Answer to Jonathan Swift on Diesels...

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Answer to Jonathan Swift on Diesels...

Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:04 pm)

With the exception of Mr. Berg himself, I doubt if anyone is more knowledgeable on the "diesel problem" than me. Therefore, here is my response to some questions previously posed...

Jonathan Swift wrote:[...]
Especially when it comes to technical details that non-technical people are not necessarily familiar with, witnesses can be given the benefit of doubt.

A classic example is the use of diesel engines for gassing, the mainstay of acclaimed Revisionist author Friedrich Paul Berg, regarding which another Revisionist, Michael Mills from Australia, took the comparatively reasonable approach shown hereafter. In a discussion on the usenet,

Michael Mills wrote:
[…]"The data at the COHQ site imply that the exhaust of a poorly tuned diesel engine could produce a CO concentration in the air high enough to be reliably lethal. If so, it is possible that poorly tuned diesel engines were used at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka for homicidal purposes. If that is the case, it should be reflected in testimony, ie there should be accounts of experiments with the tuning to find the setting that would produce a sufficiently high level of CO in the exhaust. Perhaps this is a topic for further research. Alternatively, it is possible that gasoline engines were used, but that would mean that a number of witnesses, such as Gerstein, were mistaken." [My emphasis. ~Scott][…]

Source of quote:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... senet.9806


If this is Mr. Mills' opinion, as reasonable as he is, he is wrong here.

For one thing, the COHQ site doesn't say this; they have no data on "mistuned" diesels and carbon monoxide. There is no such animal! And the Nizkor link to COHQ doesn't even work.

Diesel engines can't be mistuned in a conventional sense. This "mistuning" actually involves limiting other regulated pollutants like nitrous oxides, particulates, etc., and certainly not carbon monoxide, which is ALWAYS low for ANY diesel engine, provided that it is not straining under an overloaded condition.

Jonathan Swift wrote:Incidentally, I know of no witnesses other than Gerstein who described the gassing engine used at any of the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps as a diesel engine. Gerstein, while technically knowledgeable enough to tell one type of engine from the other, doesn’t seem to have actually seen the engine he was talking about.

We don't know that Gerstein didn't see the engine. He says that he saw Captain Wirth whip or beat the Ukrainian mechanic on the face for failing to get the engine going. He specifically says "diesel" and he saw the gassing and even timed it with a stopwatch.

He wouldn't need to even see the engine to know it was a diesel. I would know it was a diesel running from the other end of the camp (with some slight hyperbole) by sound and smell alone. Gerstein was a mining engineer and certainly knew what a diesel engine was, and probably that they are operated openly in mines. If Gerstein made a mistake, then this was an egregious one.

Personally, I feel that there was a diesel engine in the Belzec and Treblinka camps but that they were electrical generators.

I find the rest of the Gerstein tale equally puzzling, including Dr. Pfannenstiel's description elsewhere of the gassed as having blue corpses instead of pink--as would be the case with carbon monoxide poisoning (and therefore any gasoline engine). Rudolf Höß simply says carbon monoxide from engines, still inconsistent with Pfannenstiel's blue bodies.

Jonathan Swift wrote:In his expert opinion submitted at the Irving-Lipstadt trial,

Christopher Browning wrote:
[…] "Once again, human memory is imperfect. The testimonies of both survivors and other witnesses to the events in Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka are no more immune to forgetfulness, error, exaggeration, distortion, and repression than eyewitness accounts of other events in the past. They differ, for instance, on how long each gassing operation took, on the dimensions and capacity of the gas chambers, on the number of undressing barracks, and on the roles of particular individuals. Gerstein, citing Globocnik, claimed the camps used diesel motors, but witnesses who actually serviced the engines in Belzec and Sobibor (Reder and Fuchs) spoke of gasoline engines.[my emphasis] Once again, however, without exception all concur on the vital issue at dispute, namely that Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were death camps whose primary purpose was to kill in gas chambers through the carbon monoxide from engine exhaust, and that the hundreds of thousands of corpses of Jews killed there were first buried and then later cremated."[…]

Source of quote:
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/e ... 05.asp#5.4


The only reliable account (i.e., having sufficient detail) of a gasoline motor used in any gassing operation comes from SS-Scharführer Erich Fuchs at Sobibor (cf. Yitzhak Arad) who testified in the Sobibor-Bolender trial in Düsseldorf.

However, there is some convergence-of-evidence on the absurd diesel-gassing claims from the 1943 Krasnodar and Kharkov warcrimes trials in the Soviet Union. In these trials "Saurer murder-vans" are said to have been used, which are always diesels as near as I can determine, and are further described by the court specifically as "diesels." Autopsy reports referred to show death by carbon monoxide, an incongruous circumstance to say the least.

Common sense would say that diesel engines would make a better execution--but that would simply be wrong, hence the story itself is called into question for its lurid and improbable detail.

Regarding the Reinhardt camps, Eichmann at his trial in Jerusalem described the engines as coming from submarines or tanks. Other witnesses have said salvaged tank engines and usually from Soviet tanks. Aside from the impractical size of a submarine engine, which would certainly be a diesel, all Soviet tank engines after 1941 were the model W-2 diesel of about 500 horsepower. However, it is possible that a gasoline engine from a older, lighter Soviet tank was used, or a simple gasoline truck motor (as Fuchs indeed described it).

