Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Werd » 2 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 pm)

Pia Kahn wrote:Let me chime in here, because German is my native language:

"der allfällig endlich verbliebene Restbestand [...]" ("the possible final remnant")

This translation into English is not correct. "allfällig" is a weird term that hardly anybody uses, so be it. It is used as an adverb and means "possibly".

The term "endlich" is also strange in this context. It can mean "at last", "finite" or "finally". "endlich" is used as and adverb.

The term "verbliebene" was not translated. "Verbleiben" means "to remain" and "verblieben" is the past participle, which is "remained" in English. The "remained remainder" sounds wrong to me. The word "verbleibend" actually means "remaining". "Rest" means rest or remnant and "Restbestand" means "remaining number of..." or "remainder".

So the grammatically correct translation of this expression into English is:

"The possibly finally remained remainder"

This sounds just as awkward in English as it does in German. This is extremely clumsy. On the one hand the author is using outdated terms like "allfällig" in order to appear smart but then he gets the grammar all wrong - remained in stead of remaining!

Now you can make up your own mind.

So if it is found in the only surviving copy of Wannsee, being 16/30 (not talking about facsimiles), how do we explain this coming from the mouth of a German? Eichmann being Austrian? Is Austrian really that clumsy? I do not know...

Pia Kahn
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:59 pm)

"Google finds "schließlich wird an das nächste Rechnungsjahr der aus den vorstehenden, summarisch angeführten Posten verbliebene Restbestand von 70 Gewichtseinheiten übergeben.", apparently in a serious book."

True and correct German. "wird übergeben" means "is transferred". "verbliebene Restbestand" refers to a remainder that already exists. It is the remainder of the last fiscal year. The accountant is transferring this sum that remained from the last fiscal to the next fiscal year (Rechnungsjahr). I don't doubt that.

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the correctness of grammar? I don't doubt that you will find somebody on the internet who makes grammatical mistakes. What does that prove?
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3497
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Hektor » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:40 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:Now let me turn to the expression "freie Berufe".

"Freie Berufe" is a special legal term in German like "civil servant" in English. The term "civil servant" in general does not mean a "polite (civil) slave (servant)" The term civil servant means a person employed in the civil service; a government employee.

The term "Freie Berufe" in general does not mean and "free (frei) profession (Beruf)". Instead it stands for a number of professions, which are performed by freelancers typically in the fields of science, the arts and education. But also lawyers and medical doctors perform a "freie Beruf", if they are freelancers. People who perform a "freie Beruf" are exempt from paying certain taxes, which other businesses have to pay.

These are the professions that the document is talking about. Thus, the term "private Berufe", private professions - whatever that means - is not a synonym in German for the term "freie Berufe".

So it's a mistake. The wrong term is used.


Freie Beruf or Freiberufler mainly means lawyers, medical doctors, architects and it may also include freelance artists. They got a special status in German Law.

Private Berufe is a misnommer indicative of someone that has learned German well, but is lacking the general practice in the language and familiarity with the semantics and legal terminology. That passage alone is enough to dismiss it as authentic.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:34 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:"Google finds "schließlich wird an das nächste Rechnungsjahr der aus den vorstehenden, summarisch angeführten Posten verbliebene Restbestand von 70 Gewichtseinheiten übergeben.", apparently in a serious book."

True and correct German. "wird übergeben" means "is transferred". "verbliebene Restbestand" refers to a remainder that already exists. It is the remainder of the last fiscal year. The accountant is transferring this sum that remained from the last fiscal to the next fiscal year (Rechnungsjahr). I don't doubt that.


Perhaps my first example was not convincing. What do you think of this one : "Der verbliebene Restbestand aus der Vorperiode soll also nicht erfolgswirksam aufgelöst werden!" It is in a book edited by Springer :
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -92072-0_5

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the correctness of grammar? I don't doubt that you will find somebody on the internet who makes grammatical mistakes.

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the incorrectness of grammar?
R.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:44 am)

Hektor wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:Now let me turn to the expression "freie Berufe".

"Freie Berufe" is a special legal term in German like "civil servant" in English. The term "civil servant" in general does not mean a "polite (civil) slave (servant)" The term civil servant means a person employed in the civil service; a government employee.

