Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

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Pia Kahn
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 44 minutes ago (Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:39 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:
I find it hard to fathom that jews are in the state of building roads while they are being deported to the east. Can "building roads" be reasonably interpreted as an attribute of jews like rich or famous or sad? Then, both - building roads and marching to the east - cannot happen simultaneously.

The jews could be in the state of sadness while they are being deported. That would make sense.


This is how the sentence is translated according to Wikipedia:

"Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas FOR WORK ON ROADS..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_C ... e_Protocol

So the translator is definitely taking liberties in translating the sentence. He wouldn't be doing this if the meaning of the sentence were readily and easily recognizable. The translator has apparently rejected the interpretation of "depictive predicative attribute", I think for good reason.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Elroy » 1 year 11 months ago (Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:29 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:
I find it hard to fathom that jews are in the state of building roads while they are being deported to the east. Can "building roads" be reasonably interpreted as an attribute of jews like rich or famous or sad? Then, both - building roads and marching to the east - cannot happen simultaneously.

The jews could be in the state of sadness while they are being deported. That would make sense.


This is how the sentence is translated according to Wikipedia:

"Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas FOR WORK ON ROADS..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_C ... e_Protocol

So the translator is definitely taking liberties in translating the sentence. He wouldn't be doing this if the meaning of the sentence were readily and easily recognizable. The translator has apparently rejected the interpretation of "depictive predicative attribute", I think for good reason.


So deported (as in transit east) becomes road building in an establishment translation- I begin to see why this has been so important- what is the mysterious word we are dealing with again?

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Werd » 1 year 11 months ago (Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:46 am)

Elroy wrote:what is the mysterious word we are dealing with again?

straßenbauend
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=86894#p86894

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Hektor » 1 year 11 months ago (Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:04 am)

Werd wrote:
Elroy wrote:what is the mysterious word we are dealing with again?

straßenbauend
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=86894#p86894


I think that word is a minor problem. There are numerous bigger problems with it. Debate should focus on them.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Werd » 1 year 11 months ago (Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:24 am)

Hektor wrote:There are numerous bigger problems with it. Debate should focus on them.

Such as...?

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Hektor » 1 year 11 months ago (Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:18 am)

Werd wrote:
Hektor wrote:There are numerous bigger problems with it. Debate should focus on them.

Such as...?

http://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_uploa ... refrei.pdf
For example that Heydrich isn't listed as participant, while he's mentioned in the first paragraph.
Heydrich would have been the most important person at the conference, meaning the last one any official would have forgotten.

It says "in den privaten Berufen - Heilkunde, Presse , Theater," - semantically and formally correct German would be "in den freien Berufen" or "Freiberufler".

JP Ney lists a lot of problems with the document and text:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndwannsee.html
I think he may have been too pedantic in some cases, but he's spot on with a lot of the things he's saying. And cumulative small issues can also indicate a bigger problem.

That said, the Wannsee protocoll doesn't really lend itself to support the Holocaust thesis, unless you use a lot of innuendo. In that light some people have ask, why we'd be picking on that document. Well, if it looks like a forgery, this needs to be pointed out.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Werd » 1 year 11 months ago (Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:01 pm)

Ah yes, I thought you meant something else that had not been covered. Even Reviso admitted he made a mistake with the "privaten Berufen" issue saying that it was indeed odd. As for the Heydrich issue, I feel I must quote Christian Mentel again.

According to revisionists, an authentic Wannsee Protocol would have to display on every single one of its 15 pages all bureaucratic formalities: all rubber stamps, dates, signatures, reference numbers, names, etc. Some revisionists even claim that because the margin width was not correct and the line pitch were not as they should be, the whole Protocol was not sufficiently authorized, not effective legally, and thus worthless for historiography.

It has to be stressed that all official regulations, norms, requirements and orders adduced by the revisionists against the Wannsee documents were never effective either for the issuing authority (Reich Security Main Office) or the receiving authority (Foreign Office). Again, this revisionist argument has to be considered as a crude attempt to damage the Wannsee documents by use of allegedly objective benchmarks - against the general assumption that Nazi bureaucracy had been perfect. Thus, even the slightest deviations from virtual norms are used as clear-cut "evidence" that the documents were forgeries, not one word is wasted on the question of how general requirements were put into real-life practice in respective areas of competency.

What is suppressed by the revisionists is the simple fact that the Wannsee Protocol was not prepared and not sent out as an isolated document by itself. Instead, it was an attachment to a letter of invitation for a Wannsee follow-up conference. It is on this higher-ranking cover letter (dated February 26, 1942; cf. image 10), where all the features can be found that revisionists complained about on the Protocol.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Hektor » 1 year 11 months ago (Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:39 pm)

Werd wrote:Ah yes, I thought you meant something else that had not been covered. Even Reviso admitted he made a mistake with the "privaten Berufen" issue saying that it was indeed odd. As for the Heydrich issue, I feel I must quote Christian Mentel again.

According to revisionists, an authentic Wannsee Protocol would have to display on every single one of its 15 pages all bureaucratic formalities: all rubber stamps, dates, signatures, reference numbers, names, etc. Some revisionists even claim that because the margin width was not correct and the line pitch were not as they should be, the whole Protocol was not sufficiently authorized, not effective legally, and thus worthless for historiography.
....


Mentel misses the point again. The Wannsee minutes do not have any probative value, since none of the pages is signed by any person with authority. But I can see what he's doing, he picks out some weaker arguments against and then tries to brush them off as irrelevant.
Well, even if there were only some slight oddities with the document the accumulation of such oddities would be an indication not to trust the document. You'll see, all Mentel is going to fall back on is 'academic consensus' on the matter. And a word on oddities, I'd grant that they aren't too strong of an argument, when low level documents are concerned. But on the ministerial level, where top officials are concerned, I don't think a German official would have exposed himself to frowning from his colleagues by delivering a sloppy document.

OK, on the point: Mentel doesn't address the Heydrich issue at all, neither does he deal with the totally unheard of vocational assignations like "privaten Berufen".

You see, one could grant them their speculative claims like perhaps in art historiography (Is this composition from Mozart or not?). Bear in mind we are not dealing with something as circumstantial, but with an issue that's used to hold the German nation hostage for decades with. I think that given this level of importance, it would be mandatory to hold any document up to a far higher standard than some benign document of marginal historical importance. One would actually expect serious historians to do that. But no, they accept anything they deem somehow useful for the Holocaust story-line to be authentic without any further "Quellenkritik", meaning serious assessment and scrutiny of sources.

What is suppressed by the revisionists is the simple fact that the Wannsee Protocol was not prepared and not sent out as an isolated document by itself. Instead, it was an attachment to a letter of invitation for a Wannsee follow-up conference. It is on this higher-ranking cover letter (dated February 26, 1942; cf. image 10), where all the features can be found that revisionists complained about on the Protocol.


Now why not add the letter to the published document facsimiles then? It seems Mentel is naive and thinks forgers would have done a sloppy work of it. Now, if I would be tasked to forge such a document, I won't invent all documents anew. What I'd do would be to pick up existing authentic documents, remove papers I don't find useful and then use authentic materials to manufacture content on it, that I'd like to have on it.
Think of the possibilities here, usually there is only signatures on the first and on the last page (in between pages are commonly paraphrased, but sometimes they are not). So with the right materials and some basic knowledge of language and bureaucratic practices, it's pretty easy to forge documents that way. You could even fool a person that made the real ones by just showing him the pages (you didn't exchange) with his signature. With the distance of years, I guess few people would remember exact content anyway.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 1 year 11 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:39 am)

Elroy wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:
I find it hard to fathom that jews are in the state of building roads while they are being deported to the east. Can "building roads" be reasonably interpreted as an attribute of jews like rich or famous or sad? Then, both - building roads and marching to the east - cannot happen simultaneously.

The jews could be in the state of sadness while they are being deported. That would make sense.


This is how the sentence is translated according to Wikipedia:

"Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas FOR WORK ON ROADS..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_C ... e_Protocol

So the translator is definitely taking liberties in translating the sentence. He wouldn't be doing this if the meaning of the sentence were readily and easily recognizable. The translator has apparently rejected the interpretation of "depictive predicative attribute", I think for good reason.


So deported (as in transit east) becomes road building in an establishment translation- I begin to see why this has been so important- what is the mysterious word we are dealing with again?


Elroy, I think you are wrong. The idea "road building" is well in the German original : it is in the word "strassenbauend". For me, the meaning is clear : the Jews will be led to these areas while building roads.
R.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Elroy » 1 year 11 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:32 pm)

Reviso wrote:
Elroy wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:
This is how the sentence is translated according to Wikipedia:

"Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas FOR WORK ON ROADS..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_C ... e_Protocol

So the translator is definitely taking liberties in translating the sentence. He wouldn't be doing this if the meaning of the sentence were readily and easily recognizable. The translator has apparently rejected the interpretation of "depictive predicative attribute", I think for good reason.


So deported (as in transit east) becomes road building in an establishment translation- I begin to see why this has been so important- what is the mysterious word we are dealing with again?


Elroy, I think you are wrong. The idea "road building" is well in the German original : it is in the word "strassenbauend". For me, the meaning is clear : the Jews will be led to these areas while building roads.
R.


The idea of it being a "spin"- the pretext for which is based on the fact that just about everything holocaust related is a spin- is rather compelling in my view here.

But I admit that I don't speak German and as such do not know enough about it to really contribute further either way Reviso, you could be correct.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 1 year 11 months ago (Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:51 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:
I find it hard to fathom that jews are in the state of building roads while they are being deported to the east. Can "building roads" be reasonably interpreted as an attribute of jews like rich or famous or sad? Then, both - building roads and marching to the east - cannot happen simultaneously.

The jews could be in the state of sadness while they are being deported. That would make sense.


This is how the sentence is translated according to Wikipedia:

"Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas FOR WORK ON ROADS..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_C ... e_Protocol

So the translator is definitely taking liberties in translating the sentence. He wouldn't be doing this if the meaning of the sentence were readily and easily recognizable. The translator has apparently rejected the interpretation of "depictive predicative attribute", I think for good reason.


Wikipedia quotes here Roseman, Mark (2002) : The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution. London; New York: Allen Lane. ISBN 0-71-399570-X, p.113. But in his book The Wannsee Conference and the Final Solution, p. 164 (first ed. 2002, but I don't know the date of my copy) Roseman gives the following translation : "In large, single-sex labor columns, Jews fit to work will work their way eastward constructing roads."
R.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 1 year 11 months ago (Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:43 am)

"In large, single-sex labor columns, Jews fit to work will work their way eastward constructing roads."

You will have to admit that "work their way eastward" is not a translation. These words do not appear at all in the original. Yet another "translation" that does not correspond to the original. Again, this proves that the original text does not make any sense.

You cannot march in work columns to the east and build roads simultaneously. That's impossible. According to your grammar, the jews were in the state of building roads, while they were being marched into a certain direction. That's hogwash.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 1 year 11 months ago (Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:25 am)

By the way, the depictive predicative attribute also exists in English. It is called "depictive contruction"

"Depictive construction is a type of secondary predication which predicates a property of a participant in an event."

Examples

"English (Germanic, Indo-European):

Malcolm left home young.

Alan walked around naked.

David went away angry."

http://www.glottopedia.org/index.php/De ... nstruction

So you can render the sentence into English using the exact same grammar. The original German is: "... werden die ... Juden straßenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt,"

In English: "The jews are lead into these areas building roads."

This sounds just as weird in English as it sounds in German. For this reason, it is never translated in this manner.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 1 year 11 months ago (Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:33 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:In English: "The jews are lead into these areas building roads."
This sounds just as weird in English as it sounds in German. For this reason, it is never translated in this manner.


Well, here :
https://books.google.be/books?id=hyYGOy ... &q&f=false
(Ray Brandon, Wendy Lower, The Shoah in Ukraine: History, Testimony, Memorialization, Indiana University Press, 28 mai 2008 , p. 190)

we read :
with those who were able to work “moved into those territories constructing roads."

R.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 1 year 11 months ago (Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:46 am)

Still doesn't make any sense, wherefore the author gives it the following spin:

"the chief of the ... RSH... nonetheless turned to the occupied Soviet Union, where it was planned to put the jews to work in the east... with those who where able to work "moved into those areas constructing roads""

The whole sentence is completely torn apart and not properly translated. The author is trying to insinuate that the Jews are to build roads in the occupied Soviet Union, i.e. those areas. But that's not what the original German sentence says.

The original says - according to your interpretation - that the jews are in the state of building roads, while they are being lead into these areas.

Now could you please demonstrate to me how this can be done? I can sing a song while I am marching into a direction, but I cannot march into the east whilst I am in the process of building a road. Just show to me how it is done!
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