At the Eichmann trial, witness Eliahu Rosenberg (who also testified against Demjanjuk in Israel) described a diesel engine at Treblinka from the fuel (Ropa oil) that it used:

Rosenberg wrote:THE EICHMANN TRIAL: PROCEEDINGS Session No. 66 06-Jun-1961 p. 1213

Testimony of Eliahu Rosenberg of Treblinka

Q. Did you witness the whole process of the extermination?

A. I saw the entire process.

Q. Describe it briefly to the Court.

A. The people arrived from this famous "Himmelstrasse," which led from Camp 1 to Camp 2. In the Himmelstrasse, SS men, the entire staff of Camp 2, stood there with dogs, with whips and bayonets. The people walked past in silence. That was at the beginning, in summer 1942. They did not know where they were going. When they entered the gas chambers, two Ukrainians stood next to the entrance — one was Ivan and the other was Nikolai. They introduced the gas.

Q. Where did the gas come from?

A. The gas came from an engine.

Q. They did not bring it from outside — it was produced on the spot?

A. It was Ropa — Ropa gas.

Q. Was it manufactured by an engine, from the exhaust of a diesel engine?

A. Yes. It was gas from an engine. They put in Ropa, which was a kind of oil, a crude oil, and the fumes entered the gas chambers. The people who were the last to enter the gas chambers, the very last, received stabs in the bodies from the bayonets, since the last persons already saw what was going on inside and did not want to enter. Four hundred people were put into one small gas chamber. And when they forced them in, they, on their part, pressed inwards and in this way reached the full capacity, so that only with difficulty could the outer door of the chamber be shut.

When they shut them in, we were standing on the outside. We only heard cries of "Shema Yisrael," "Father," "Mother"; thirty-five minutes later they were dead. [Emphasis added.]

Source of quote:
http://www.ukar.org/eichma02.shtml#Rosenberg1212


Unless the engine (presumably an electric-generator for the camp) was a special multifuel spark-ignition engine that was capable of burning lighter grades of diesel oil, then it was simply a DIESEL engine, i.e., a compression-ignition engine incapable of practically generating carbon monoxide.

The important point is the type of engine/ignition, not the type of fuel. For example, some U.S. Army trucks have multifuel diesel engines that can burn gasoline or diesel oil, but these would not work for a gaschamber either because the engine is still compression-ignition. It therefore ALWAYS operates at an excess of air, as shown by the simplified graph below, except under high loads (cf 1941 Holtz-Elliott paper cited by F. P. Berg in his Diesel paper).

Best Regards,
Scott

Holtz & Elliott "Engine B" Test-Table (simplified)

Image
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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:03 am)

Scott wrote: The only reliable account (i.e., having sufficient detail) of a gasoline motor used in any gassing operation comes from SS-Scharführer Erich Fuchs[…]or a simple gasoline truck motor (as Fuchs indeed described it).


What did SS-Scharführer Erich Fuchs say exactly?
:D
The Holocaust hoaxsters exaggerate and embellish a 60+ year old event in order to abuse the Palestinians and rob them of their land, while claiming a free pass for their barbaric conduct on account of the "holocaust".

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:20 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Scott wrote: The only reliable account (i.e., having sufficient detail) of a gasoline motor used in any gassing operation comes from SS-Scharführer Erich Fuchs[…]or a simple gasoline truck motor (as Fuchs indeed described it).

What did SS-Scharführer Erich Fuchs say exactly?
:D

Mind you, I'm not saying that what Fuchs says is true--merely that he provides sufficent detail so we can establish that he was indeed talking about a gasoline engine.

This is from a previous thread: attempted switch from alleged diesel 'gassings' to gasoline.

Sgt. Fuchs wrote:As ordered by Wirth, I drove an LKW [truck ~Scott] to Lvov, fetched a gas motor [English translation: gassing motor?, or gasoline motor? ~Scott] and transported it to Sobibor. When I arrived at Sobibor, close to the railway station I saw a tract of land with a concrete construction and some other solid buildings. The Sonderkommando there were commanded by Thomalla. Other members of the SS who attended were F. B. Stangl, F. Schwartz, Kurt Bolender, and others. We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine (presumably a tank or tractor motor) at least 200 horsepower (V-motor, 8 cylinders, water cooled). We installed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.

I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The chemist, whom I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring instruments to test the concentration of gas.

[Emphases mine. ~Scott]

Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, 1987; pp. 31-32.

Adalbert Rückerl, NS-Vernichtungslager in Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse, DTV Dokumente; München, 1977; p. 163.


Fuchs goes on to say,

Fuchs wrote:Following this, a gassing experiment was carried out. If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber by the above-mentioned SS members and by Ukrainian auxiliaries. When the women were shut up in the gas chamber I and B [Bolender ~Arad] set the motor in motion. The motor functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched from "Neutral" (Freiauspuff) to "Cell" (Zelle), so that the gas was conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor on a definite speed so that it was unecessary henceforth to press on the gas [throttle? ~Scott]. About ten minutes later the thirty or forty women were dead. The chemist and the SS leader gave the sign to stop the motor. I packed my tools and saw how the corpses were removed The transportation was done with a lorry trail that led from the gas chambers to a remote plot.

Ibid.

I would like to ask Fuchs a few questions myself, such as how exactly he mounted the engine to the concrete floor and how exactly the chemist tested the gas. Aspects of the story do not ring true. And anywhere the word gas is used, I prefer to see the German original because of the confusion with the American lingo where "gas" can mean gasoline or even throttle. One aspect that does seem reasonable is that only 30-40 were killed above, not fantastic numbers like 600 and so on.
:)
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:40 pm)

There can be little doubt that the Fuchs account is a crass forgery, as the 'gas vans' tales are nothing but blantant fraud consisting of such creative forgeries, and peculiar "confessions" & "testimonies". I suggest:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=73
and:
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndwagon.html

Goebbels even had this to say:
Dr. Hans Fritzsche, a colleague of Goebbels, testified that he first
heard of 'gas vans' following the Russian recapture of Kharkov
(1943-44). The Russians at that point conducted a series of show trials
where allegations and "confessions" were made about 'gassings'.
He presented the gassing story to Goebbels in a report. Dr. Goebbel's
response was explicit; "The gas trucks that they mentioned in the
Russian trial were a product of somebody's fevered imagination, without
any basis whatever in fact." (IMT, vol. xvii, pages 200f)
- source: 'Nuremberg, the Last Battle', page 18, by David Irving


For those who haven't seen it, the most significant testimony to emerge from the Kharkov show trial is related by Samuel Crowell:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Kharkov2.html
IN DECEMBER 1943, the Soviets held another atrocity trial, this time in Kharkov, a city in the Eastern Ukraine that had changed hands several times during the war. There were repetitions of the gas van testimony given at the Krasnodar trial, and, on December 16, 1943, an interesting description of Auschwitz given by SS Major General Heinisch.
Prosecutor: Tell the court about your talk with Somann.

Heinisch: Somann told me that death caused by gas poisoning was painless and more humane. He said that in the gas van death was very quick, but actually death came not in twelve seconds but much more slowly and was accompanied by great pain. Somann told me about the camp in Auschwitz in Germany where the gassing of prisoners was carried out. The people were told that they were to be transferred elsewhere, and foreign workers were told that they would be repatriated and were sent under this pretext to bath-houses. Those who were to be executed first entered a place with a signboard with "Disinfection" on it and there they were undressed -- the men separately from the women and children. Then they were ordered to proceed to another place with a signboard "Bath." While the people were washing themselves special valves were opened to let in the gas which caused their death. Then the dead people were burned in special furnaces in which about 200 bodies could be burned simultaneously.

[Heinisch went on to say that Somann was the Chief of the Security in the Breslau area, which is the general area where Auschwitz is located, that gas executions took place only in camps on German soil, and further revealed that the decision to carry out executions "by means of gas poisoning" was made at a conference in the Summer of 1942 which Hitler, Himmler, and Kaltenbrunner attended.]

Heinisch's testimony is remarkable in several respects. First of all, we have by December, 1943, at a trial under Soviet auspices, a clear albeit erroneous narrative of the gassing claim at Auschwitz, in a form more or less similar to the standard narrative and in a publication that received wide distribution. Heinisch does not specify the ethnicity of the victims, but rather prefers to speak of foreign workers and their families: this at a time when large numbers of Ukrainians were being evacuated to the Reich for labor and were being subjected to the indignities of communal showers.

Heinisch's description of the gassing process is erroneous and therefore in attempting to account for it we could conceive of a link back to the unpublished narrative concerning Auschwitz in May [1942] or to other rumors that may have been circulating. But it is important to note that the narrative contains details about bathing and disinfection that we have not encountered prior to this point. It is also important to reflect on how it would be possible for Heinisch, a district commissar at Melitopol in occupied Russia, and Somann, an SS chief in Breslau, to be informed of a process that the postwar trials have assured us were carried out in the greatest secrecy.

NOTE It is also remarkable that Martin Gilbert, in Auschwitz and the Allies, completely ignores Heinisch's testimony about Auschwitz, even though he references the Kharkov trial, references The People's Verdict, and sought to present in that book a complete narrative of how information about Auschwitz was acquired. It is also remarkable that Heinisch's narrative precedes the 1944 constructions of the Auschwitz narrative.


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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:18 pm)

Scott wrote: I prefer to see the German original because of the confusion with the American lingo where "gas" can mean gasoline or even throttle.


German = English
Vergasungsmotor = combustion engine
Benzinmotor = gasoline engine
The surnames of accused were not spelled out, only the first letter of the surname was given.


I checked the German text in Rückert’s NS-Vernichtungslager and offer a corrected translation of the Fuchs statement:

Sgt. Fuchs wrote:As ordered by Wirth, I drove a truck to Lvov, picked up a combustion engine and transported it to Sobibor. When I arrived at Sobibor, close to the railway station I saw an area with a concrete buiding and some other solid houses. The Sonderkommando there was commanded by Thomalla. Other members of the SS who attended were F., B., Stangl, F., Schwartz, and others. We unloaded the engine. It was a heavy Russian gasoline engine (presumably a tank or a truck engine) of at least 200 horsepower (V-motor, 8 cylinders, water cooled). We placed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the piping.

I then tested the engine. It did not work right away. I repaired the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The chemist, whom I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with a measuring instrument in order to test the concentration of the gas.

Following this, a test gassing was carried out. If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewesses had to undress in a roofed open area in the vicinity of the gas chambers and were driven by the above-mentioned SS members and by Ukrainian auxiliaries into the gas chamber. When the women were locked up in the gas chamber I and B. operated the engine. It was first running in neutral. We were both standing next to the engine and switched from "free air exhaust" to "chamber" , so that the gas was conducted to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I set the engine to a definite fixed speed, so that it was unnecessary henceforth to operate the gas throttle. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead. The chemist and the SS leader gave the sign to stop the engine. I packed my tools and saw how the corpses were removed. The transportation was done with a lorry train, that led from the vicinity of the gas chambers to a remote area.


The man must have had an excellent memory in order to remember all these details after 20 years.

Erich Fuchs was senteced to 4 years in prison because of assisting in the murder of an undetermined huge number, but at least 79,000 people. The time he spent in custody during the investigations was to be be subtracted.

In the latest of Rudolf's magazine VffG, which came out last month F.Berg wrote an essay "Giftgas ueber alles" (Poison Gas over everything else). In it he also wrote about diesel engines.

I will come back to it tomorrow.
:D
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:00 am)

Sailor wrote:
Scott wrote: I prefer to see the German original because of the confusion with the American lingo where "gas" can mean gasoline or even throttle.

German = English
Vergasungsmotor = combustion engine
Benzinmotor = gasoline engine
The surnames of accused were not spelled out, only the first letter of the surname was given.

I checked the German text in Rückert’s NS-Vernichtungslager and offer a corrected translation of the Fuchs statement:

Thanks. A Google search on "Vergasungsmotor" did not yield any hits except for gassing-motor or gasification-motor in relation to the Holocaust. I found no non-Holocaust reference or to a "Vergasungsmotor" being a combustion engine, only "Verbrennungsmotor."

This is how one Holo-site has Fuchs' statement in German:

Browning wrote:Footnotes to: Evidence for the Implementation of the Final Solution. Christopher Browning.

[139] . Testimony of Erich Fuchs, printed in: NS-Venichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Stafprozesse, ed. by Adalbert Rückerl (Munich, 1977). p. 166.

(Ich fuhr auf Anweisung des Wirth mit einem LKW nach Lemberg und holte dort einen Vergasungsmotor ab, den ich nach Sobibor transportierte. ...Wir luden den Motor ab. Es handelte sich um einen schweren russischen Benzinmotor (vermutl. Panzermotor oder Motor einer Zugmaschine) mit mindestens 200 PS (V-Motor, 8 Zyl., wassergekühlt). Wir stellten den Motor auf einen Betonsockel und errichteten die Verbindung zwischen Auspuff und Rohrleitung. Alsdann probierte ich den Motor aus. Er funktionere zunächst nicht. Ich reparierte die Zündung und die Ventile mit dem Erfolg, dass der Motor schliesslich ansprang. Der Chemiker, den ich schon aus Belzec kannte, begab sich mit einem Messgerät in die Gaskammer, um die Gaskonzentration zu prüfen. Im Anschluss daran wurde eine Probevergasung durchgeführt. Ich glaube mich zu entsinnen, dass 30-40 Frauen in einer Gaskammer vergast worden sind.)

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/browningfn6.htm


Note how in this abridged version the word used for the victims is Frauen (women) instead of Jüdin (Jewess). The word Jewess might seem patronizing to Anglophones so I'm wondering what word Fuchs actually used: women or Jewesses...

Browning wrote:Erich Fuchs, who was stationed first at Belzec, gave the following testimony concerning the construction of the gassing facilities at Sobibor.

On Wirth's instructions I drove to Lemberg in a truck and picked up a carburator engine, that I transported back to Sobibor. ...We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian gasoline engine (probably a tank engine or tractor engine) with at least 200 PS (V-motor, 8 cylinder, water-cooled). We placed the motor on the a concrete base and installed the connection between the exhaust and the pipeline. Then we tested the motor. At first it did not work. I repaired the ignition and the valve with the result that the motor finally started up. The chemist, whom I already knew from Belzec, went into the gas chamber with a measuring instrument in order to test the concentration of gas. In conclusion a test gassing was then conducted. As best I remember, some 30-40 women were gassed in the chamber. [139]

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/browning5.htm


Note that in his text Browning has translated "Vergasungsmotor" as "carburator [sic] engine."

Sailor wrote:In the latest of Rudolf's magazine VffG, which came out last month F.Berg wrote an essay "Giftgas ueber alles" (Poison Gas over everything else). In it he also wrote about diesel engines.

It sounds like an interesting article. He was orginally going to give that paper at the 2002 IHR conference or in Beirut before that. I wouldn't mind reading it.
:)
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:02 am)

Hannover wrote:There can be little doubt that the Fuchs account is a crass forgery,

I don't see how it can be dismissed without analysis just because we don't like its contents.
:)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:40 pm)

Scott said:
I don't see how it can be dismissed without analysis just because we don't like its contents.


There has been analysis and the result is called: lack of credibility:

- we have known forgeries relating to the issue of diesel/gas 'gas vans' (see my previous post)...and ofcourse, many aspects of the so called 'holocau$t'

- the very idea of a 'Russian tank engine' and a 'submarine engine' being used for mass murder is preposterous

- the idea that the Germans would use scarce fuel for what could be achieved with a bullet is preposterous

- there is no physical evidence for gas vans or carbon monoxide/diesel gas chambers..nor the resultant human remains said to have been buried in enormous mass graves, exhumed, and cremated...as if such a process would eliminate all human remains (of millions) and the eliminate evidence of such enormous pits that are alleged

However, one can dismiss without hesitation any text which alleges absurdity; we don't need in depth analysis to dismiss text which says the moon is made of cheese. :wink:

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Postby Dan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:21 pm)

However, one can dismiss without hesitation any text which alleges absurdity; we don't need in depth analysis to dismiss text which says the moon is made of cheese.



It all depends on who you want to influence. Hebden is right, we will have to re-construct revisionism totally. Those who deny completely mass murder, and at least experimental homicidal gassings, and mass shootings are not being influential at all, and the numbers are not increasing.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:28 pm)

Dan said:
It all depends on who you want to influence. Hebden is right, we will have to re-construct revisionism totally. Those who deny completely mass murder, and at least experimental homicidal gassings, and mass shootings are not being influential at all, and the numbers are not increasing.


I'll accept anything there that can be supported by credible evidence, just like everything else.

There's a bit of a strawman in what Dan says too. I readily admit that atrocities occurred ... on both sides...that is war, unfortunately every war has seen atrocities. Germans were guilty of considerably less than the Allies. No evidence has been presented to show otherwise.

"Experimental gassings"? Show me the evidence Dan, got it? Bring it. I maintain it will be the same pathetic quality as all the so called "evidence" for gassings.

Mass shotings? I readily admit that illegal terrorists (partisans) were executed, no problem, international law provided for such executions.

Mass shooting? Just how big were these alleged "mass shootings" Dan? Tens of thousands as the standard story states? Do tell. Immense allegations at known sites, but zero evidence on the ground; evidence which would necessarily be there. No evidence = no "mass shootings".

There is no need to throw the Believers a bone in the hopes of appeasement. I apply the same criteria for all allegations. If allegations measure up to scrutiny, then no problem. So far the standard story has failed on all counts.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, Dan. You can't back it up.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:57 pm)

This is the German version of Fuchs' statement according to Rückerl in NS-Vernichtungslager:
Ich fuhr auf Anweisung des Wirth mit einem LKW nach Lemberg und holte dort einen Vergasungsmotor ab, den ich nach Sobibor transportierte.

Bei meiner Ankunft in Sobibor fand ich in der Nähe des Bahnhofs ein Gelände vor, auf dem sich ein Betonbau und mehrere feste Häuser befanden. Das dortige Sonderkommando wurde von Thomalla geleitet. Als weiter SS-Angehörige waren F., B., Stangl, F., Schwarz, B. u. a. anwesend. Wir luden den Motor ab. Es handelte sich um einen schweren russischen Benzinmotor (vermutl. Panzermotor oder Motor einer Zugmaschine) mit mindestens 200 PS (V-Motor, 8-Zyl., wassergekühlt). Wir stellten den Motor auf einen Betonsockel und errichteten die Verbindung zwischen Auspuff und Rohrleitung. Alsdann probierte ich den Motor aus. Er funktionierte zunächst nicht. Ich reparierte die Zündung und Ventile mit dem Erfolg, daß der Motor schließlich ansprang. Der Chemiker, den ich schon aus Belzec kannte, begab sich mit einem Meßinstrument in die Gaskammer, um die Gaskonzentration zu prüfen. Im Anschluß daran wurde eine Probevergasung durchgeführt. Ich glaube mich zu entsinnen, daß 30-40 Frauen in einer Gaskammer vergast worden sind. Die Jüdinnen mußten sich auf einem überdachten Freigelände (Waldboden) in der Nähe der Gaskammer entkleiden und wurden von den vorbezeichneten SS-Angehörigen sowie von ukrainischen Hilswilligen in die Gaskammer getrieben. Als die Frauen in der Gaskammer eingeschlossen waren, habe ich mit B. den Motor bedient. Der Motor lief zunächst im Leerlauf. Wir standen beide am Motor und schalteten von “Freiauspuff auf Zelle”, so daß die Gase in die Kammer geleitet wurden. Auf Anregung des Chemikers stellte ich den Motor auf eine bestimmte Drehzahl ein, so daß ein Gasgeben künftig nicht erforderlich war. Nach etwa 10 Minuten waren die 30-40 Frauen tot. Der Chemiker und die SS-Führer gaben das Zeichen den Motor abzustellen. Ich packte mein Werkzeug ein und sah, wie die Leichen abtransportiert wurden. Der Transport wurde mit einer Lorenbahn durchgeführt, die von der Nähe der Gaskammer zu einem entfernten Gelände verlief.


Rueckerl quoted from the trial protocol. I don't think that he morphed it.

These are my comments about the testimony of Fuchs as reproduced in Rückerl’s book:


The Sonderkommando there was commanded by Thomalla. Other members of the SS who attended were F., B., Stangl, F., Schwartz, and others.

In his testimony Fuchs implicated some of his former comrades: Thomalla, Stangl, Schwartz, F., B. and F. Did these people confirm the statement of Fuchs?
Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

We placed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the piping

This is not so easy. That engine cannot be handled like a sack of potatoes and probaly weighed about a thousand pounds or more. Did they use some kind of lifting device?
An engine like this has to be anchored to its foundation to prevent it from moving, with at least 4 ¾”-anchor bolts which have to be precisely put into place before pouring concrete into the form of the pad.
The engine exhaust is usually flanged, which requires a special pipe connection and which then leads to a muffler before it is connected to any piping.
Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

It did not work right away. I repaired the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running.

The ignition of a gasoline engine consists of many parts: the coil, distributor, rotor, harness and spark plugs. Further large engines can have different types of ignition: by circuit interruption, spark plugs or glow plugs. Large engine can have several different ignition systems.
In order to adjust the engine valves and the ignition timing with a feeler gauge, wrench and scroboscope requires knowledge of the values to be adjusted to: the engine manual.
This being a Russian engine, it stands to reason that the manual would be written in Russian. Did Fuchs understand this? And how did he get the spareparts for the engine?
Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

The Jewesses had to undress

I never figured out this phobia of the SS to undress people before they were to be murdered. Does anybody here know?

It was first running in neutral.

This statement implies, that the transmission box with clutch and gear-shifting mechanism came together with the engine. A rather odd way to ship an engine.
Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

We were both standing at the engine and switched from "free air exhaust" to "chamber"

This I would like to see. What it indicates is, that the exhaust fumes, after leaving the engine and the muffler, go into a valve arrangement by which the fumes can either be directed into the free air or into the “gas chamber”. The exhaust fumes are very hot, (Try touching the exhaust of your car after it was in operation!) how did they handle the valves?
Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

But he said:
Sicherlich ist es nicht primär die Aufgabe der Justiz, Geschichtsforschung zu treiben oder geschichtliche documentationen zu liefern.
Engl.:
It certainly is not the primary task of the judiciary to do history research or to furnish historic documents.


You got that right, buddy.

Dr. jur. Adalbert Rückerl is a German senior states prosecutor who specialized in solving NS crimes. Who “bewältigte die Vergangenheit” (came to terms with the past), and is a fervent believer of the Holocaust extermination myth.

Berg's comments on the diesel exhausts will follow tomorrow.

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:23 am)

Sailor

Another missing element is the fuel system. While a generator might have a fuel tank mounted on the engine, a truck or tank engine would have a separate fuel tank. I see no mention of if the fuel tank was taken out of the truck or tank and delivered with the engine or whether they had to provide one themselves and no mention of hooking up the fuel tank and fuel lines. Also no mention of checking the fuel system since on newly installed engines air in the lines or blockage of the fuel is a common problem.

Second since the engine is water-cooled did they also get the radiator from the tank or truck as well as the associated piping? Also how did they mount this radiator since they did not have the truck or tank to mount it on?

Seem to me that they would have been better off getting a truck and hooking up the exhaust to the Gas chamber since that way they would have all of the auxiliary parts needed to operate the engine. Also if the truck broke down they could have simply driven another truck over and used it. Did they not supposedly have experience with Gassing trucks? That is of course if this was a truck with a Gasoline engine not a Diesel engine since we all know how hard it would have been to kill with Diesel exhaust.

The Holocaust promoters keep saying that the Germans were highly competent and efficient killers but everywhere in the Holocaust story is see decisions made that make no sense from a practical or engineering point of view.


As to the engine that is said to have been used at the camp being in neutral or in gear, it would not matter since with nothing hooked up to the output of the transmission it would not change anything. I do not speak German, could the word mean idle instead of neutral or is there a separate German word that means idle (operate at low speed) rather than neutral (not being in gear). I am trying to give the Holocaust promoters the benefit of the doubt since talking about the engine being at idle makes sense, talking about the engine being in neutral does not.

Any help is appreciated.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:27 pm)

In the last VffG magazine of Rudolf is an article by F. Berg ”Giftgas über alles!” (Poison Gas above everything else!).

Berg writes in this essay among others also about the diesel exhaust fumes and its use for homicidal mass killings. This is a summary. If I misunderstood something, maybe F. Berg can straighten me out.

Diesel-History
Diesel engines were used in Germany underground in coal mines since 1928 to drive heavy machinery, in Great Britain 10 years later.
S. Gilbert of the British National Coal Board analyzed the accident statistics between 1939 to 1975 and wrote:
“[…]An investigation of the accident statistics has shown, that not a single person ever suffered damage, neither temporary nor permanent, […]from exhaust fumes of vehicles driven by diesel engines.”

This does not prove, that mass murder with diesel engines cannot be committed. But it shows, that this is everything but easy.

Another report on this was by Dennis S. Lachtman, director of health techniques of the EIM-CO, machine manufacturer for mining, in »Diesel Exhaust – Health Effects«:
”NO significant human hazards were observed. In over 20 health studies of workers who were exposed to diesel exhaust fumes: diesel bus drivers, diesel lok drivers, as well as mining workers (ore and non-ore). A careful analysis of these studies showed, that no significant health risk could be connected to the influence of diesel exhausts.
In a further epidemiological study by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health about underground mining operations in 22 ore- and non-ore mining shafts the health of 5000 mining workers was investigated. [..]The researchers reported, that the data confirmed the absence of harmful effect from diesel exhaust fumes.«


Each year thousands commit suicide with carbon-monoxide from gasoline engines. But there is no reported suicide committed with diesel engines.
All over the world thousands of truck drivers stay overnight in their truck cabins, with the engine running all night, to air-condition in summer and to heat in winter. Although it happens occasionally, that the exhaust fumes leak out, there is no indication that the truck drivers died or became sick.

[We used for the construction of tunnels for hydro power plants heavy diesel driven boring machines, compressors and drills, with tunnels up to 5 miles long, 10 ft diameter, to no known ill effect to the workers. Sailor].

Internal RPM (speed) Regulation.
(This is getting now a little technical).
The allegation is made, that by giving gas with the engine under no-load, or neutral, with the RPM racing rapidly upwards, the fuel/air ratio, or carbon-monoxide production will be increased and the exhaust fumes made more poisonous.
This is true for a very short time, a few seconds at the most. Each combustion engine has an internal engine speed regulator designed into it by the manufacturer. It will throttle down the fuel supply to the fuel-injectors and reduce the fuel/air ratio before reaching the maximum speed of the engine. The furl/air ratio and consequently the carbon monoxide is about the same at no-load high speed as at low speed
Even if the driver desires a higher fuel/air ration by pressing the gas pedal , the internal speed regulator will prevent this.
The only two ways to increase the fuel/air production is by increasing the load on the diesel, like with an electrical generator, or by throttling the air supply to the engine, with other words to suffocate the engine.
To load mechanically an engine of a tank or a large truck is everything else but easy and quite impractical. Also no “eye-witness” has given any indication of such a device.
To throttle the air supply to the engine is simple. But experiments by British medical researchers have shown, that the production of carbon monoxide is rather low, and that it took over three hours to kill experimental animals. The allegation of a conveyor belt mass murder seems thus rather ridiculous.

Combined Effect of Carbon-Monoxide and Reduced Oxygen Content.
The criticism was made, that the combined effect of carbon-monoxide and reduced oxygen was not considered.
An effective carbon-monoxide ratio can be calculated by multiplying with a factor which reflects the the reduced oxygen content to the normal content (21%). The effects of an oxygen content down to 8-10% oxygen in the exhaust fumes are insignificant. It becomes dangerous below 8%, which occurs when diesel engines are very heavily loaded. (Reference: Berg essay in VffG, “Holocaust: Diesel Exhaust Fumes Kill Slowly”).

Exhaust Fume Feed-Back as a Mass Murder Technique
It is theoretical possible to recycle the diesel exhaust fumes from the “gas chamber” back into the diesel engine air intake and thus increase the amount of poisonous carbon-monoxide content and reduce the amount of oxygen, thus killing everyone in that room. The engine will sooner or later come to a standstill due to lack of oxygen
It has to be considered however, that carbon-monoxide will not add arithmetically after each passage through the engine, because it will burn up completely as long as there is sufficient oxygen. Carbon-monoxide is an excellent fuel and will burn up easier than diesel oil or gasoline.
It is therefore wrong to assume, that air after it has passed once through the diesel with a carbon-monoxide content say of 0.05%, will increase this after the second pass to 0.10%, then to 0.15% etc. The actual CO content in the exhaust fume depends only on the oxygen content entering the engine air intake.
In practicality the exhaust-recycling method is nothing else than a strong retardation of the effect of suffocating an engine by throtteling the fresh air access. While fresh air throttling has an almost immediate effect of shutting down the engine, the oxygen content goes down only slowly during the exhaust-recycling method. An intended murder with exhaust-recycling will therefore take more time than the above mentioned 3 hours.
A combination of both, where the fresh air intake is throttled to a minimum and the exhaust fumes are fed back into the engine will suffocate the engine due to lack of oxygen.
Gerstein did not reported that the engine developed problem or stalled while in operation for half an hour. Nor was anything like this reported by the various witnesses. It stands therefore to reason, that the exhaust-recycling principal was not anywhere installed.

The Soviet Origin of the Gas Wagon Story.
(This was already covered in Scott’s first post of this thread.)

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:44 pm)

grapple wrote: Also no mention of checking the fuel system since on newly installed engines air in the lines or blockage of the fuel is a common problem.

Good observation, and don’t I know all about it on the boat! Once you get an air bubble into the fuel line, off goes the engine and the system has to be bled.

Second since the engine is water-cooled did they also get the radiator from the tank or truck as well as the associated piping?

Absolutely! On automobiles, trucks, the radiators are not part of the engine, but mounted separately. On diesel-generator aggregat used to generate electricity the radiator would be attached to the engine.

I do not speak German, could the word mean idle instead of neutral or is there a separate German word that means idle (operate at low speed) rather than neutral (not being in gear).

You are correct, “Leerlauf” could also mean “operating at no-load”.

I doubt that Rückerl fiddled with the Fuchs statement. That would have been very risky, Rückerl, a prominent attorney in Germany, could have lost his standing that way. He was constantly watched, and he knows it. If he really doctored with that statement, Revisionists would have found out very quickly and everybody would have been aware of it by now. Rückerl would have been through.

Here is the scenario as I see this:
As far as the court at that time was concerned, including the judges and the prosecutors, including the government and apparently the media as well, the fact that 250,000 people (or whatever) were gassed with diesel exhaust in Sobibor was, is, a self evident fact. And if they would even attempt to investigate, whether this is so, man, a certain minority would get fits, Israel, US Zionists, there would be an uproar, Wall Street, sanctions.
So, the fact of 250,000 gassed in Sobibor stands.

Now, the court, according to Rückerl, had difficulties with witnesses. There were only a few survivors, and they did not really remember what happened, or made contradictory or absurd statements. “The poor Jews, they went through so much already, we cannot really cross-examine.”
And documents there were non either.
So the prosecution decided to get at their own country men. That was easy. The SS was declared a criminal association by the IMT, and ergo all SS men were criminals.
They went through the records and found that Erich Fuchs, a mechanic, was for a time assigned to the camp Sobibor. In Germany everybody has to be registered with the police. They found the man, he was still living, arrested him and confronted him with the “facts” of the crime which could not be refuted, whether true or not.
Fuchs could not say that it did not happen. He would just throw his defense away, nobody would believe him.
After Fuchs served his fatherland for 5 years as a soldier, then spent another year as a POW, is now 20 years later accused of a crime that he may not have witnessed nor committed. And could not deny. He probably talked to his lawyer who may very well have advised him to confess something and to blame it on officers with higher authority and that he had to follow their orders. The man was at the time of the trial probably 65 years old or older, and had his fill with his country.
So he could have made that statement which we are talking about, in order to get off the hook with a lighter sentence. A statement, which to a technically trained person appears somewhat flimsy. Fuchs very well may have cooked this up shortly before he made the statement.

I don’t know whether this is how it happened, but I have to put a couple of question marks next to his statement, I am just plain skeptical about it.

:D
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:52 am)

Sailor wrote:These are my comments about the testimony of Fuchs as reproduced in Rückerl’s book:

Fuchs wrote:
The Sonderkommando there was commanded by Thomalla. Other members of the SS who attended were F., B., Stangl, F., Schwartz, and others.

In his testimony Fuchs implicated some of his former comrades: Thomalla, Stangl, Schwartz, F., B. and F. Did these people confirm the statement of Fuchs? Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

Good point. Nobody seems to know anything about the murder-weapon. Stangl provides almost no details at all other than that they existed.

Sailor wrote:
Fuchs wrote:We placed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the piping

This is not so easy. That engine cannot be handled like a sack of potatoes and probaly weighed about a thousand pounds or more. Did they use some kind of lifting device?

Not easy but not that hard either with a couple of strong guys and some come-alongs or whatever. Still, how did he do it? The devil is in the details.

Sailor wrote:An engine like this has to be anchored to its foundation to prevent it from moving, with at least 4 ¾”-anchor bolts which have to be precisely put into place before pouring concrete into the form of the pad.

I agree. How would one fabricate the mounting arangement? And it would need to be strong enough to handle the operation of the engine, not a flimsy stand. It seems to me that Fuchs would have to build an iron frame or something to mount on the bolts poured into the concrete. Not impossible, but how...

Sailor wrote:The engine exhaust is usually flanged, which requires a special pipe connection and which then leads to a muffler before it is connected to any piping. Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

No, but it wouldn't be any big deal. Just keep the flange attachment connected and cut the exhaust pipe in two. Then you just clamp a couple of pipes together.

Sailor wrote:
Fuchs wrote:It did not work right away. I repaired the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running.

The ignition of a gasoline engine consists of many parts: the coil, distributor, rotor, harness and spark plugs. Further large engines can have different types of ignition: by circuit interruption, spark plugs or glow plugs. Large engine can have several different ignition systems.

In order to adjust the engine valves and the ignition timing with a feeler gauge, wrench and scroboscope requires knowledge of the values to be adjusted to: the engine manual.

For all we know, Fuchs merely changed the points and then unstuck the valves. Naturally he was indispensible, LOL.

This being a Russian engine, it stands to reason that the manual would be written in Russian. Did Fuchs understand this? And how did he get the spareparts for the engine? Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

If it was a truck engine this would be no big deal as many of the Russian trucks were simply American Lend-Lease Fords or whatever. Even a tank-engine would not be too exotic and many were just knocked off of other European designs, including the W-2 diesel engine itself.

Sailor wrote:
Fuchs wrote:The Jewesses had to undress

I never figured out this phobia of the SS to undress people before they were to be murdered. Does anybody here know?

That's why I call it Holo-Porn. It must be something pathological. But in any case, the delousing-ritual was based around public bathing and delousing, hence the gassing-rumors having a consistency. But why undress people to be murdered? Pure Greuelpropaganda, I think.

Sailor wrote:
Fuchs wrote:It was first running in neutral.

This statement implies, that the transmission box with clutch and gear-shifting mechanism came together with the engine. A rather odd way to ship an engine. Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

This is indeed puzzling as a gasoline engine would not need a load and a gearbox. If it did have one, for say an electrical generator or a pump, why doesn't Fuchs mention it? If it was a wrecked-out engine from a truck, it might be simpler to ship with transmission attached, but then why worry about "neutral"? It would always be in neutral unless there was a load, and that load would not affect the gassing anyway with a gasoline motor. In the German text it looks like Fuchs uses a different term for neutral and free-air exhaust. Grapple must be right in that the one term could mean throttle-idle and not involve a transmission at all.

Sailor wrote:
Fuchs wrote:We were both standing at the engine and switched from "free air exhaust" to "chamber"

This I would like to see. What it indicates is, that the exhaust fumes, after leaving the engine and the muffler, go into a valve arrangement by which the fumes can either be directed into the free air or into the "gas chamber." The exhaust fumes are very hot, (Try touching the exhaust of your car after it was in operation!) how did they handle the valves? Rückerl does not say a thing about this.

I don't think this would be any big deal either. Just fit some black pipe and the valves would not need to be any more complicated than for a steam heating-system, a couple of valves with levers would do. You definitely wouldn't want to pipe diesel exhaust into showerheads through pipes because they would soon clog up. Anyway, a working shower inside the gaschamber would make sense I would think because of the cleanup afterwards hosing things down.

Like I said, I would really like to cross-examine this guy.
:twisted:
Last edited by Scott on Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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