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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:42 pm)

Scott, you must have missed this:
Nerve gasses on the whole tend not to be gasses at all but a fine suspension of volatile liquids in air. ** This actually makes them just as effective as a gas but easier to store and to disperse ** making them a far better weapon.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:44 pm)

So there would need to be some kind of complicated pumping method to meter and atomize the proper dose. Then there would have to be a cleanup mechanism such as spraying a hypochlorite solution. And then the bodies would have to be handled with personnel in full-body chemical suits and probably wearing oxygen tanks.

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:55 pm)

No more complicated (but yet much faster and cheaper) than dealing with Zyklon-B ... which would involve quite an elaborate procedure as you know.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:12 pm)

Well, the Degesch fumigators were not that complicated, just a provision to heat air, which blows through a basket containing Zyklon-B poured from a large can. The whole unit could look like an airconditioner mounted on top of a concrete room like LK-1, with a gastight door. A valve would duct the air to recirculate in one direction and in another direction vent the air out through a chimney and induct fresh air in. That's it--a days work by somebody who installs heating, ventilating and airconditioning equipment. This is exactly what the railroad car fumigators were, shown below. But there was none of that at the crematorias and nothing like that has ever been alleged.

:D

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Postby The_Skunk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:14 pm)

One of the biggest problems is people can't fathom why the Jew would make this Holocaust up.

Most people see Jews as Jerry Seinfelds - They don't realize Jews are from Russia and were behind communism.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:45 pm)

Scott:

No one questions that Zyklon could be used (hell, Jews could have been drowned by pumping water into the alleged chambers too), but Zyklon's continued outgassing, slower speed, higher volume, and expense would render it less desirable than nerve agents in my opinion.

The only thing I think we'll agree upon here is that the gassings stories are patently absurd.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:36 pm)

In spite of any photos of fumigation chambers and chemical equations ala Scott the simple alternative to the Holocaust 'facts' are a gasoline engine with its exhaust connected to ducts into chambers.

Start engine.

Turn off engine.

Open doors.

I don't have the exact reference right here it being on another computer but there was a report about case histories of persons either being overcome in a short period of time or killed while using pressure washers powered by 9 to 11 horse power gasoline engines to clean out swine birthing areas which had twice the volume as Holocaust gas chambers - and- were ventilated.

Mass extermination by way of gasoline exhaust -

Start up engine.

Turn off engine.

Open doors.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:17 pm)

According to Enrique Aynat in "Die Berichte des polnischen Widerstands über die Gaskammern von Auschwitz (1941-1944): [The Reports of the Polish Resistance about the Gas Chambers of Auschwitz (1941-1944), VffG 2/2004, the Polish underground reported during the war the use of combat gas for the gassing of camp inmates in Auschwitz.

Soviet and Polish authorities decided after the war to continue the swindel of the homicidal gas chambers, but to replace the non-existing combat gas in Auschwitz with the fumigant Zyklon B.

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:43 pm)

Now here's the ultimate. Could Zyklon-B do this? Yikes!

It's claimed there were gas chambers on wheels which dumped their victims directly into burning pits ... AND ... delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves.

source:
Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen
Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit. (note 271), p. 438.

Question this and you will go to jail in Europe or Canada.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:09 am)

Well, a Degesch fumigator had a complete in-out process time for clothes of about an hour. There is no reason that it would take less time to "process" humans.

In fact, they would all probably be unconscious within five minutes when most of the gas was released from the Zyklon carrier on account of the hot air blowing through it. Everybody would be brain dead in twenty minutes or less.

A railway fumigator completely recirculated the air in about two minutes (35 exchanges per hour) and that was only half of what the clothing fumigators did, about an air exhange every minute (70 exchanges per hour). Hydrogen cyanide causes unconsciousness quite rapidly in high concentrations, but of course death would take longer 15-20 minutes normally. Even if using nerve agents would be quicker, the cleanup would not be.

CO from gasoline engines would work, and that is what has been alleged at Sobibor and Chelmno. In the United States gasoline engines have been used to euthanize dogs and cats, but this practice has been stopped because the heat from the exhaust might cause considerable distress before death, unless there is some means provided for cooling it before blowing it into the gaschamber (which is already provided for by the gaskühler on a wood-gas generator).

Of course diesel engines and insecticide through roof traps is absurd. Yes, we can agree on that.

:D
Last edited by Scott on Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:49 pm)

Scott said:
Well, a Degesch fumigator had a complete in-out process time for clothes of about an hour.

And that's much too slow for the numbers/timeframe alleged. The outgassing of Zyklon continues for hours and the bodies would need to be decontaminated for removal, we're not talking about clothes here. Add that to the inexpensive nature of nerve gasses and their lower volume and you have a much more efficient method via nerve gas.

I have seen no reason to claim the clean-up of nerve gasses is lengthier than the hours long outgassing and clean-up of Zyklon. Ofcourse, preparations for nerve gas clean-up would be necessary. It would certainly be faster than sitting around hours and waiting for Zyklon to outgas and the bodies to be decontaminated for removal to the crematoria. Not to mention claimed ventilation of Zyklon gas into the general camp area. Nerve agents, not being true gas, would alleviate much of that problem.

