Chief Rabbi writes: "Stalin killed more Jews than Hitle

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ClaudiaRothenbach
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Chief Rabbi writes: "Stalin killed more Jews than Hitle

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:45 pm)

A little hope in Germany?
In Germany there was a discussion about a sermon of the archbishop of cologne where he mentioned the infanticide of Bethlehem and the mass murders of Stalin and Hitler in context with the hundreds of thousands abortions that occur in Germany every year. The Central Consistory of Jews in Germany did not like that and the license media as well. They attaced the archbishop. This was the reason why Chief Rabbi Moishe Arye Friedman from Vienna (Austria) wrote a letter to one of the most important newspapaers of Germany (FAZ = Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung). He attaced the attackers - and the license newspaper printed the attack. :D

The most important sentence in his letter is:
Bolschewismus und Stalin, der viel mehr unschuldige Menschen und Juden umgebracht hat als Hitler im Zweiten Weltkrieg, scheinen fast vergessen, wohl weil sich diese Verbrechen nur schlecht instrumentalisieren lassen, um mit ihnen Geschäfte zu machen.

In English this means more or less:
Bolshevism and Stalin, who killed much more innocent people and Jews than Hitler during WW2, seem to be nearly forgotten, possibly because it is not so easy to exploit these crimes to make business with them.

I should say that this is an offense against the 6 M figure, isn't it?

Das Richtige lernen

Als Oberrabbiner der strenggläubigen orthodoxen antizionistischen jüdischen Gemeinde Wiens und Rabbiner mit jahrhundertealten Wurzeln in Deutschland bin ich sehr berührt über die von Kardinal Meisner in seinen Feiertagspredigten geäußerten historischen und theologischen Wahrheiten und seinen Mut, diese mit festen Worten zu äußern. Gestatten Sie mir auch als Leser der F.A.Z. und echter Freund Deutschlands, dem deutschen Volk und der katholischen Kirche alles Gute für das neue Jahr 2005 zu wünschen. Für eine in jeder Hinsicht erfolgreiche Zukunft, von der ich mir insbesondere Frieden und Gerechtigkeit für das Heilige Land erhoffe, für ein vom Zionismus befreites Jerusalem und die Rückkehr aller palästinensischen Flüchtlinge in ihre Heimat.

Andererseits bin ich sehr empört und entsetzt über die verbalen Angriffe gegen Kardinal Meisner und alle Deutschen anläßlich seiner Predigt zum Dreikönigstag. Dazu möchte ich folgendes klarstellen: Die, die den sogenannten Holocaust herbeigeführt haben, waren gerade die Gottlosen, weshalb es besonders wichtig ist, den Gottesbezug in der europäischen Verfassung einzubinden. Heute scheint sich aber fast niemand mehr ernsthaft um die Lehren aus den Verbrechen der Vergangenheit zu kümmern. Bolschewismus und Stalin, der viel mehr unschuldige Menschen und Juden umgebracht hat als Hitler im Zweiten Weltkrieg, scheinen fast vergessen, wohl weil sich diese Verbrechen nur schlecht instrumentalisieren lassen, um mit ihnen Geschäfte zu machen. Auf die problematischen Teile der deutschen Vergangenheit sollte auch nicht nur zu zwielichtigen Zwecken hingewiesen werden, sondern um daraus das Richtige zu lernen, die rechten Schlüsse zu ziehen - und die können nur in einer echten und intensiven Rückkehr zu den guten nationalen Traditionen des Deutschtums und zum aufrichtigen und tiefen Glauben an Gott gehören. Die heutige feierliche Propaganda zielt aber auf eine Erniedrigung des deutschen Volkes und bewirkt so das Gegenteil des eben Gesagten - mit katastrophalen Konsequenzen.
Die Behauptung, daß die Groß- und Urgroßväter der heutigen jungen Deutschen durch die Bank Verbrecher waren, führt zu einer Entwurzelung und Selbstunterschätzung und letztlich zum Versuch, sich von der eigenen nationalen Identität abzuwenden. Diese Entwicklung ist eine große Gefahr für die Zukunft Deutschlands. Wenn Kardinal Meisner einen Zusammenhang zwischen Herodes, Stalin, Hitler und den heutigen Abtreibungen herstellt, ist dies hingegen aus unserer religiösen Sicht völlig legitim und richtig. Die verbalen Attacken dagegen und die ungeheuren Methoden, mit denen versucht wird, den mutigen Prediger mundtot zu machen, stellen eine grobe Verletzung der Menschenrechtskonvention der Europäischen Union des Artikel 9 (Glaubensfreiheit) und auch Artikel 10 (Meinungsfreiheit) dar! Ich schäme mich, daß solches Unrecht im Namen des Judentums und durch Leute, die den gleichen Namen wie ich tragen, begangen wird.