The term "Freie Berufe" in general does not mean and "free (frei) profession (Beruf)". Instead it stands for a number of professions, which are performed by freelancers typically in the fields of science, the arts and education. But also lawyers and medical doctors perform a "freie Beruf", if they are freelancers. People who perform a "freie Beruf" are exempt from paying certain taxes, which other businesses have to pay.

These are the professions that the document is talking about. Thus, the term "private Berufe", private professions - whatever that means - is not a synonym in German for the term "freie Berufe".

So it's a mistake. The wrong term is used.


Freie Beruf or Freiberufler mainly means lawyers, medical doctors, architects and it may also include freelance artists. They got a special status in German Law.

Private Berufe is a misnommer indicative of someone that has learned German well, but is lacking the general practice in the language and familiarity with the semantics and legal terminology. That passage alone is enough to dismiss it as authentic.


Google finds "privaten Berufen" 693 times, many times in academic books. How is it possible if "Private Berufe is a misnommer indicative of someone that has learned German well, but is lacking the general practice in the language and familiarity with the semantics and legal terminology." ?
R.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:47 am)

Reviso wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:"Google finds "schließlich wird an das nächste Rechnungsjahr der aus den vorstehenden, summarisch angeführten Posten verbliebene Restbestand von 70 Gewichtseinheiten übergeben.", apparently in a serious book."

True and correct German. "wird übergeben" means "is transferred". "verbliebene Restbestand" refers to a remainder that already exists. It is the remainder of the last fiscal year. The accountant is transferring this sum that remained from the last fiscal to the next fiscal year (Rechnungsjahr). I don't doubt that.


Perhaps my first example was not convincing. What do you think of this one : "Der verbliebene Restbestand aus der Vorperiode soll also nicht erfolgswirksam aufgelöst werden!" It is in a book edited by Springer :
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -92072-0_5

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the correctness of grammar?

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the incorrectness of grammar?
R.

Pia Kahn
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:27 am)

Reviso wrote:... Google finds "privaten Berufen" 693 times, many times in academic books. How is it possible if "Private Berufe is a misnommer indicative of someone that has learned German well, but is lacking the general practice in the language and familiarity with the semantics and legal terminology." ?
R.


Nobody doubts that it is possible to add the adjective "private" to the noun profession in German just like in English. Whatever this is supposed to mean depends on the context.

However, you have not provided any evidence that the expression "privater Beruf" is used as a synonym for the legal term "freier Beruf" in German. The reason for your lack of evidence is that the term "privater Beruf" is not a synonym for "freier Beruf".

"Privater Beruf" is a misnomer for the term "freier Beruf". It is not a misnomer in many other circumstances. Do you understand?
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

Pia Kahn
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:38 am)

Reviso wrote:
Reviso wrote:
Pia Kahn wrote:"Google finds "schließlich wird an das nächste Rechnungsjahr der aus den vorstehenden, summarisch angeführten Posten verbliebene Restbestand von 70 Gewichtseinheiten übergeben.", apparently in a serious book."

True and correct German. "wird übergeben" means "is transferred". "verbliebene Restbestand" refers to a remainder that already exists. It is the remainder of the last fiscal year. The accountant is transferring this sum that remained from the last fiscal to the next fiscal year (Rechnungsjahr). I don't doubt that.


Perhaps my first example was not convincing. What do you think of this one : "Der verbliebene Restbestand aus der Vorperiode soll also nicht erfolgswirksam aufgelöst werden!" It is in a book edited by Springer :
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -92072-0_5

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the correctness of grammar?

Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the incorrectness of grammar?
R.


Your second example also refers to something that has happened. It refers to a "Vorperiode", literally meaning a period before ...., i.e. a period of the past.
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2643
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby borjastick » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:47 am)

I'm a bit confused by all this analysis. The minutes of a meeting are not supposed to be a verbatim record of exactly what was said and by whom but a summary of the discussion and agreements made along with action points and responsibilities. They are not a court record where a stenographer is required to record every word because it matters a lot.

Therefore the minutes would have been made by a third party who is not at the table as part of the executive. That person would listen to the discussion and record the tone and content of it but not the specific nuances of each speaker thus we can conclude that unless that minute taker was also of a particular regional complexion they would record in German German not Austrian German. I am not deeply into the Wannsee conference so may have missed a point here and there.

