No Massgraves

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Hektor
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Re:

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:30 am)

max wrote:....

Image

Jewish men are forced by Waffen-SS troops and SD officers to dig their own grave before being executed.

Date: 1942
Locale: USSR
Photographer: Unknown
Credit: State Archives of the Russian Federation, courtesy of USHMM Photo Archives
Copyright: Public Domain
...

That, now removed, picture was identical with the following one:
Image
As one can see to the caption to the right on this page:
http://www2.dsu.nodak.edu/users/dmeier/ ... obile.html

USHM claims this was taken in the USSR 1942. Well, Wiki got the same picture:
Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EG_A_ ... y_1941.JPG
And according to them it's taken in "Šiauliai, Lithuania,July 1941"

Which one is false? Are they perhaps both false? Note that wikipedia peddles it as "evidence for genocide".
But what does the picture show anyway? Men digging a trench. Does that mean anyone was killed? No, that's just an innuendo.
And then we even haven't discussed, if that is an authentic picture.

But let's give them that it was for an execution. That Partisans and their helpers were executed isn't what is in dispute. One just has to object to the habit of selling this to us as "genocide".

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby cold beer » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:21 am)

Maybe they're required to work in unison, they're all loading their shovels therefore you don't see any dirt coming out of the hole.
The figure second from the left is definitely not in a digging stance, his arms aren't even close to being positioned in a way where he could be digging.

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Re:

Postby cold beer » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:29 am)

Independent Thinker wrote:You will have to do an investigation yourself and prove that the Soviet report was totally wrong, or at least show that the document was forged and the witnesses were lying or someone tortured them. That's a lot of work for you.

That's absurd, the burden of proof is clearly on those making these claims.

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby borjastick » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:52 am)

Independent Thinker seems to think that evidential proof and reasonable requests for it are unnecessary and indeed it might be rude and impertinent to ask for such stuff. Sure on the odd occasion we find a murder case proven without a body, but this isn't a missing body it is missing millions of bodies.

Further there is a lack of forensics based against colossal claims like Babi Yar as just one example. If I went into a Police station and claimed a multiple murder was committed in my locality I would be required to furnish some proof and the Police would send in scientists and forensics experts. The holohoax management team seem oblivious to the normal rules of proof required, they make amazing claims as do the dozens of ridiculous witness claims.

The picture we are discussing is somewhat a bit part in the greater discussion, as for Russia's involvement in the hoax it is huge as proved by CW Porter and others.

So when one is looking for Independent Thinking perhaps one should come down in favour of us revisionists...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Re:

Postby laapatti » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:57 am)

Hektor wrote:
USHM claims this was taken in the USSR 1942. Well, Wiki got the same picture:
Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EG_A_ ... y_1941.JPG
And according to them it's taken in "Šiauliai, Lithuania,July 1941"


Yad Vashem has one overexposed photo which perhaps is from the same series, if authentic, at least the place looks like the same. It is said to be from Lithuania, Siauliai:

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 29289.html

Image

This one is also said to be from Siauliai, there are certain similarities in the landscape but it looks like it is taken from the opposite direction. There is also a photographer at the end of the grave (maybe he was the one who took the photos above?)

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 78963.html

Image

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:25 am)

borjastick wrote:...
The picture we are discussing is somewhat a bit part in the greater discussion, as for Russia's involvement in the hoax it is huge as proved by CW Porter and others.

So when one is looking for Independent Thinking perhaps one should come down in favour of us revisionists...

Indeed, the frequent forgeries and false accusation including sentencing and executing people via bogus trial from the Soviet side is more then enough reason to dismiss all their "reports" as not credible. Yet none of the "serious" Western historians ever does do that, they even don't ask for verification. Or are there any examples to the contrary?

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:14 pm)

This is interesting. Note the shoulder patch on the German soldier in the far right foreground, problem is that the Germans appear to be cut & pasted in, see German musicians below.

Image

Image

That's right, German military marching band musicians contrived to appear as is if they 'executing Jews'. Funny stuff.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:40 pm)

Hannover wrote:This is interesting. Note the shoulder patch on the German soldier in the far right foreground, problem is that the Germans appear to be cut & pasted in, see German musicians below.

Image
...

Yes, resolution of the people in German uniforms indeed looks a bit different from the rest of the picture.

And as for that one:
Image
Seriously?

The resolution and quality of real German photos does also almost always look far better then on the "atrocity proof photos".
The following isn't even a good one and it's taken in a room:
Image
Dental Clinic, Auschwitz camp. Source: http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 45937.html

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Landulf » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:49 pm)

Thats absolutely true. The germans has a long history with the best camera lenses there is. Even today people are looking for these lenses to have the vintage look. The more out of focus the genocide photos are the more you should ask if its fake?