Darüber hinaus ist es hoch an der Zeit, daß das deutsche Volk einen recht verstandenen Nationalstolz wiederentdeckt, sich zur in so vielen, guten und großartigen Geschichte Deutschlands bekennt und zu seinem überlieferten Glauben zurückfindet. Nur auf diesem Weg entsteht wieder jenes geistige Klima, das für ausreichenden Nachwuchs nötig ist. Als Vater von sieben Kindern wünsche ich auch dem deutschen Volk herzlichst, daß es zu einem solchen geistigen Klima finden möge, um sich vor einer Überfremdung zu schützen, die eigene Identität auch in Zukunft zu bewahren und der eigenen Jugend eine unbelastete und hoffnungsfrohe Zukunftsperspektive zu ermöglichen.

Oberrabbiner Moishe Arye Friedman, Wien
Text: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 19.01.2005, Nr. 15 / Seite 7

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:20 pm)

We had already picked up on this story.
German Cardinal Does Not Apologize for Abortion-Holocaust Comparison but Regrets Misinterpretation

COLOGNE, January 12, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A press release clarifying the abortion-holocaust comparison made by German Cardinal Joachim Meisner in a recent homily has been taken for an apology. However, there was no apology for the comparison made but only an expressed regret that the comments were misinterpreted.

Several news organizations ran with headlines such as ‘German Catholic Leader Apologizes for Abortion-Holocaust Comparisons’, ‘Archbishop regrets comparing abortion to Holocaust’, ‘Bishop sorry for abortion, Holocaust comparison’. However, nowhere in the release from the archdiocese does the Archbishop of Cologne suggest that the comparison was inaccurate.

The Cardinal’s German-language release clarifies that the statement he made in a January 6 homily stating that “first there was Herod, who ordered the children of Bethlehem to be killed, then there was Hitler and Stalin among others, and today unborn children are being killed in their millions.” The release notes that the quotation came in the midst of explaining that “When man makes himself Lord over life, others lose their lives.”

In his sermon the Cardinal said that since God is the only Lord of life, when man does not recognize he is not the center of the universe, or see and accept his limitations, attacks on life such as the holocaust and abortion take place. He noted that “Abortion and Euthanasia are the results of these arrogant revolts against God,” and offences against the first commandment.

The original statement was attacked vehemently by pro-abortion political parties but also by Jewish groups, one of which went so far as to threaten a lawsuit against the Cardinal. The president of the Central Council for Jews in Germany, Paul Spiegel (photo), said the cardinal had insulted the millions of victims of the Holocaust and that he was considering taking the matter to court.

Condemnation came even from groups some may have expected to be onside. The ecumenical movement Initiative Kirche told the press, “Meisner has completely lost his authority as a bishop and has publicly done a great wrong to the Catholic Church and to dialogue between Jews and Christians."

In the release, Cardinal Meisner said, “If I would even have suspected that my reference to Hitler could have been so misunderstood, I would have omitted it. I am sorry that it came to this.” He allowed that in the documentation of the sermon the reference to Hitler’s name would be omitted. Therefore the comparisons between Herod’s killing of the innocents at the time of Christ, and Stalin’s war crimes, to abortion would be retained. As would the point of the homily: “When man makes himself Lord over life, others lose their lives.”

The release also noted tragically: “Today, there exists nearly universal acceptance that man can decide on the right to life of unborn children.”

Pro-life leaders have suggested that the comparison between abortion and the other atrocities throughout history are not only appropriate but necessary. “In today’s relativistic times, it seems the only evil which still touches people whose hearts have grown cold are the atrocities of Hitler. The comparison not only fits like a glove, but is necessary to bring people out of their blissfully ignorant slumber,” Jim Hughes of the International Right to Life Federation told LifeSiteNews.com.


http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jan/05011206.html


The president of the Central Council for Jews in Germany, Paul Spiegel (photo), said...he was considering taking the matter to court.


Of whom does this empty threat remind you?

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:46 pm)

I'm not sure that it can be taken as an offense against the 6 million figure. This Rabbi might still believe the figure but accept that Stalin killed more people, which I don't think is even questioned by the establishment.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:11 pm)

@Hebden: Thanks for the archbishops story in English.

@ Richard: You are right - the chief rabbi did not say it totally clear. But I think that he very well thought about his words. He could have said: "Stalin killed more people then Hitler". That is the official opinion. But he said: "Stalin, who killed much more innocent people and Jews than Hitler". Why didn't he just write "innocent people"? Jews are also people.

It looks like he accepts the results of Sanning (1982) who found that under the responsibility of Germany 300,000 Jews died whereas under SU responsibility 1.2M Jews died.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:21 pm)

That's a good point. Specifically mentioning that Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler must mean at the very least that he doesn't believe the 6 million figure.

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Postby The wonderer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:03 am)

Bolshevism and Stalin, who killed much more innocent people and Jews than Hitler during WW2, seem to be nearly forgotten, possibly because it is not so easy to exploit these crimes to make business with them. And we all know what/who a (disproportionally) high number of Bolsheviks were, don't we. Jews killing Jews??? Surely not.

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Postby Science Over Superstition » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:30 am)

I have to say that taking a fresh look at the holocaust has made me doubt a lot of other supposed mass murders, including those commited by Stalin.

Is there any proof that he killed millions of Ukranians? I see this pointed out on dozens of Revisionist websites but I don't see good scientific evidence offered to back it up.

SOS!

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Postby Juan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:35 pm)

Good point, I'm curious too. At least about the extension of the massacres and famines.

Could this huge numbers (10's of millions) be connected somehow with the jewish purges that Stalin did in the 50's?

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:38 pm)

The wonderer wrote:Jews killing Jews??? Surely not.

At the beginning (1917) most Bolshevics were Jewish. But in the 1930s the Bolshevics of the first hour were sentenced and most of them executed. Hundreds of thousands. Even the Jew Trotsky was murdered in Mexico.

I am not sure if there were so many Jews in leading positions in the Soviet Union during the war.

Sanning (The Dissolution ..., 1983) writes that Stalin killed a lot of polish Jews that fled from the Germans in 1939 (to East-Poland) as well as 1941 (to the Soviet Union).

Possibly Friedman talks about these two groups of Jews.

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Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:42 am)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:A little hope in Germany?
In Germany there was a discussion about a sermon of the archbishop of cologne where he mentioned the infanticide of Bethlehem and the mass murders of Stalin and Hitler in context with the hundreds of thousands abortions that occur in Germany every year. The Central Consistory of Jews in Germany did not like that and the license media as well. They attaced the archbishop. This was the reason why Chief Rabbi Moishe Arye Friedman from Vienna (Austria) wrote a letter to one of the most important newspapaers of Germany (FAZ = Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung). He attaced the attackers - and the license newspaper printed the attack. :D

The most important sentence in his letter is:
Bolschewismus und Stalin, der viel mehr unschuldige Menschen und Juden umgebracht hat als Hitler im Zweiten Weltkrieg, scheinen fast vergessen, wohl weil sich diese Verbrechen nur schlecht instrumentalisieren lassen, um mit ihnen Geschäfte zu machen.

In English this means more or less:
Bolshevism and Stalin, who killed much more innocent people and Jews than Hitler during WW2, seem to be nearly forgotten, possibly because it is not so easy to exploit these crimes to make business with them.

All that is said here is that it is claimed that Stalin killed "...much more innocent people and Jews than Hitler during WW2..." This does not necessarily mean that Stalin was responsible for more Jews being killed than Hitler supposedly was. Certainly it is generally believed that Stalin was responsible for exterminating many more anti-communists (including Jews) in absolute terms of mass-murder than the Nazis. Probably, however, that is also as much a gross exaggeration as the "Holocaust", since, once the Cold War started, the world anti-communist forces had a vested interest in painting Stalin as black as possible, at a time when there was hardly any talk about a Jewish "Holocaust", which only became current once the long-term future of Israel became problematic. Would the United States, for instance, have been able to make use of the German rocket scientists, if the current "Holocaust" furore was in force?


I should say that this is an offense against the 6 M figure, isn't it?

