Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
PotPie
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:04 am
Location: Here

Re: Re:

Postby PotPie » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:30 pm)

Cloud wrote:
PotPie wrote:Saying this as an ex-Marxist,

I didn't think it was possible for someone to leave that side. Kudos.


Easier to stop being a Marxist than a holocaust believer, and I did both. The latter was much more difficult than the former.

User avatar
Cloud
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:27 pm
Location: The Land of Political Correctness

Re: Re:

Postby Cloud » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:19 am)

PotPie wrote:Easier to stop being a Marxist than a holocaust believer, and I did both. The latter was much more difficult than the former.

Indeed. For me, I had to read a fair number of T&DP's revisionist books before I stopped believing in the extermination legend. Many years of Holocaust brainwashing and propaganda from our schools and media made the conversion difficult. A four hour, fifteen minute Holocaust denial video by some anonymous Arab may be enough for some people, but it wasn't enough for me. By the way, the fellow seems to be facing some serious cash flow problems.

Eric Hunt
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:20 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:39 am)

Cloud wrote:A four hour, fifteen minute Holocaust denial video by some anonymous Arab may be enough for some people, but it wasn't enough for me. By the way, the fellow seems to be facing some serious cash flow problems.


Denierbud isn't an Arab, in fact does anyone know of any actual Arab Hoax researchers?
Watch THE TREBLINKA ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX

http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/treblinka-archaeology-hoax

Semitism = Jewish Supremacism

User avatar
PotPie
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:04 am
Location: Here

Re: Re:

Postby PotPie » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:06 pm)

Cloud wrote:A four hour, fifteen minute Holocaust denial video by some anonymous Arab may be enough for some people, but it wasn't enough for me. By the way, the fellow seems to be facing some serious cash flow problems.


Denierbud is no Arab. He's of German ancestry as I, as are many of us here who are tired of the attacks against the German people. That's what motivates his revisionist activity, as it does with me.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:34 pm)

It seems quite a few didn't go anywhere: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/07/jewish-renaissance-poland

Ornstein says the centre has young people coming in every day who have no contact with Jewish life but want to explore their Jewish roots. One local rabbi tells a story of a Pole who discovered from his mother's birth certificate that she was Jewish, born in Krakow's wartime ghetto. She told him that she had kept it a secret all her life – and then they discovered that the man's father was Jewish, too.

Jewish life in Krakow, nearly extinguished by the Nazis, was driven underground in the communist era.

From the comments:
I'm reminded of a remarkable CNN report last year about a Polish couple who were in the neo-Nazi scene - before discovering they both had Jewish roots.
They now live as devout religious Jews.

User avatar
Occam's Razor
Member
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:45 pm

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby Occam's Razor » 7 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:04 pm)

I'm reminded of a remarkable CNN report last year about a Polish couple who were in the neo-Nazi scene - before discovering they both had Jewish roots.
They now live as devout religious Jews.


Yes, I read that CNN report last year. Hilarious. They even have a video about the story, which contains slightly more info than the text. A must-see.

Secret Jewish heritage converts neo-Nazi
By Kristin Cuff, CNN
STORY HIGHLIGHTS

* Poles are rediscovering their hidden Jewish heritage after WWII and the fall of Communism
* Among them is a man who was once an anti-Semitic skinhead
* After years of turmoil he is now an Orthodox Jew
* In Communist era many families did not tell their children about their Jewish heritage fearing retribution

Watch this powerful documentary on CNN International's "World's Untold Stories" for more about the Polish Jews who are stepping out of the shadows.


"World's Untold Stories" - indeed, very appropriate...

Here's the link:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/23/poland.jewish/index.html


Seriously, I believe eastern europe is full of Jews.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2641
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:36 am)

This from Wikipedia on the demographic history of Poland.