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby borjastick » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:57 am)

17195431019782852621.jpg
17195431019782852621.jpg (22.33 KiB) Viewed 2746 times
Is it me or can I see President Roosevelt lurking in the background? :lol:
Attachments
Yalta_Conference_(Churchill,_Roosevelt,_Stalin)_(B&W).jpg
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:55 am)

Landulf wrote:Thats absolutely true. The germans has a long history with the best camera lenses there is. Even today people are looking for these lenses to have the vintage look. The more out of focus the genocide photos are the more you should ask if its fake?

They typically "genocide-proving-photograph" looks like photographs of photographs that have been retouched. Now where is the originals?

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Inquisitor » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:58 am)

Hektor wrote:
Hannover wrote:This is interesting. Note the shoulder patch on the German soldier in the far right foreground, problem is that the Germans appear to be cut & pasted in, see German musicians below.

Image
...

Yes, resolution of the people in German uniforms indeed looks a bit different from the rest of the picture.

And as for that one:
Image
Seriously?



The hand positions and attitude of the German soldiers look unnatural and awkward at best in the top photo! In the lower photo, the pistol the SS man is apparently carrying is definitely not the standard type carried by German troops - not P-38, Luger, Hi-Power, etc. That doesn't mean those are the only pistols they carried - but it is curious that the pistol shown there is certainly not the norm.

I also agree the resolution looks odd with regard to the Germans vs. the apparent Partisans, etc.

Of course, if the photos are legit, the inconsistency of the official narrative comes to the surface again. Why photograph this at all? Wasn't this "holocaust" to be carried out in top secret, etc? Note in the upper photo there rather clearly appears to be even a second photographer or cameraman at the other end of the ditch!

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby cold beer » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:49 am)

max wrote:And then of course, the Einsatzgruppen massacres were spread over whole Eastern Europe. A very large area, AFAIK. And the Einsatzgruppen reports usually to do not mention where where massacre were carried out, so it is very difficult, if not impossible, anyway to locate the mass graves sites. And further, isn't there the danger to confuse mass graves of Stalin's butchers with those of Hitler, and vice versa. Who knows exactly if the bones belong to Jews shot by the Nazis or Russians, Poles, etc. shot by the Soviets.

They assigned a body count of 2 million!
If no details are known then how did this body count become accepted history?

max wrote:So what's the point anyway?

It's called truth!
What do you think would happen if a teacher in any American or European school decided to teach that Jews shot 2 million Germans into pits?

max wrote:Fact is they murdered people, right? Partisans, commissars, Jews.

The Soviets were murdering Poles like they were going out of style.
Why don't we just assign a number of let's say 8 million to that, and teach all American school children that during the first occupation commissars directed the mass murder of 8 million Poles.
The Soviets murdered tens of thousands at Katyn didn't they, so what's the point in not teaching that they shot 8 million Poles into pits?
Should we also include a lesson about the true ethnicity of most of these commissars?
We need to teach this to school children, they need to learn this historical 'fact' because it's the right thing to do isn't it?

max wrote:If we know no graves, is the conclusion maybe that the Einsatzgruppen never existed at all?! Utterly absurd.

During the Nuremberg trials the Soviets listed locations, towns & cities.
With today's technology it should be easy to locate graves of this enormity , it's absurd to believe otherwise.
Anyone of logic would most certainly dismiss these as Soviet lies.
Do you have some particular reason for trusting the word of Soviet communists?

max wrote:the mass graves were emptied by the Civilian population after the war, looking for valuables in those graves, etc.

Ridiculous!
How did grave robbers locate mass graves that investigators cannot?
If this actually took place it, would this not have made it far easier to document these sites?
Grave robbers don't take the corpses with them, do they?
What valuables would they have been looking for being that 'eye witnesses' universally give accounts of the Germans ordering the victims to undress before being shot?
Were they digging them up for hair to make mattresses?

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Re:

Postby cold beer » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:07 am)

Independent Thinker wrote: And that the witnesses who say they destroyed the bodies lied or were tortured?

They weren't telling lies that incriminated themselves, they were telling lies that resulted in death sentences for their enemies.

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Re: No Massgraves

Postby Landulf » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:07 pm)

The German musical soldiers are pasted. They are overexposed, the prisoners are not. Thats my guess. My guttfeeling is that something is wrong in this picture. And I worked with pictures all my life. Would be nice to have some original negatives, but as usual they are not to be found. The russians where good at this. Don't forget the red army soldier on the reichtag and his four watches. The russians did fake that in the end. Look for some german musical parade soldiers. The arms seems to be holding some instrument or a stander. They are to straight and correct, like in a parade.


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