been total dunces. I would conclude with a comment on how it all seems so daffy and someone(s) had to take responsibility for the Holocaust nonsense.




kk also expressed doubt about the reported 200,000 tons of captured chemical weapons dumped in the North Sea by the Allies:
'By the way, 200000 TONS is a wild exaggeration! 2000 tons would have been enough. For all purposes...'

===

It seemed like a lot to me too when I read it. Then again maybe it said 200,000 pounds and I recalled it wrong or the writer got it mixed up. Hopefully it was an exaggeration or mistake even though 2000 tons is still a huge menace.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:26 am)

Zyklon-B is a fumigant, an insecticide; nerve gasses are chemical weapons for killing people.
"A factory for production of this first nerve agent was built and a total of 12 000 tonnes of tabun were produced during the years three years (1942-1945). At the end of the second world war the Allies seized large quantities of this nerve agent and other nerve agents that Schrader and his co-workers has synthesised. They synthesised about 2 000 new organo-phosphorus compounds, including sarin (1938). The third of the "classic" nerve agents, soman, was first produced in 1944. These three nerve agents are known as G agents in the American nomenclature. The manufacture of sarin never started properly and up to 1945 only about 0.5 tonne [1000 lbs.] of this nerve agent was produced in a pilot plant."


If the intent were to kill several million Jews with gas then these nerve gases would have been the choice. They could have easily been shipped to Auschwitz.

Details can be found here:
http://www.opcw.org/about-chemical-weap ... ve-agents/

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:32 pm)

Hannover wrote:Zyklon-B is a fumigant, an insecticide; nerve gasses are chemical weapons for killing people.

Nerve gasses would have involved a major cleanup problem.

Zyklon-B using deadly hydrocyanic acid would not pose a toxic cleanup problem once the insecticide granules fully outgassed--or if a Degesch type apparatus was used (and they were not according to the blueprints) because this "Kreislauf" or recirculation process minimized superfluous poison and heated and uniformly mixed the air, thus minimizing secondary contamination (and consequently minimizing any hot spots on wet surfaces like corpses if this had been done). Instead we get roof vents and silly hollow insertion columns to address this technical problem, but that is not necessarily consistent with the eyewitness testimony and the gassing times. Btw, carbon monoxide would have been even easier to use than HCN and it is fairly easy and cheap to generate.

Again, nerve gases would have involved some serious problems.

:D

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:39 pm)

Again, nerve gases would have involved some serious problems.


What problems?
Lack of atropin injections in case of an emergency?
Could you be more specific , please?

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:59 pm)

kk wrote:
Scott wrote:Again, nerve gases would have involved some serious problems.

What problems? Lack of atropin injections in case of an emergency? Could you be more specific , please?

Just look at the complexity of American gaschamber designs and see how elaborate they are. And this is with generating HCN gas, which is a fairly straightforward process with a chemical that has a fairly low molecular weight and good evaporative characteristics--and it is very cheap, a simple cyanide salt and sulfuric acid.

With nerve gases you have different vaporization and persistence depending on the type, and you have to meter the proper dosage accurately, and you must have elaborate cleanup procedures, since you would be left with highly contaminated bodies to handle. You would probably have to steam-clean the chamber with chemicals after each use, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

HCN and CO and quite deadly when inhaled, and there is simply no need to use something that is more toxic.

The reason that other gases (actually aerosols) are used on the battlefield is because of the difficulty of spreading the poison widely in the open air and having it persist and making it require difficult cleanup procedures. Chemical warfare works best on targets like airfields, marshalling yards and supply depots that are easily disrupted, rather than against troops in the open for this reason.

If you have to use a chemical warfare agent, then bottled liquid chlorine gas would be cheap, relatively easy to ventilate, and simple gas masks would provide good protection, which all makes it obsolete as a war gas for these reasons.

With nerve agents you would need whole-body chemical suits for the Sonderkommando to wear when handling the bodies, and probably oxygen tanks like firemen wear, not just protective masks.

The idea of using war gasses is ridiculous. The Germans may have tested some of their chemical warfare agents on condemned prisoners on a small scale, although there are no accounts of this that I know of. Animal testing would suffice anyway; the main thing to test would not be toxicity, which would already be known from its discovery and manufacture, but other factors like dispersion and persistence in the field, and especially the efficacy of treatments like atropine when administered in the field, and whether gassed soldiers would be able to administer these effectively and so on. Modern autoinjectors have a tranquilizer in addition to the atropine to calm jittery troops, as well as some other chemicals that work against Soman, which is not as responsive to atropine, IIRC.

The gas that the Germans would have used, if they had killed people with military gases (other than chlorine) would be Tabun nerve agent, since it was the only nerve agent in large supply. There was only about a half-ton of Sarin available because of its difficulty in manufacture, and Soman was still in the laboratory stage. There were tons of Tabun and Mustard (or vessicant) gases available, but there is absolutely no reason to use these more dicey chemical nerve or blister agents when HCN (or better yet CO) is cheap to generate and highly effective.

Yes, Zyklon-B was somewhat expensive and in high demand, but that was because it was made for fumigation in a buffered format with an inert agent to slow evaporation--and it had a limited shelf life. Cyanide salts and acid, however, are very cheap--although CO generated from wood or coal or even burning trash would be even cheaper and easier to use, and also involving no cleanup problems like an American execution (which uses HCN gas generation).

With Degesch equipment, Zyklon-B would have been child's play to use for mass gassings. If the Germans had really used homicidal gaschambers they would have either resembled their existing Degesch fumigation chambers on a larger scale, or used carbon monoxide generated from wood or coal, as were available in the hundreds of thousands, such as attached to the truck in the photo below being examined by Hitler.

The Germans would have employed engineers who knew what they were doing, such as Kammler and Bischoff, instead of "corporals with chisels" to dump insecticide into basements from the roof. That engineers built the crematoria does not mean that they built these structures to be gaschambers, and the evidence shows that they were not. They do not resemble Degesch fumigators because they do not recirculate heated air; they just provide some ventilation that is normal for a morgue.

:D

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Last edited by Scott on Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:40 am)

Btw, carbon monoxide would have been even easier to use than HCN and it is fairly easy and cheap to generate.


Also true!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:48 am)

I'm not sure I buy Scott's reasoning.
Some points:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7050/

All nerve agents belong chemically to the group of organo-phosphorus compounds. ** They are stable and easily dispersed, highly toxic and have rapid effects both when absorbed through the skin and via respiration. Nerve agents can be manufactured by means of fairly simple chemical techniques. The raw materials are inexpensive and generally readily available. **

Nerve gasses on the whole tend not to be gasses at all but a fine suspension of volatile liquids in air. This actually makes them just as effective as a gas but ** easier to store and to disperse ** making them a far better weapon.

All decontamination is based on one or more of the following principles:

to destroy CW agents by chemically modifying them (destruction),
to physically remove CW agents by absorption, washing or evaporation,
to physically screen-off the CW agent so that it causes no damage.

** Most nerve agents can be destroyed by means of suitable chemicals. **
Some chemicals are effective against practically all types of substances. However, such chemicals may be unsuitable for use in certain conditions since they corrode, etch or erode the surface. Sodium hydroxide dissolved in organic solvent breaks down most substances but should not be used in decontaminating skin other than in extreme emergencies when alternative means are not available.

Should the Germans have wanted to efficiently kill Jews, then I see no reason why nerve gasses would not have been more effective and just as easy to control ... vs. the hours long outgassing of Zyklon-B, even if the alleged gassings had been done like the delousing of clothing. There still would be the continued outgassing and the problems that production, handing, and sheer volume of Zyklon-B required. If we keep in mind the numbers of alleged gassees vs. the timeframe claimed, then nerve gas wins hands down over Zyklon-B. IOW, the benefits of nerve gas outweigh those of Zyklon-B, their negative traits are no more than those of Zyklon-B and manageable with prepared methods.

But let's keep it all in perspective, there is no credible evidence for homicidal gassings via any substance or method. That's the bottom line here.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:47 am)

Scott had suggested:
'Btw, carbon monoxide would have been even easier to use than HCN and it is fairly easy and cheap to generate.'

==============

Carbon monoxide is extremely dangerous stuff and is easy and inexpensive to generate. Then too there would be very little needed to clear the areas (alleged gas chambers). But, alas, most of the gas chamber tales tell us about Diesel engines being used and there are no cases of anyone being over-come in the short term from Diesel fumes.

With the tales of fumigation pellets and Diesel fumes it's obvious there was a little tongue in cheek involved when the story was being put together. The story was never intended to hold together over the long run like it has.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:05 am)

Another war gas I forgot to mention would be bottled phosgene, but I don't see any advantage here either.

In any case, the nerve agents are actually liquids (aerosols) not gases.

From a Google search on nerve gases:

The four nerve agents, GA [Tabun], GB [Sarin], GD [Soman], and VX are liquid at room temperature; therefore “nerve gas” is a misnomer.

And they are not very soluble in water, except for Sarin. Spraying the victims with a solution of cold water and Sarin might be doable for a gaschamber design, followed by a bleach and water solution. But this is fairly complicated compared to designs that would use HCN or CO, which have low molecular weights.

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:D


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