Deaths Due to German Occupation
Poles-The Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) figure for deaths of Poles due the German occupation is 2,770,000. This figure includes "Direct War Losses" -543,000; "Murdered in Camps and in Pacification" -506,000; "Deaths in prisons and Camps" 1,146,000; "Deaths outside of prisons and Camps" 473,000; "Murdered in Eastern Regions" 100,000; "Deaths in other countries" 2,000. These figures include about 200,000 Polish speaking Jews who are considered Poles in Polish sources.[36]

Jews-Polish resarchers have determined that the Nazis murdered 1,860,000 Polish Jews in the extermination camps in Poland, plus another 1.0 million Polish Jewish deaths in prisons and ghettos. In addition 970,000 Jews from other nations were murdered in the Nazi extermination camps in Poland.[37]

Included in the Polish figures of war dead are 2.0 million Polish citizens in the Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union[38] Contemporary Russian sources also include these losses with Soviet war deaths.[39]


I was pleased to see this topic come back up the listings here as only last week I began to investigate this very subject. My feeling was if most of the so called death camps were in Poland and all of Poland's jews are claimed to have died during the war, why could not a better paper trail, records basis be in existence. To say they just disappeared is rather odd and just not good enough. Now having read this thread and much more I can see that they didn't and once again the Jewish biased Wiki is still on the disinformation trail.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

ovd1965
Member
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:55 am

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby ovd1965 » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:36 am)

statistics is a very nice "science"

from a little german booklet : Alfred Schickel, Die polnischen Kriegsverluste 1939-1945

Schickel is of course a "very bad guy" , because he is a revisionist :-)

"....
Diese offiziellen Zahlen waren von polnischer Seite dadurch ermittelt worden, daß man die Einwohnerzahlen polnischer Provinzen von 1931 (letzte polnische Volkszählung vor dem Kriege) und 1946 verglich. Die Differenz wurde als die Zahl der polni-schen Kriegsverluste gewertet. Erstaun-licherweise waren aber in dieser Tabelle nicht nur die Zahlen der traditionell pol-nischen Provinzen wie etwa Warszawa, Łódź, Kielce, oder Białystok genannt, sondern auch die Zahlen von Olsztyn (Allenstein), Gdańsk (Danzig), Koszalin (Köslin), Szczecin (Stettin), Zielona Góra (Grünberg), Wrocław (Breslau), Opole (Oppeln) und Katowice (Kattowitz). ..."

short :
calculation losses in the "approved" way : deduct population number before 1939 from population after 1945 and you got the number of the "dead" (really ?)

and special polish way :
polish statistics included the population losses in the "new polish territories" , so they add the dead/missed/evacuated germans from Danzig , Allenstein , Stettin , Breslau etc to polish losses .....

".....1946 lebten in Allenstein etwa 588.000 Men-schen weniger als vor dem Krieg, in Stettin betrug die Differenz 633.000, in Breslau 835.000 usw. Addiert man diese tatsächlich deutschen Verluste und zieht sie von der amtlichen Gesamtzahl der postulierten polnischen Opferzahl ab, dann bleiben etwas mehr als 2,6 Millionen....."

for Stettin + Breslau + Allenstein the "before / after" - war - difference is : 2,0 Mio , dead,missed , evacuated or whatever

somewhere I saw the polish data and realised that Schickel was right , will search for the link ....

ovd1965
Member
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:55 am

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby ovd1965 » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:52 am)

http://centropa.org/?nID=52&countryID=175

this is a very interesting data base of survivor stories.

Again and again you can find :

changing name after the war

evacuated in to Russias inner territories

came back 1945/46 and find lots of jews .....

they give detailed informations about relatives and it could be interesting to make an statistical overview : killed , evacuated , returned, emigrated to .. etc


some examples :

"....
Michal Warzager
Country: Poland
City: Legnica
Interviewer: Jakub Rajchman
Date of interview: July 2004

My name is Michal Warzager. I used to have a Jewish name – Icek –

but after the war I changed it to Michal. .....

right after the war Legnica was almost a Jewish town. [After World War II many Jews who had sought refuge in the unoccupied parts of the Soviet Union during the war were repatriated to Legnica and other towns in Lower Silesia.] I looked around the marketplace, or walking down the streets

– Jews everywhere.

I knew a lot of people who were traders then. They kept telling me to stop working and become a trader, but I didn't have a knack for it. They did business with the Russians – they'd buy watches or gold, and then sell the stuff for a profit. But I didn't like hanging around and haggling with them. The police could run you in for that in those days, and I'd got my honorable discharge from the army and didn't want to ruin my reputation. Everything then seemed so temporary – we couldn't be sure we wouldn't have to take off, or that the Germans wouldn't come back to Legnica. We'd have our dinners at the Repatriation Bureau – there was a cafeteria there. We didn't save money. We lived for the moment.

Country: Poland
City: Legnica
Interviewer: Jakub Rajchman
Date of interview: July 2004

My name is Henryk Umow.

Before the war my name was Chaim Umowa,

but when the Russians entered Lomza in 1939 they registered me as Umow, because, they said, Umowa is feminine. [In both Russian and Polish, nouns ending with ‘a' are usually feminine.]

And then after the war I changed my first name to Henryk to make it more Polish. But my sister [Zlata] always called me Chaim, even after the war.

I stayed on in Zawady for a bit after the liberation, and then headed west, to the Recovered Territories [see Regained Lands] [11], because I no longer had any home or family.

And that's how I got to Legnica. That was in 1946.

I remember that there were a lot of Jews here.

Later on, during the Sinai War [12], there was a joke going around about Nasser threatening that if Israel didn't stop fighting he'd bomb the world's three biggest Jewish towns: Legnica, Swidnica and Walbrzych
My daughter Grazyna was born in 1951, and my son Bogdan two years later.

Both of them grew up knowing they have Jewish ancestry.

My son didn't and still doesn't have any contact with the Jewish

Ferenc Deutsch
Country: Hungary
City: Budapest
Interviewer: Eszter Andor and Dora Sardi

I was liberated on the 8th of May, 1945.

They wanted to take me from Theresienstadt to Sweden.

All day long the loudspeaker said in all languages:
“Don't go back to those countries which expelled you.”

Very many went away, but I wanted to go home, because I did not know at the time what had happened to my wife, and I wanted to help the family. The

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2641
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:14 am)

This is very interesting. I will do a balance check to see the numbers of Polish catholics killed in the war in any circumstances. This is because as I have mentioned before a friend of mine is born to Polish Catholic parents. They left Poland with up to 100 members of their immediate and extended family. Some went to UK, Africa, France, Belarus, Ukraine etc. None returned to Poland after the war, but apart from a few all survived the war. I wonder if this type of person is also recorded as 'killed' by German actions.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

ovd1965
Member
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:55 am

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby ovd1965 » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:44 am)

a very common story :

"....
Daniel Bertram

Country: Poland
City: Cracow

Interviewer: Edyta Gawron
Date of interview: January 2004

Two of the Russian soldiers from the NKVD [12] led us. They had loaded rifles. They took us to the barracks. We were there for three weeks, without baths.

We slept on bunks. We didn't know how long we'd be there. And when I was asleep that guy from Sosnowiec stole my watch. I got it back, but there's no knowing how many times he stole from me at the house. He could have stolen money from my wallet, because I never kept tabs on it. I was trusting; I never thought that anyone would rob me. And then he said goodbye because he was going with a different group. After three weeks they took us away in this lorry, to the station in Lwow. We didn't know where we were going. They loaded us into cattle cars. There were these bunks with palliasses, and a tiny window with a grille. The heat was terrible, but every day it got colder, which meant that we were traveling north. They gave us a meal once a day. They gave us this kind of round loaf to share between four. Then some of the others among us, in their underwear,
I was taken to yet another camp, Piatiy Uchastek. And we were there for another few months.We were driven there, because it was a different season.

We were driven in lorries, but not petrol powered, but wood powered. Every few kilometers the driver would stop and throw the blocks of wood into this cylinder. (!!!!)