According to the dumb story we would have had thousands of Jews constantly arriving and standing about awaiting their turn for the gas chambers while Hans & Fritz sat around and waited for Zyklon to finish it's hours long process.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:12 pm)

With the Degesch-type fumigators you don't have to wait for hours for the cyanide to degas, just a few minutes. And you don't need very much because you get a uniform dosage without waste.

With nerve agents, however, you still need to hose every body down with bleach using guys in full-bodied chemical suits and probably oxygen tanks, and that is after whose knows how much ventilation. Even in American gaschambers, which involve huge overdoses of HCN, the body has to be scrubbed down with ammonia, and we are not talking about nerve agents, which are extremely hazardous.

And I'm not talking about dumping Zyklon through the ceiling in this thread; we agree that this is technically absurd and doesn't square with the testimony. Dr. Bendel said 2-4 minutes, for example, in the Tesch trial.

In this thread all I am saying is that nerve agents would be too complicated technically to use for executions, as least on a large scale, nor would they be cheaper than Zyklon. The Degesch fumigators didn't use very much Zyklon anyway. And even if Zyklon was too expensive or unavailable, gas generation of either HCN with a cheap cyanide salt and acid or CO generation using burning wood would still be a possibility for engineers. If we had to use a war-gas for some reason then bottled liquid chlorine or phosgene would be the trick.

My point is that the German engineers did not do any of this, which is not too complicated at all. But nerve agents would not have been a viable alternative, in my opinion, because that would require some elaborate engineering.

Just look at the difference in toxicity of HCN on the skin vs. Tabun or Sarin if you still don't believe me. A Degesch type Zyklon-B fumigation barn or something involving CO would involve no cleanup.

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:27 pm)

Nerve gas:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the Nazis actually using the gas.

Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective that top poison gas researchers predict they eventually will cease to be a war threat.

"Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective ... "
http://www.afscme.org/health/bio-chem13.htm
Precautions for Nerve Agents

Similar precautions are necessary for all of these nerve agents. The protective measures include using appropriate personal protective equipment. Contaminated clothing needs to be removed, bagged and seal. The skin should be decontaminated by washing it twice with large amounts of soap and water. Measures also need to be taken to prevent secondary exposure when attending to others that have already been exposed. These agents can cause exposure when they evaporate from contaminated clothing. Health care workers and others exposed to a contaminated victim can be protected by removing, bagging, and sealing the victim's clothing, and washing the victim's skin twice with large amounts of soap and water.

"Soap and water"


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Scott
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:53 pm)

These gases aren't much of a military threat as long as the enemy can retaliate somehow, which is why they were not used in WWII. As I said, the main value of chemical warfare is to contaminate (and therefore disrupt) key targets like marshalling and rail yards, airfields, harbors, etc. rather than against troops (especially if reasonably effective antidotes and protective suits are available).

So the engineering problem here, if one wanted to construct a method of killing masses of prisoners using nerve agents, would be to disperse a metered dose to each person without necessitating much cleanup or hot spots.

If a single drop will kill then that presents a challenge in dispersal and cleanup. The reason that the Tokyo subway terrorist attack in 1995 did not kill many people (only 11) was because the Sarin was not widely dispersed into a gas and those who were injured (ca. 5,500) had access to medical treatment of course.

Sarin dissolves well in cold water, so it seems to me that some kind of gaschamber with a shower that sprays contaminated water could be used, followed by a warm hypochlorite spray for decontamination. Suited workers wearing oxygen tanks would then remove the bodies unless the chamber has an agitation cycle like a washing machine. Why don't we add tipping floors too.

It still seems a bit far-fetched and complicated to me compared to Degesch type Zyklon equipment or carbon monoxide generation.

:D

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:00 pm)

Well, I'm very contented that a couple of rhetorical questions sparked such an
interresting conversation!
However:
1. Phosgene has in 'low' doses a pronounced delay effect, but this is measured
in many (up to 36) hours. Not the ideal agent for gassing the victims and then
lead them to the cremation pits. I don't know of any other war gas that has
such an effect.
2. Mustard gas or Levicite would have been unlikely tools for mass murder
in the third Reich, for the simple reason that Hitler himself got a dose of
Yperite in the last days of WW1.He was blinded and in heavy pain for weeks
afterwards. I can't imagine Hitler making a decision like that.



3.Most of the objections on the use of nerve gases in the"crematoria" I find
objectionable. With these superhuman 'Sonderkommandos' working in the
"gas chambers", who could enter a chamber full of still fumigating Zyklon
B pellets(without gas masks and protective clothing) and eating, smocking
and drinking while handling fresh corpses full with HCN...
Well these people would inhale Tabun and think it is french shampagne.
4.Houmor aside, my real question still stands unanswered:
"Why the hell did the Nazis not test their newly manufactured nerve
gasses on humans? Testing them on pigs is not the same thing.
They had so many potential 'test subjects' that were to be gassed
anyway! 6000000 of them!"
Last edited by kk on Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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