Das Richtige lernen

Als Oberrabbiner der strenggläubigen orthodoxen antizionistischen jüdischen Gemeinde Wiens und Rabbiner mit jahrhundertealten Wurzeln in Deutschland bin ich sehr berührt über die von Kardinal Meisner in seinen Feiertagspredigten geäußerten historischen und theologischen Wahrheiten und seinen Mut, diese mit festen Worten zu äußern. Gestatten Sie mir auch als Leser der F.A.Z. und echter Freund Deutschlands, dem deutschen Volk und der katholischen Kirche alles Gute für das neue Jahr 2005 zu wünschen. Für eine in jeder Hinsicht erfolgreiche Zukunft, von der ich mir insbesondere Frieden und Gerechtigkeit für das Heilige Land erhoffe, für ein vom Zionismus befreites Jerusalem und die Rückkehr aller palästinensischen Flüchtlinge in ihre Heimat.

Andererseits bin ich sehr empört und entsetzt über die verbalen Angriffe gegen Kardinal Meisner und alle Deutschen anläßlich seiner Predigt zum Dreikönigstag. Dazu möchte ich folgendes klarstellen: Die, die den sogenannten Holocaust herbeigeführt haben, waren gerade die Gottlosen, weshalb es besonders wichtig ist, den Gottesbezug in der europäischen Verfassung einzubinden. Heute scheint sich aber fast niemand mehr ernsthaft um die Lehren aus den Verbrechen der Vergangenheit zu kümmern. Bolschewismus und Stalin, der viel mehr unschuldige Menschen und Juden umgebracht hat als Hitler im Zweiten Weltkrieg, scheinen fast vergessen, wohl weil sich diese Verbrechen nur schlecht instrumentalisieren lassen, um mit ihnen Geschäfte zu machen. Auf die problematischen Teile der deutschen Vergangenheit sollte auch nicht nur zu zwielichtigen Zwecken hingewiesen werden, sondern um daraus das Richtige zu lernen, die rechten Schlüsse zu ziehen - und die können nur in einer echten und intensiven Rückkehr zu den guten nationalen Traditionen des Deutschtums und zum aufrichtigen und tiefen Glauben an Gott gehören. Die heutige feierliche Propaganda zielt aber auf eine Erniedrigung des deutschen Volkes und bewirkt so das Gegenteil des eben Gesagten - mit katastrophalen Konsequenzen.
Die Behauptung, daß die Groß- und Urgroßväter der heutigen jungen Deutschen durch die Bank Verbrecher waren, führt zu einer Entwurzelung und Selbstunterschätzung und letztlich zum Versuch, sich von der eigenen nationalen Identität abzuwenden. Diese Entwicklung ist eine große Gefahr für die Zukunft Deutschlands. Wenn Kardinal Meisner einen Zusammenhang zwischen Herodes, Stalin, Hitler und den heutigen Abtreibungen herstellt, ist dies hingegen aus unserer religiösen Sicht völlig legitim und richtig. Die verbalen Attacken dagegen und die ungeheuren Methoden, mit denen versucht wird, den mutigen Prediger mundtot zu machen, stellen eine grobe Verletzung der Menschenrechtskonvention der Europäischen Union des Artikel 9 (Glaubensfreiheit) und auch Artikel 10 (Meinungsfreiheit) dar! Ich schäme mich, daß solches Unrecht im Namen des Judentums und durch Leute, die den gleichen Namen wie ich tragen, begangen wird.

Darüber hinaus ist es hoch an der Zeit, daß das deutsche Volk einen recht verstandenen Nationalstolz wiederentdeckt, sich zur in so vielen, guten und großartigen Geschichte Deutschlands bekennt und zu seinem überlieferten Glauben zurückfindet. Nur auf diesem Weg entsteht wieder jenes geistige Klima, das für ausreichenden Nachwuchs nötig ist. Als Vater von sieben Kindern wünsche ich auch dem deutschen Volk herzlichst, daß es zu einem solchen geistigen Klima finden möge, um sich vor einer Überfremdung zu schützen, die eigene Identität auch in Zukunft zu bewahren und der eigenen Jugend eine unbelastete und hoffnungsfrohe Zukunftsperspektive zu ermöglichen.

Oberrabbiner Moishe Arye Friedman, Wien
Text: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 19.01.2005, Nr. 15 / Seite 7

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:22 am)

Is there any proof that he killed millions of Ukranians? I see this pointed out on dozens of Revisionist websites but I don't see good scientific evidence offered to back it up.

Good try, but the unsustainable 'holocau$t' claims are of alleged enormous mass murders in supposedly known, centralized sites.

