NS Vernichtungslager by Rückerl-what is it?

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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:37 am)

Now this is getting even more interesting.

Maybe I wrote the page numbers down wrong. I'll check again too next time I'm at the library. Because I know it's on pg. 970 in Hilberg.

That's pretty impressive you happened to have that book. You must have a hell of a library! What's the book like? Do you see anything ridiculous?

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:23 am)

CC Supreme, just a friendly note:

The Revs here have it wired pretty tight, so if you cite something and it's a bit off, chances are you will hear about it. That's the way it should be.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:36 pm)

I agree, and I'm glad it's that way. I'll check my reference soon. --thanks.

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Postby jemand » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:15 pm)

Karl S wrote:I don't hold this DVD for anything. To my knowledge of German language this sentence means:
Ausgewähltes Quellenmaterial


= Selected source material. Who has selected it? :D

True, but it also says:
Der 430-stündige Tonbandmitschnitt der Hauptverhandlung

which I take to mean the complete live tape recordings of the main trial.
Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:DVD's are known for having multiple languages. I wonder if there's English on it.

More than likely not. 430 hours of audio is a lot even for a DVD. They probably had to encode it at a low quality just to fit the German original on the DVD.
Jemand: it would be great if you could ever find this Vernichtungslager book, and tell us what it's like.

I have actually been looking for it, but it is hard to get. I will let you know when I get a hold of it.
If you ever looked in a big library and asked the librarian, you could pretend you're a holocaust scholar, rather than a revisionist!

Or I could bravely voice my doubts about the holocaust and five minutes later be deported by the thought police :D

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:11 pm)

I went to the library today and volume II of Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews was checked out. So I couldn't check out the reference on page 970. I'll buy all three volumes soon.

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Postby Karl S » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:25 pm)

jemand wrote:True, but it also says:
Der 430-stündige Tonbandmitschnitt der Hauptverhandlung

which I take to mean the complete live tape recordings of the main trial.


You take the 430-hour recording, as it will be all? Where are the sources for how long the recordings really are?

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:50 pm)

Hi Jemand.

Wow. 430 hours. That is listening to it all day for 53 days--what a waste of time that would be!

Too bad the dvd didn't include a text transcript because then you could do a keyword search.

I think court cases are very tough for revisionists to understand. Because no one in their right mind would listen to one for 53 days straight, and so the alternative is to have someone write a synopsis. But the person who does that is usually in the exterminationalist camp.

Keyword searches have big value though, in this technology age.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:38 pm)

Sailor wrote:
I have a copy of Adalbert Rückerl NS-Vernichtungslager.

Are you sure about the page numbers? The camp Sobibor is dealt with on pages 145 to 196, not 14-41.

I scanned all pages quickly but could not find anything about babies thrown into vehicles. When I have some more time I will check once more carefully.

Yes, I made a mistake and listed reference number 45, and it's actually reference number 46. Here's the whole thing again.

To refresh people's memories: I saw that Hilberg uses Jankiel Weirnik as a source, and I know Wiernik is a fraud. But I read other weird things in Hilberg's Destruction like
At Sobibor, where trucks picked up the aged and the infants, guards would occasionally try to toss the babies from a considerable distance into the vehicle. 46

46: Ruckerl, NS Vernichtungslager. pp. 171, 191-192.

That then made me want to know what was in Ruckerl, and where Ruckerl got his information.

Sailor. Are you around?

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Postby jemand » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:18 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:But I read other weird things in Hilberg's Destruction like
At Sobibor, where trucks picked up the aged and the infants, guards would occasionally try to toss the babies from a considerable distance into the vehicle. 46

46: Ruckerl, NS Vernichtungslager. pp. 171, 191-192.

That then made me want to know what was in Ruckerl, and where Ruckerl got his information.

Quote from page 171 of the Rückerl book:
Einige Aufseher - so berichten Zeugen, die im Bahnhofskommando tätig sein mußten oder sich in Sichtweite der Rampe aufhielten - hätten sich dadurch hervorgetan, daß sie Kleinkinder, Säuglinge, die sie in Waggons zurückgelassen fanden, an den Beinchen erfaßten, ausholten und die Köpfchen an den Wänden der Waggons zerschmetterten. (170) Zu anderen Gelegenheiten hätten sie versucht, Kleinkinder auf die Loren zu werfen, mit denen Alte und Gebrechliche in das Lager III gefahren wurden, und dies aus möglichst weitem Abstand, miteinander wetteifernd, und ohne Rücksicht darauf, daß die Kinder dabei schwer verletzt oder gar getötet wurden.

(170) Vorfälle dieser Art waren Gegenstand des Urteils des Schwurgerichts Frankfurt/M. vom 3. März 1951 gegen Hirtreiter, siehe S. 42.

Rough translation:
Some guards - according to witnesses who had to work at the train station or were near the ramp - would grab babies that had been left in wagons by their legs and crush their skulls by slamming them on the wagon's wall. (170) On other occasions they tried to throw little children on one of the open wagons that were used to bring the old and sickly to camp III, rivalling each other by throwing them from as far away as they could, inconsiderate of whether or not the children got seriously injured or even killed.

(170) Incidents of this kind were the subject of the verdict of the Frankfurt am Main court against Hirtreiter on March 3, 1951, see p. 42.

On page 41/42, it says Josef Hirtreiter got a life sentence for the slamming-babies-against-wagons, among other murders.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:38 pm)

On page 41/42, it says Josef Hirtreiter got a life sentence for the slamming-babies-against-wagons, among other murders.

Right, he supposedly committed the heinous crime of killing babies "among other murders" and wasn't executed. Perhaps he agreed to falsely name others to avoid being hung, even though he himself wasn't guilty. I'd be curious to see how much time he actually served.

There is no credible evidence for such baby slamming and wouldn't have been tolerated in the highly disciplned SS. The whole thing doesn't make sense ... as is usual with the so called 'holocau$t'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:59 pm)

Nice Job Jemand! You came through.

I didn't have a lot of time, so more later, but I typed Josef Hirtreiter into google, and I guess the guy committed atrocities in places besides Sobibor :roll: , as mentioned in Ruckerl and Hilberg. Because he confessed to operating the gas chamber-death-camp Malkinia or Balkinia. In case you haven't heard of "Malkinia death camp" it's because I don't think it's considered a death camp anymore.

I got this from Ukar.org.
http://www.ukar.org/dersho08.html

By the way, I think the Ukrainian Lubomyr Prytulak is probably one of the most brilliant revisionists around, but few know about him.

Start by scrolling down to the original declassified image of a United States document. The interrogator's name was 'Jack Friedlander' Will someone please tell me that 'Friedlander" is not a Jewish last name? If it is, it would just be too much for me.
http://www.ukar.org/dersho08.html

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Postby jemand » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:07 pm)

This page talks about "incongruity between the Hirtreiter confession and the absence of historical coverage":
In the Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) document reproduced below, SS-Unterscharführer Josef HIRTREITER is said to confess to working with an SS Sonderkommando at Malkinia, Poland, there leading Jews into gas chambers, witnessing the burial of bodies in mass graves, and witnessing bodies being disinterred and burned. Malkinia, as the CIC appears to learn from HIRTREITER, was a death camp of major significance, as one period of four or five days saw the gassing of 4,000 Jews. This Counter Intelligence Corps document is not easy to dismiss as a fabrication, as it comes with identifying notation which facilitates verification.

However, consulting leading books on the Jewish holocaust, I find that Malkinia is rarely listed in the index, and when it is mentioned at all, it is never as a death camp or a camp employing gas chambers, and not even as a concentration camp or a work camp, but only as a transfer facility.

Hannover wrote:I'd be curious to see how much time he actually served.

There is some information on Hirtreiter's fate on http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/perpetrators.html:
Because of illness Hirtreiter was released from prison in 1977. He spent his last 6 months in an old peoples home in Frankfurt/M.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:09 pm)

Here's a web page that gives a scholarly intellectual analysis of why Hirtreiter was convicted, except that if fails to mention the "bashing babies heads" or "throwing babies" part. That's interesting.

http://www.germanlawjournal.com/article ... 218#fuss10

------------------------------------
At some point, vengeful people realized that he might not get a conviction for just unloading the trains, hence there had to be an atrocity that happened there: the bashing of babies.
-----------------------------------

And here's one that says he took part in a euthanasia program at Hadamar, and he was tried for that, and later went to Treblinka. Of course the web page can't be without an amazing story of kids being hung upside down, and killed, but not before giving brave warning to the inmates!
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/perpetrators.html


HIRTREITER, Josef SS-Scharführer
01/02/1909 - 27/11/1978 (Also nicknamed: "Sepp")

BACKGROUND:
Hirtreiter was born in Bruchsal. After extended elementary school he learned locksmith but didn't pass the final examination. Later he worked as unskilled worker, construction worker and bricklayer. On 1 August 1932 he became member of the NSDAP and SA.
In October 1940 he was ordered to the Hadamar euthanasia centre where he worked in the kitchen and the office (according to his testimony). In summer 1942 he had to join the army. After four weeks back to Hadamar. Then he was ordered to Berlin where Wirth finally transferred him to Lublin. There he became SS-Unterscharführer and was ordered to Treblinka.

SERVICE AT TREBLINKA AND SOBIBOR:
Stationed at Treblinka from October 1942 till October 1943. Mainly duties in Camp II. Also served at Sobibor.
The survivors of Treblinka vividly recalled him for his beastly manner: "In the centre of the roll-call square, a gallows was built and all the prisoners were gathered around it. The commander gave a short speech on the punishment of the escapees, and two boys who were caught trying to escape, were hung naked by their feet while they were still alive and repeatedly beaten The boys called out to the prisoners: 'Jews, escape, because death awaits you also. Pay no attention to the fact that meanwhile you have something to eat. Our fate today is your fate tomorrow'. The Germans whipped their swinging bodies for about half an hour, until the two youngsters were shot by SS-Scharführer Josef Hirtreiter." (Arad, p.262)

FATE:
In October 1943 he was ordered to Italy where he had to join an anti-partisan police unit. After the war he was arrested in July 1946, and accused of having served at the euthanasia centre Hadamar.
He was the first of the Treblinka hangmen to be brought to trial and tried in Frankfurt / Main. On 3 March 1951 he was sentenced to life imprisonment. Among the crimes he was found guilty of were killing many young children aged one to two, during the unloading of the transports, by seizing them by the feet and smashing their heads against the boxcars.
Because of illness Hirtreiter was released from prison in 1977. He spent his last 6 months in an old peoples home in Frankfurt/M.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby jemand » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:18 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:I got this from Ukar.org.
http://www.ukar.org/dersho08.html

You beat me to the punch..
The interrogator's name was 'Jack Friedlander' Will someone please tell me that 'Friedlander" is not a Jewish last name? If it is, it would just be too much for me.

Could be the Americanized version of the German name Friedländer. To find out if it is a Jewish name also, I googled for

"jewish names" friedlander

and the first result was a page titled "Jews and Pornography", so I guess that answers the question :D

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:49 pm)

Hi Jemand: We were posting at the same time. Great minds think alike! I added some to my post, via the edit button, so maybe you were first!

Yes, I checked. Friedlander is a Jewish last name. There's a rabbi with that name, there's a known Jewish photographer with that name, and, are you ready? There's a holocaust and Nazi Germany historian in Tel Aviv University with that name: Saul Friedlander. I was just hoping this name wasn't Jewish because it's just too much for me. Everytime I hear about interrogation there's Jews somehow. In Iraq, possibly at Guantanamo etc. It's just too much for me to see the name "Jack Friedlander" at the bottom of that declassified interrogation sheet. And for a camp called Balkinia or Malkinia which no one even mentions as a gassing camp. It's just too much.

Not to mention that I knew I'd find weirdness if I scratched the surface of this obscure Hilberg reference.


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