And that's how we traveled. We didn't know where to until we came to Piatiy Uchastek, or ‘the fifth section'. They were always chopping and changing the groups, a different team every verse end. Different people. A stranger among strangers, I was. I didn't know anyone. And work again. The conditions were harsher there. The best conditions were in Kanatna Droga.
There was this huge project: there were an awful lot of Russkies [derogatory term for Russians], who were building a hydroelectric power plant. We were reinforcing the sluicegate, all the time, near the Volga. And then one day, one night, 4th September 1941, we found out about the Sikorski amnesty. We didn't know about Majski then [the Sikorski-Majski Pact] [14]. The next day we were called out to the registration committee in alphabetical order. And they asked me where I wanted to go. Did I want to go to Kokand [Uzbekistan] or to Tashkent? I wanted to go to Astrakhan, because there was Russian industry there. But a friend from Cracow told me that the Cracovians were going to Georgia, and that I should go there too.

There in Georgia this Georgian woman asked me:

‘Is it true,' – because she had been reading the newspapers – ‘is it true that they are killing Jews?' I replied that I didn't know anything.

But two people from Lwow came to Georgia. One was called Zelmanowicz and the other Gutman. And they said that there, in the ghettos, there was starvation. I don't know how they got to us. But we went to this one prayer house every Saturday afternoon. And one of these Kiev Jews gave a ‘droshe'. ‘Droshe', in Ashkenazi ‘drasha', in Sephardi, means ‘speech'. And he gave this speech about the Torah what is said on a given day, what ‘parsha' [parashah], or ‘polsyk' [according to Mr. Bertram the word used in prewar Cracow for parashah]. And right at the end he told us about the tragedy, that over on the other side they were killing people by then. He already knew everything; perhaps he had read a Russian newspaper or a Georgian one. Perhaps he had found out from Georgian Jews. But we didn't really believe it; we didn't really take much notice, because we didn't know whom it affected. We just listened.....

The war ended on 9th May 1945, and I left Georgia on 22nd April 1945. I left, but at that time we still weren't allowed to leave! My neighbors left earlier than that; they kept it a secret from me, but they came back.

They were turned back by this NKVD functionary, because he asked them, on a train during an inspection:

‘Where are you going?', and they said: ‘To Poland.' ‘Go back, there is no Poland!'

They came back, and then my neighbor got himself and me passes from the militia, to travel on family affairs, but not to Poland! We only got two rail tickets: on one we were to travel to Slavuta [Ukraine], and in Slavuta we were to throw that ticket away and go to Kamenets Podolski. We were traveling for three weeks, changing trains every other day, because there was no other way. ...

We arrived in Cracow on 9th or 10th May. We reported to the Jewish Committee and there they registered us. And there, this couple, Aleksandrowicz was their name, a young married couple, asked me: ‘Do you have a cousin named Olga?' So I said, ‘Yes.' And she said that she used to go to school with her. And she told me that she had left Lwow and crossed the border somewhere with a guide.

And I found out that she had managed to get to Los Angeles, via Yokohama, together with her husband, who was called Erteschick, from Cracow. They hadn't managed to get married here, but they got married there, in Los Angeles.

But there was this one older man there, a very devout man, who had worn a beard in Georgia. But when he came to Poland he shaved it off completely because he was afraid of anti-Semites....


The largest emigration wave was between 1945 and 1950. You either needed an invitation or you went illegally – to Israel, to Palestine.

After the war I changed my [first] name;


I don't remember which year that was: perhaps it was 1954, or earlier. I changed it for a position. I wanted to get a position. A policewoman asked me whether I wanted to change my name. So I said ‘Yes, to Daniel'. But when I went to the registry office, she said: ‘That's just as bad.' Friends were changing their [family] names. One of them was called Sternrei. So he changed it to Sterynski. Goldwaser changed his name to Garda. In the Jewish Community people weren't interested in whether you changed your name or not. I wasn't interested in who changed their name and who didn't. People who converted must have changed their names if they had Jewish ones. We had this teacher in the fourth or fifth grade, and he said: ‘You can say you're a Catholic, but you mustn't say that you believe in Christ.' That's what he said to us. I don't know how many people in Cracow converted after the war.



There were a lot of people who had had Aryan papers during the occupation and that's how they survived.

They got these papers from a priest; I don't know if they had to convert, or pray, or if they had to kiss the cross


But after 1989 television crews started coming, and they began a series of interviews about experiences during the war. So we started reminiscing. A lot of Jews came to Cracow, but most of them were no one we knew.

After the collapse of communism people who had formerly been conspiratorial about being Jewish started to reveal it and started coming to the synagogue, people who often had changed surnames, sometimes even people who had been baptized as Catholics. ............"

User avatar
Steven Willow
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:50 pm

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby Steven Willow » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:58 pm)

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

by ovd1965 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:52 am

http://centropa.org/?nID=52&countryID=175

this is a very interesting data base of survivor stories.

Again and again you can find :

changing name after the war

evacuated in to Russias inner territories

came back 1945/46 and find lots of jews .....

they give detailed informations about relatives and it could be interesting to make an statistical overview : killed , evacuated , returned, emigrated to .. etc


ovid1965, you have linked us to a Hoaxter site and survivor stories are just that - stories. They are infested with errors, flawed memories and just plain lies. Besides, why would the jew controlled Soviet regime have been in the forefront of Hoaxing a jewish holocaust while repressing jews and pressuring them to deny that they were jews?

My feeling is that revisionists don't need to worry about where jews went. As long as the Hoaxters can't figure out where the mass graves are, who cares where the jews went. If the Hoaxters can't figure out where the jews wound up (i. e. not under the dirt at Treblinka) then do we have to run around counting every jew who changed his name from Cohen to Kowalski?

The Hoaxters have convinced some of us that it is our responsibility to prove the fate of every missing jew. No, we have proved that the jews were not murdered in gas chambers. Whatever else happened to them should be their own concern.

ovd1965
Member
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:55 am

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby ovd1965 » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:11 am)

@willow

I believe it is not enough to react with : show me the mass grave. It would be more serious to have an answer to the : "where did they go"- question.

They (the leftists, hoaxters, antifanten, court historians and "good-people") are reacting with the childish "the nazis destroyed all evidence" nonsense ( and they Believe it !)

I am discussing every day with such dumb folks , because Germany is the capital of "political correct" madness .....

User avatar
Steven Willow
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:50 pm

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby Steven Willow » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:58 am)

ovd1965 wrote:@willow

I believe it is not enough to react with : show me the mass grave. It would be more serious to have an answer to the : "where did they go"- question.

They (the leftists, hoaxters, antifanten, court historians and "good-people") are reacting with the childish "the nazis destroyed all evidence" nonsense ( and they Believe it !)

I am discussing every day with such dumb folks , because Germany is the capital of "political correct" madness .....


ovid1965, while I am completely sympathetic to your plight of having to endure the sad political correctness of Germans who ought to be angrilly asserting their national heritage, I doubt if any Hoaxters will be impressed with "survivor tales" about a handful of jews who changed their names and forgot they were jews. The Hoaxter's "Where Did They Go" meme revolves around those jews supposedly shipped to the AR camps. The Hoaxters claim that no one can find these jews because they were gassed and cremated. While you and I understand that this is quite hilarious, to play the Hoaxter "Where Did They Go" game, you have to find, say, a former Warsaw jew named Kovaletzcsk who underwent delousing at Treblinka when his last name was Seigelbaum, and now lives in Posen. No Hoaxters dispute that a few stray jews hunkered down in this or that convent and passed the war days in good health. Without an AR connection these Hoaxters will laugh in your face.

Hoaxters will continue to spread their lies anyways. Debating with them is a waste of time.

Toshiro
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 1:36 pm

Re: Jews of Poland. Where'd they go?

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 11 months ago (Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:57 am)

37 articles from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, between 1939 - 1945, about the Soviets evacuating up-to 1.8 million Jews deep into the Soviet Union, saving them from the Nazis:

http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... -jews.html


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests