Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

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Pia Kahn
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:18 pm)

"I'm not sure that the Protocol was a "public" document."

Well, it was a document crafted by a government official. Yes, Ney and Bohlinger may use the term - as anybody else may - as a metaphor for difficult. But, a person working as a civil servant is expected to write differently, at least in Germany.
Last edited by Pia Kahn on Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:21 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:What evidence? You have not posted any evidence whatsoever!

The phrase "Der Mann wurde getrunken zur Polizeiwache geführt" - by the way - does not make any sense whatsoever in German. Mr. Frenchman does not know the difference between "betrunken" and "getrunken" in German.

Now, I do not doubt that most German speaking people can make sense of the sentence by tacitly correcting it. The correct phrase would be: "Der betrunkene Mann wurde zur Polizeiwache geführt."


Oh please, I'm tired and I made a mistake by distraction.
I correct :
My evidence is that you cannot explain why "Der Mann wurde betrunken zur Polizeiwache geführt" is correct and "Die Juden werden strassenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt" is incorrect. If "betrunken" is here (according to you) an adverb, why cannot "strassenbauend" be used similarly as an adverb ?
"Der Mann wurde betrunken zur Polizeiwache geführt" can be translated as "The man was led to the guardhouse while being drunk". Thus, why couldn't "Die Juden werden strassenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt" be translated as "The Jews will be led to these territories while building roads" ?

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:25 pm)

"Oh please, I'm tired and I made a mistake by distraction."

Nobody distracted you. This was a mistake of your own making. I am not going to repeat my explanations.

You still haven't answered the question what "strassenbauend" is in a grammatical sense, if it is not an adverb according to your FEELINGS, then what is it? Instead you keep asking me!
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:34 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:"I'm not sure that the Protocol was a "public" document."

Well, it was a document crafted by a government official. Yes, Ney and Bohlinger may use the term - as anybody else - as a metaphor for difficult. But, a person working as a civil servant is expected to write differently, at least in Germany.


Could you quote a passage of a linguistic authority from which it results that "schwer" in the sense of "difficult" is too low level language for the report of a meeting as the Wannsee meeting ?

And by the way, Ney and Bohlinger say : " Der Verfasser hat "difficult" gedacht, was im Amerikanischen zulässig ist und dort "schwer" oder "schwierig" heißt, er hat das Wort aber dann nicht mit "schwierig" übersetzt, sondern mit "schwer", was im Deutschen falsch ist."
Thus, they don't say that "schwer" in the sense of "difficult" is low level language, they say that it is "falsch". Thus they are wrong.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:39 pm)

It is "wrong" in the context of a government document. Government officials of a high rank are expected to write precisely. The expression "as im Deutschen falsch ist." is too harsch. I agree. But, in the context of a high level meeting of government officials, this term certainly is unusual and raises an eye brow, something is wrong here...
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:46 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:"Oh please, I'm tired and I made a mistake by distraction."

Nobody distracted you. This was a mistake of your own making. I am not going to repeat my explanations.

You still haven't answered the question what "strassenbauend" is in a grammatical sense, if it is not an adverb according to your FEELINGS, then what is it? Instead you keep asking me!


It is irrelevant whether "strassenbauend" is an adverb. I said that it is possible that the German grammarians consider it as an adverb.
I repeat that, adverb or not, you cannot explain why "Der Mann wurde betrunken zur Polizeiwache geführt" is correct and "Die Juden werden strassenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt" is incorrect. If "betrunken" is here (according to you and possibly to German grammarians) an adverb, why cannot "strassenbauend" be used similarly as an adverb ?
"Der Mann wurde betrunken zur Polizeiwache geführt" can be translated as "The man was led to the guardhouse while being drunk". Thus, why couldn't "Die Juden werden strassenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt" be translated as "The Jews will be led to these territories while (being) building roads" ?

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:50 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:It is "wrong" in the context of a government document. Government officials of a high rank are expected to write precisely. The expression "as im Deutschen falsch ist." is too harsch. I agree. But, in the context of a high level meeting of government officials, this term certainly is unusual and raises an eye brow, something is wrong here...


No no no. Ney and Bohlinger don't say that it is wrong in a certain context, they say "was im Deutschen falsch ist". They don't speak of linguistic level.

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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:11 pm)

"It is irrelevant whether "strassenbauend" is an adverb. I said that it is possible that the German grammarians consider it as an adverb."

What is the grammatical function of "strassenbauend", if it is not an adverb? You keep dodging my questions. I want to know.

It is not irrelevant, what the grammatical function of the term is. If you cannot define its function, then you cannot define its meaning in the context of the sentence.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:14 pm)

Reviso wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:It is "wrong" in the context of a government document. Government officials of a high rank are expected to write precisely. The expression "as im Deutschen falsch ist." is too harsch. I agree. But, in the context of a high level meeting of government officials, this term certainly is unusual and raises an eye brow, something is wrong here...


No no no. Ney and Bohlinger don't say that it is wrong in a certain context, they say "was im Deutschen falsch ist". They don't speak of linguistic level.


They are talking about a document drafted by a high ranking government official. Therefore, the context is clear to any fair-minded person. Some who is not fair-minded may construe this passage to relate to a document drafted by a child.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Breker » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:18 pm)

Reviso, Pia Kahn,
This is becoming tedious.
If I may, which of you speak German as your first language?
B.
Last edited by Breker on Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:19 pm)

Breker wrote:Reviso, Pia Kahn,
This is becoming tedious.
Which of you speak German as your first language?
B.


I do. Reviso speaks French.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Breker » 9 months 1 week ago (Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:21 pm)

Pia, thank you.
B.
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby borjastick » 9 months 1 week ago (Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:10 am)

I've lost the will to live.

Some people cannot see the wood for the trees.

Does this argument move things on at all?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Pia Kahn
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 9 months 1 week ago (Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:21 am)

borjastick wrote:I've lost the will to live.

Some people cannot see the wood for the trees.

Does this argument move things on at all?


Cheer up mate! :D
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Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 9 months 1 week ago (Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:58 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:What is the grammatical function of "strassenbauend", if it is not an adverb? You keep dodging my questions. I want to know.


Well, it is a "prädikatives Attribut", more precisely a "depiktives Prädikativ".
Here are some examples.

https://d-nb.info/1022011448/34

Zur Klassifizierung der Prädikative
Dissertation zur Erlangung des akademischen Grades eines Doctor philosophiae (Dr. Phil.)
vorgelegt dem Rat der Philosophischen Fakultät der Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
von Justyna Dolińska
(...)

p. 9

Die Adjektive (...) in folgenden Fügungen: (...)
(40) Die Kinder schlafen zufrieden ein. (d.h. zufriedene Kinder)
(...) nennen die Autoren (HEIDOLPH u.a. 1981: 618, 582) prädikative Attribute

(...)
p. 14
(71) a. Das Mädchen kommt fröhlich nach Hause. (= prädikatives Attribut)
b. Es ist (zu diesem Zeitpunkt) fröhlich.
(72) a. Das fröhliche Mädchen kommt nach Hause. (= normales Attribut)
b. Das Mädchen kommt nach Hause. Es ist (immer) fröhlich.

(...)
p. 16
(96) Die Kinder kamen gesund an.

(...)
p. 23
(154) Die Muscheln lagen ''ungeöffnet'' auf dem Teller.

(...)
p. 35
(236) Der Gefreite wurde (vom Offizier) wach gebrüllt.
[Note (Reviso) : according to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/br%C3%BCllen , "brüllen" is transitive and intransitive.]

p. 36
(248) Das Kind kam hungrig nach Hause.

p. 45
(266) Karl befindet sich stehend/liegend/kniend im Zimmer
p. 115

6 Depiktive Prädikative
Im vorliegenden Kapitel werden die kursiv gesetzten Ausdrücke behandelt:
(545) Er isst die Karotten ''roh''
(...)
Es liegt hier ein depiktives Prädikativ (DUDEN-GRAMMATIK 2005), ein
prädikatives Attribut (HEIDOLPH u.a. 1981; HELBIG/BUSCHA 2001 – betrifft nur das Adjektiv), ein Verbgruppenadverbial (VG-Adverbial) mit Komplementbezug (ZIFONUN u.a. 1997),
[Note (Reviso) : Verbgruppenadverbial is not the same thing as adverb.]
ein Disjunkt (ENGEL 2004) oder ein freies Prädikativ (ERBEN 1980; EISENBERG 2006) vor. Hier soll des Weiteren zentral von depiktivem Prädikativ gesprochen werden.

[Note (Reviso) : if "roh" is a "prädikatives Attribut" in the phrase "Er isst die Karotten roh", there is no reason that it doesn't remain a "prädikatives Attribut" in the passive form : "die Karotten werden roh gegessen". Compare with "Die Juden werden strassenbauend geführt".]


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