Heretofore there are no mass graves as alleged to show for it, no verifiable forensic studies, no physical evidence as alleged, and the alleged methods themselves defy laws of science and logic.

Quite a difference from the starvation of Ukrainians, one by one, and the deportation to gulags. The communists were, and the current govt. is, certainly loathe to start digging.

There are quite a few mass graves that have been found, however. see: 'Stalin's War of Extermination', by Joachim Hoffmann. Then recall the thousands upon thousands of Polish victims of communism found at Katyn.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:48 am)

I have to say that taking a fresh look at the holocaust has made me doubt a lot of other supposed mass murders, including those commited by Stalin.

Is there any proof that he killed millions of Ukranians? I see this pointed out on dozens of Revisionist websites but I don't see good scientific evidence offered to back it up.


That's a good point SOS. I read a book on the Stalin Purges by Robert Conquest at university. At the time, politically there was no reason to believe Stalin wasn't a huge murderer. So I read the book, all 500 pages or so, and frankly it didn't convince me. In the book, Conquest tried to show male/female ratios and how the reason there were more females was because of the purges. He mentioned many other angles also, but it just didn't convince me. I asked a professor about it, and he told me to "read The Stalin Purges by Robert Conquest" I was going to tell him that I just did, but then some other student butted in.

It could be that the book wasn't so good.
It could be that if I read it now, it might make more sense.

The reason revisionists mention the purges alot is manifold, but it's also an accepted fact by all historians. But look at the possible political motivations for saying he's a murderer:

1) it made communism appear evil at the right time in the 1950's, perfect for the cold war.

2) It consolidated Kruschev's power in the 50's with his famous speech about the purges.

3) No longer a friend of the Jews, Stalin was then maligned.

I think the purges did happen. I don't know much about it, or the true numbers, and I would call it the "NKVD Purges" more than I would the "Stalin Purges." And it could have had to do with payback for the Ukrainians supporting the Czar against the Jews. And as Hannover mentions, the Katyn forest massacre by the NKVD points to the possibility that it happened. On top of this, when the Nazis invaded communist areas, they found evidence of NKVD killing, but this I don't know much about. This is not for the faint of heart, but there is a photo essay about the Bolsheviks in Latvia, and you can get an idea of how the "purges" could have happened by reading it. It's at:
http://home.parks.lv/leonards/BaigaisGa ... Saturs.htm


The idea that Stalin was against the Jews during or just after WWII is simply untrue. In fact it's victim status from just a different angle. Kevin MacDonald does the best job showing that, in his book Culture of Critique. Just because Stalin killed Trotsky doesn't mean he was going after the Jews. Schindler's list, I believe, adds to this Hollywood fabrication. Why would post-WWII concentration camps for Germans be run by Jews, as is documented in John Sack's book, Eye for an Eye? Why would Stalin have set up governments run by, and staffed by Jews in Poland and Hungary? Why would Stalin allow Molotov to become Premiere since his wife was Jewish?

The rift came when Israel became a state and the myth of Jews' devotion to the universal values of communism was shattered. Imagine yourself in the Soviet Union, surrounded by camerades, believing in the worker's struggle, and all of the sudden your fellow compatriots who happen to be Jewish are cheering due to Israel's expulsion of 600,000 indigineous Palestinians. "Is this not colonialism?" You ask yourself. "Why are they cheering on the colonizers??" In a microcosm, that's how the rift happened.

But MacDonald's book shows how "group evolutionary strategy" is sort of going on behind the scenes. For instance an event that changed history greatly was when the Jewish woman Fanya Kaplan (yes, we've all heard the last name Kaplan) shot Lenin early in the revolution. He never really recovered, and ultimately died from this a couple years later, and then Stalin came to power. Imagine history without Kaplan's assassination attempt! When Kaplan shot him, Lenin didn't go to the hospital, but instead when to the Kremlin. He was afraid of getting assassinated in the hospital. Draw your own conclusions, but maybe you've noticed the high percentage of Jewish doctors. With his death, a Jew, Trotsky, would have assumed leadership. Is that why he avoided the hospital? The point I'm insinuating, is that with all the universal concepts of communism floating around, there was a ruthless Jewish "ethnic warfare" attempt for total seizure of the USSR. MacDonald doesn't outright say that, but you can interpret things that way. In fact Kaplan mentioned all these universal concepts regarding why she did it. "Universalism" as smoke and mirrors for "group evolutionary strategy." Without reading MacDonald, this probably won't make much sense.


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