Breaking bones with a sledge hammer

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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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Breaking bones with a sledge hammer

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:23 pm)

So that's how they pulverized the bone. By hand with a sledgehammer.

("However Hoess preferred to destroy his bone material with hammers." Destruction of the European Jews. Raul Hilberg. 1985. page 977)

So there's 206 bones in your body, many quite small, but about 25 though that are quite big. Do you think that one smack with the sledgehammer would just pulverize the entire bone? Or do you think it would break into about 3 pieces, the first piece bouncing up and hitting you in the face, the second piece going in a projectile trajectory landing about 20 feet away, and maybe the third piece staying right there. Do you think in the course of pulverizing a body you might miss and dent the concrete? So where was this flat, large, asphalt surface that is all pock-marked? Did the Nazis destroy it, while at the same time leaving a 7 ton pile of human hair?

Each body would have needed about 6 square feet of space to wield the hammer. Does any affidavit or testimony mention the incessant loud pounding of sledgehammers occuring all the time? In the "bone yard."

30 bones, 5 hits each. That is 150 hits of the sledgehammer.

500,000 people, bones pulverized with a sledgehammer. That's a big concrete, pockmarked surface somewhere. Due to 75 million hits of a sledgehammer. (150 * 500,000 =75,000,000)

I mean they can tell in depth stories about how they ladled the fat over the burning bodies to make them burn faster, because that makes good psychological propaganda. Or they can mention the revving of the motorcycle engines to block out the screams. But did anyone hear the 75 million hits of the sledgehammer pulverizing bone? The books and eyewitnesses seem to have completely forgot about this part of the process, and the noise it would make, the labor it would take, and the space one would need. All from a regime that is building the first jet engines in the world, but can't get a gasoline powered bone pulverizer into the camp.

7,000? liberated when the Russians took over Auschwitz. How many mentioned the incessant pounding?

Low estimate of 75 million hits: That one hit a second, 24 hours a day for over 2 years.

1 hit a second is 60 hits a minute is 3600 hits an hour, is 86,400 hits in 24 hours. is 31,536,000 for 365 days. So 2 years is roughly only 60 million hits.

Or you could say the same thing for 2 hits every second for a 12 hour work day.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby antirev1956 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:36 pm)

No, that's not right, Cutlass. You are assuming the most absurd scenario to easily debunk it. Who said that each bone had to be "pulverized" separately? Also, after the cremation bones are brittle. And here is the picture by David Olere of those "hammers":

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000009904 ... _1_Web.jpg

If, for the sake of the argument, one assumes that Olere's drawing is correct, then with such large "hammers" they would crush many bones at once.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:02 pm)

A picture by Olere is hardly evidence. Where are the 'bonecrushers' for us to see? Where are the actual bone remnants?

This Olere also drew flames and massive amounts of smoke blackening the sky from the 'chimney's' ... which as portrayed are impossible.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:15 pm)

No, that's not right, Cutlass. You are assuming the most absurd scenario to easily debunk it.
Please be specific. "No, that's not right Cutlass" is hardly meaningful here. And what scenario is absurd? I'm using a scenario right out of Hilberg.

Plus, in that "drawing" the guy is obviously holding a big fat wooden stump. That would break multiple bones on each blow? No it wouldn't. And the boxes in the drawing: that looks like the bones have been ground into powder doesn't it? You tell me.
Also, after the cremation bones are brittle.
Except you can hardly call long term cooking on an open air fire cremation. These bones wouldn't be that brittle. And if they were, do you think that you could break up a bone from your knee to your pelvis in less than 5 hits? Next time you cook a piece of steak outdoors, with a bone in it, put the bone back in the fire for a few hours and tell me that it's not rock hard and hard to break with a hammer afterwards.

And if Olere wasn't delusional enough, he has the inmates standing in a pile of powdered bone. How well is that going to work if powder is beneath the bone you're trying to crush. It would be a cushion. If you try to hit a piece of bone resting on a pile of pulverized bone, it's not going to work. You might as well place the bone on a bean bag before taking a whack.

And by the way, I think Hannover meant that Olere drew flames that came out of the top of a long smokestack. And this is impossible. Flames wouldn't go that high. So why would Olere draw that? I think this is what Hannover meant. And if Olere drew that, isn't he discredited as a reliable witness?

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Postby antirev1956 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:12 am)

Hannover, I don't know if there are bones remains in Auschwitz. Anyway, I don't argue that they are there, only that Cutlass' argument about bone crushing is not convincing. What do you find wrong with smoke and flames?

Your point about an automatic bone-crusher is interesting. How many bones can such a machine crush at once? How efficient is it? Isn't it supposed to crush the bones of a single corpse at one time?

Cutlass, your scenario of "75 million hits of a sledgehammer", which is not based on anything but the numbers you got from nowhere.

You wrote:
Plus, in that "drawing" the guy is obviously holding a big fat wooden stump. That would break multiple bones on each blow? No it wouldn't.


That's hardly an argument on your part. I can just as easily say: "Yes it would".

And the boxes in the drawing: that looks like the bones have been ground into powder doesn't it? You tell me.


It is impossible to tell. The image is obviously schematic.

Except you can hardly call long term cooking on an open air fire cremation. These bones wouldn't be that brittle.


How brittle would they be then?

And if they were, do you think that you could break up a bone from your knee to your pelvis in less than 5 hits?


After cremation - or incineration, or whatever - why not?

And if Olere wasn't delusional enough, he has the inmates standing in a pile of powdered bone. How well is that going to work if powder is beneath the bone you're trying to crush. It would be a cushion. If you try to hit a piece of bone resting on a pile of pulverized bone, it's not going to work. You might as well place the bone on a bean bag before taking a whack.


Ha! As if one could argue about such details from a schematic picture.

And by the way, I think Hannover meant that Olere drew flames that came out of the top of a long smokestack. And this is impossible. Flames wouldn't go that high. So why would Olere draw that? I think this is what Hannover meant. And if Olere drew that, isn't he discredited as a reliable witness?


No he isn't. Both smoke and flame can emanate from the chimneys:

http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Mattogno73-78.html

With respect to the specific topic of the Topf ovens at Auschwitz, it would be technically erroneous and in contradiction with obvious facts to maintain that they did not smoke.

It is well known that under conditions of incomplete combustion carbonaceous fuels will produce carbon particles, which will deposit on the walls of the smoke ducts in the form of soot. Under appropriate conditions (if the soot layer is sufficiently thick and the temperature sufficiently high) the soot will ignite and flames will indeed emanate from the chimney.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:49 am)

Take note of Olere's absurd drawing:

Image

Curious, none of the wartime aerial photos show such a sight.

Now see Olere debunked:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=191

- Hannover
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:36 am)

This is funny! What do you have to say now Antirev1956?

My guess is you'll say we can't prove that isn't some carbonaceous soot making a flame in the top of the chimney.

You really put forth a credible illustrator Antirev. lol.

Revisionism: Where 2 years in the Boy Scouts sometimes comes in more handy than a PhD. lol.

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Postby Free Minded » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:06 am)

This is one of the most hilarious threads I have read. I was born next to a blast furnace in the English Midlands. One babyhood memory is of four chimneys spewing out flame and smoke just like the drawing My heavens! Was I actually at the site of Holocaust Crematorium?

About as daft as some of the arguments I have just read for the arguments for the use of hammers.

And that hammer. What a load of garbage. As though tree trunks would crush bones. All organised by the people who had Krupps Armaments and Sach Bearings that used some of the most advanced jack hammers and steel processes ever thought of at the time.Please don't get into any arguments about things that are so laughable as to be ludicrous if it wasn't so damned tragic that people are expected to be so dumb as to believe it.

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:17 am)

Why did I delete some posts (from both sides of the aisle)?
This thread has gotten way past 'bone crushers' and moved into the cremation capabilities, cremation methods, etc.

Everyone here should know that the continuity of a thread is critical for reader comprehension; it's makes the thread easier to follow and generally more digestible. Please read the guidelines.

antirev1956, you need to start some threads on specific people and/or topics. Get to it.
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Postby agnostic » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:27 am)

This is intended for the discussion on residual bones and wooden Hammers. Perhaps Hilberg was drawing on Hoess's first signed confession. In that confession inmates with wooden hammers break up bones left over from six or seven hours of cremation in open pits, with wood and petrol serving for fuel. This by orthodox accounts was the way many bodies were disposed of up to the middle of 1942. According to Friedrich Paul Berg a cremation oven could eventually reduce most of the bones in a human skeleton, leaving over such fragments as skulls and teeth. For all I know these might be brittle enough to be broken down by wooden Hammers, if not actually pulverised to dust. Perhaps six or seen hours in an open pit could achieve a reduction equal to one and a half hours in a proper retort. I am here curious about what is physically possible, not what is historically likely. It might be fruitful to concentrate on one point at a time until somebody can bring real knowledge to bear upon it.

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Postby Nick Danger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:31 pm)

Here's something on 'bone crushers."

------------------------- start quote ------------------------------
However, the rapid advance of Red Army troops, culminating in the
capture of the enemy capital of Berlin interrupted the German policy
of completely destroying the evidence; much remained the wake of the
German army - bone-crushers, huge piles of human bone and the
crematories themselves.
------------------------ end quote --------------------------------

The Black Book (p 244)
Underwritten by:
World Jewish Congress
Jewish Antifascist Committee*



Image

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:56 pm)

Wacko "Ghetto Fighters' House"! A cement mixture that is now supposed to be a laughable 'bone crushing machine'.

as well, see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1159

also see the bizarro world of the dumb "Ghetto Fighters' House" shredded here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1239
Notice that they pulled some of their phoney pictures after I linked to them.

It's not difficult folks. The liars shoot themselves in the foot everytime with their own nonsense. Revisionists have it all covered.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:35 pm)

Yes, the Germans knew something about engineering. Something about gears, and what torque would be needed to crush anything from granite rocks to bone.

Hannover: Excellent link to that other post here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1159

thanks. Because there you can see Scott's excellent post at the bottom of what real German engineering looks like. Not these ridiculous assertions put forth by Yiddish storytellers on how they think it would have been done. One mining engineer could have solved the problem, which, coincidentally, Kurt Gerstein was.

Yet, read Hilberg, about how this mechanically simple process was so *special* and *sneaky* and *unusual.* It's positively ridiculous. I mean, here's Hilberg, recognized as writing the definitive book on the holocaust, and he has the SS trying to procure a special bone crusher machine in the Lodz ghetto!

.....He (Blobel) constructed funeral pyres and primitive ovens, and even tried explosives.

In addition to these devices, Kulmhof had something special--a bone-crushing machine (Knochemuhle). On July 16, 1942, the deputy chief of the Gettoverwaltung, Ribbe, sent a letter to "Eldest of the Jews" Rumkowski requesting a canvass of the Lodz ghetto for a bone crusher, "whether manually operated or motor driven." He added openly, "The Sonderkommando Kulmhof is interested in this crusher." The ghetto apparently had no such machine, for a few months later Biebow sent to the Lodz Gestapo the papers concerning the purchase of a mill from the firm Schriever and Company in Hamburg. Biebow asked the Gestapo to keep the sales record. "For certain reasons" he himself did not wish to keep it. When Hoess visited Kulmhof, Blobel promised the Auschwitz commander that he would send him a mill "for solid substances." However, Hoess preferred to destroy his bone material with hammers.

Raul Hilberg. The Destruction of the European Jews. Pg 977. Holmes and Meier. 1985. Three Volume Edition.


I've noticed this before with holocaust historians and holocaust storytellers: they are so obsessed with creating irony that their story becomes unbelievable. So here we have

*the irony of asking the Jews in the ghetto for something to crush their own bones.
* the irony of blatantly mentioning that the sondercommando is interested in it.
* the irony that Blobel could do such a terrible thing and and cover it up so politely by simply asking someone else to keep the sales receipt.

The irony is all great except the whole story itself becomes ridiculous and more appropriate for a Yiddish Hollywood script. "Vee need sumting very, uh... special! for our operations, maybe the Jewish elder cvud help us. Yes, tadellos!"
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:42 pm)

This is one of the most hilarious threads I have read. I was born next to a blast furnace in the English Midlands. One babyhood memory is of four chimneys spewing out flame and smoke just like the drawing My heavens! Was I actually at the site of Holocaust Crematorium?


I think what Free minded means, is that a blast furnace is so very different from a cremation furnace, that it's incredible to draw a cremation furnace that has as much flame.--That's off topic, but only to show that Antirev1956 evidence of Olere drawings aren't credible.

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Postby agnostic » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:46 am)

Bones and sledge hammers


As quoted by Mr Carto’s Cutlass Supreme, Hilberg says that “Hoess preferred to destroy his bone material with hammers”. I do not have Hilberg’s book to hand, so I am not clear whether Hilberg is reporting something or inferring something. Perhaps he has a documented source wherein someone (say Blobel) offered Hoess technology which he deliberately refused. Perhaps Hilberg , believing that such technology must have existed, infers that Hoess confessed to “hammers” because he preferred to used them . Unlike some of your readers, I take Hilberg to be a man of perfectly good faith.

I lazily read the English version of N0-1210 before the German. I now find that “wooden hammer” was a translation of “holzstampfer” My self-taught German is rather shaky but I thought the German for “hammer” was “hammer”. Stampfer suggests a pestle or grinder or battering instrument. Breaking up fresh bones even with a large iron sledgehammer is nearly impossible, but charred and burned fragments might for all I know have been easily pulverised by a hand with a pestle or club, although I cannot think why it should have been made of wood.

As a working speculation I assume that descriptions which are hard to believe are based on events which are not hard to believe. In the early days of Auschwitz we have evidence that Polish families were sent the ashes of dead prisoners. Given a thorough cremation, residual skull fragments and teeth might well ( for all I know ) have been few enough and fragile enough to have been pulverised by hand. But in the year or so before the big crematoria came on line in spring of 1943 it might often have been necessary to cremate bodies in open air, some of these perhaps having been exhumed for reasons of public health. It must have been difficult for civilised procedures to have been followed during the catastrophic epidemic of 1942. If, in addition, a vast programme of secret murder was getting under way , then I find it very hard to believe that wooden pestles or clubs would have been up to the job. This may be why the literature escalates from wooden pestles to wooden hammers to simple hammers to sledgehammers to bone-crushing machinery.

All that Hoess says in his Cracow statement “The Final Solution” is that ashes falling through the grates were “constantly removed and crushed to a powder” which was thrown into the Vistula, where it drifted away and dissolved; ashes taken from burning pits were dealt with “in the same way”. Detail is sometimes best avoided.

Detail of course can be vivid. In the Independent of 17 February there is a review by Julia Pascal of a book called What We Knew edited by Erich Johnson and Karl-Heinz Reuband. Ms Pascal is the author of a “Holocaust trilogy” which I take to be a work of fiction. What We Know apparently offers firm evidence that the German population knew all about the murder of the Jews. “But “ says Ms Pascal “it is the vivid detail ,such as chips of bone in the Auschwitz air which really shock”


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