As for the question about Heydrich being there or not, he would not be on the participant list if he was there only for a small part but the minutes would record his coming and going.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:
Reviso wrote:
Reviso wrote:
Perhaps my first example was not convincing. What do you think of this one : "Der verbliebene Restbestand aus der Vorperiode soll also nicht erfolgswirksam aufgelöst werden!" It is in a book edited by Springer :
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -92072-0_5


Why don't you refer to a grammar book if you want to prove the incorrectness of grammar?
R.


Your second example also refers to something that has happened. It refers to a "Vorperiode", literally meaning a period before ...., i.e. a period of the past.


The author of the Protocol also refers to a "Vorperiode" : the "periode" after which there will remain a "Restbestand".
R.

Pia Kahn
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:52 am)

The author of the Protocol also refers to a "Vorperiode" : the "periode" after which there will remain a "Restbestand".

The Wannsee protocol refers to the possible future not the past. Therefore, the particip perfect , the particip of the past, is wrong.
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

Pia Kahn
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:11 am)

I just took a look at the Wannsee protocol:

http://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ar1942.pdf

It says on page 8:

"Der allfällig endlich verbleibende Restbestand..."

Thus, the mistake "verbliebene" instead of "verbleibende" is not in the original protocol. I assume that "Reviso" will now agree with me that "verbleibende" is the correct German form - contrary to everything else he has said so far.
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:31 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:I just took a look at the Wannsee protocol:

http://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ar1942.pdf

It says on page 8:

"Der allfällig endlich verbleibende Restbestand..."

Thus, the mistake "verbliebene" instead of "verbleibende" is not in the original protocol. I assume that "Reviso" will now agree with me that "verbleibende" is the correct German form - contrary to everything else he has said so far.


Good find (p. 8 ). It seems that Muehlenkamp incorrectly quoted Frey and Bohlinger (and the Protocol). By the way, I'm not sure that "verbleibende" and "verbliebene" are not both correct in this context. I explained why when I spoke of the "Vorperiode". But OK, as a native German speaker, you feel perhaps these things better than I do.
R.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:47 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:
Reviso wrote:... Google finds "privaten Berufen" 693 times, many times in academic books. How is it possible if "Private Berufe is a misnommer indicative of someone that has learned German well, but is lacking the general practice in the language and familiarity with the semantics and legal terminology." ?
R.


Nobody doubts that it is possible to add the adjective "private" to the noun profession in German just like in English. Whatever this is supposed to mean depends on the context.

However, you have not provided any evidence that the expression "privater Beruf" is used as a synonym for the legal term "freier Beruf" in German. The reason for your lack of evidence is that the term "privater Beruf" is not a synonym for "freier Beruf".

"Privater Beruf" is a misnomer for the term "freier Beruf". It is not a misnomer in many other circumstances. Do you understand?


Theodor Eschenburg, "Aus den Anfängen des Landes Württemberg-Hohenzollern", Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, Juli 1962,
http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1962_3.pdf
says : "Die meisten waren aus privaten Berufen hervorgegangen, waren Anwälte oder Journalisten gewesen oder hatten eine Tätigkeit in Industrie, Landwirtschaft oder Handel ausgeübt." (p. 276)

If Theodor Eschenburg can speak of "privaten Berufen" whithout saying "freien Berufen", why is it impossible that the author of the Protocol spoke of "privaten Berufen" in the same meaning as Theodor Eschenburg ?
R.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

Postby Reviso » 2 years 6 months ago (Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:43 am)

Pia Kahn wrote:The term "verbliebene" was not translated. "Verbleiben" means "to remain" and "verblieben" is the past participle, which is "remained" in English. The "remained remainder" sounds wrong to me. The word "verbleibend" actually means "remaining". "Rest" means rest or remnant and "Restbestand" means "remaining number of..." or "remainder".

So the grammatically correct translation of this expression into English is:

"The possibly finally remained remainder"

This sounds just as awkward in English as it does in German. (...) the author (...) gets the grammar all wrong - remained in stead of remaining!


Since you posted this message, you found that the Protocol in reality says "Der (...) verbleibende Restbestand". Google finds 333 times "der verbleibende restbestand", notably in academic books. In order to make things clear, may I ask if you have objections against "der verbleibende restbestand" ?
R.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests