Cremation capacity at Auschwitz / by Johng

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Cremation capacity at Auschwitz / by Johng

Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:41 am)

[In the hopes that Johng will understand the concept of specific threads, I have reposted this from another, less related one.]

The death certificates recorded in the death books tell us. They show that only 2060 of the 68,864 deaths were from typhus. Butz and Mattogno place the cremation capacity of Auschwitz at about 1000 per day, or 30,000 per month after the new ovens were built. In August 42 during the worst period of the typhus epidemic, the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp had 21,451 male prisoners. The information on the female population is missing. However, it is known that the female population was about 8200 in December 1942. This means that the camp authorities were building enough crematorium capacity in the summer of 1942 to incinerate the entire population of the camp in a month.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:05 am)

This is nothing new to Revisionists.

Steve, said it well:
I'll try to give the gist of Butz's argument.

Some argue that the cremation capacity of 52 muffles (the number at Auschwitz) was so high that the only possible reason to have contructed them was for purposes other than anticipated 'normal' deaths. (ie, exterminations)

Now, Butz reasons that you can discuss theoretical cremation capabilites all you want, but, the best way to come up with a good estimate is to look at crematory use at camps where it is already ackowledged that only 'normal' deaths occured. So, he uses Buchenwald and Dachau as examples.

Then, he examines the number of deaths at Dachau and Buchenwald compared to the number of muffles each camp had. Now he examines the time period when the decision as to how many muffles were to be contructed was made, which would be 1942-1943. It is seen that
the number of projected muffles at Auschwitz (52) relative to the
number of deaths, for the period just mentioned, was actually less than the ratio of muffles/deaths at Dachau and Buchenwald. Meaning, the decision to build 52 muffles at Auscwitz was not excessive after all.

The Revisionist Forum has this subject completely covered, examples
here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=78
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=420
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=260
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=237
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=46

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:19 am)

Johng wrote:... Butz and Mattogno place the cremation capacity of Auschwitz at about 1000 per day, or 30,000 per month after the new ovens were built. ...

Mattogno and Deana calculate 1,000 to 1,200 on a 20hrs basis. But the crematoria were not in operation 24x7. Here is an interesting paragraph from
The Holocaust, the Left, and the Warmongers
Germany's Place in the Manifesto, the Popular Front Sellout, and the "Vietnam Syndrome"
By Patrick S. McNally
http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/3/McNally302-311.html:

Even so, Nyiszli's book has been held up on many an occasion as a powerful example of "Holocaust testimony" and, as such, deserves to be noted. Some pertinent details to note are the following. When describing an alleged attempt by "860 members of the kommando to try and force their way out of the camp" on October 6, 1944, Nyiszli asserts:
"The plans seemed all the more feasible to me for the simple reason that the only crematorium working was number one. And even it would knock off work at 6:00 P.M., which meant that the Sonderkommando night shift would not go on duty that evening."
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:29 am)

- There was a total 52 muffles of Auschwitz, never used simultaneously.

- 38 is the most that were ever online simultaneously.

- The 6 at Auschwitz I were taken out of action as soon as the new ones at Birkenau came online. These were in turn liable to long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.

- If there was a program of mass extermination, the desperate need for cremation capacity is obvious. Why then put six muffles out of action?

- Why use exactly the same incineration techniques as in normal concentration camps, installing coke-fired ovens, even by the thirties a crude and primitive solution? More efficient gas-fired and electrical crematoria had by this time already been used for years in many countries, including my own. For the purpose the SS should naturally have sought out the most efficient answer they were able to find.

- Finally (if the extermination myth was true) the SS must from the start have had some idea of how many victims were to be gassed and burned. It's a simple matter of math, and then naturally founded on estimates made by the constructors, in this case Topf & Söhne. Why then not build the installations required. It doesn't make sense.

- There are no human remains to support the storyline.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:35 am)

and:
In August 1942, at the main camp, 9000 prisoners died. According to John Zimmerman, Auschwitz I would have had a cremation capacity of about 4,680 per month (26 per muffle daily on average, as at Gusen).
So the cremation capacity was about half of what it needed to be during the typhus epidemic.
At the same time, the camp was planned to hold an eventual inmate population of 200,000 (a seven-fold increase from August 1942, at less than 30,000).
Therefore, in August 1942, the very month that (Auschwitz 'expert') van Pelt claims the homicidal adaptation of the crematoria was initiated, the Auschwitz Bauleitung authorities should have requested a crematoria construction program which should have produced capacities almost 14 times greater than the 6 muffles of Auschwitz I at the time. In 1943, when the camp population reached about 140,000, the number of muffles was just over 6 times greater than August 1942, because Crematorium IV broke down and was not repaired (mothballed) and Crematorium I at the main camp was converted into an air-raid shelter. There were 38 muffles.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Johng » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:42 pm)

In order to appease the moderator I will attempt to keep to the thread of the argument. The first point is that regardless of how many crematoria were working or not, the decision to order, pay for and build that level of capacity prior to the alleged ‘Typhoid epidemic would seem to indicate an assumption as to how many bodies would need to be cremated

Secondly, the actual death books do not support the argument that typhus was as a significant cause of death. The ‘death books’ to quote Zimmerman say that:-
these books contain the death certificates of registered prisoners only. Non-registered prisoners who were killed upon arrival did not receive a death certificate. The death books are incomplete. They contain the certificates of 68,864 registered prisoners who died from August 1941 to December 1943.There are no books for 1944 or periods prior to August 1941.They are either missing or were destroyed. Also, there are a number of missing books for the period August 1941 to December 1943. However, each book contains between 1400 and 1500 entries. [29] By interpolating 1500 entries into each missing death book we can arrive at approximately 80,000 deaths of registered prisoners for 1942 and 1943. Zimmerman

So what do the death certificates recorded in the death books tell us. They show that only 2060 of the 68,864 deaths were from typhus

So why plan to build such a capacity?

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Postby Holohoax » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:01 pm)

Secondly, the actual death books do not support the argument that typhus was as a significant cause of death.


A very dishonest argument.

Maybe on average the typhus deaths were not that important. But in the period during which the decision to build crematoria was made hundreds of people were dying every day. This is all that matters.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:06 pm)

Who investigated the death books and where were the results published?

What are the causes of death of the other 66,000 people?
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:12 pm)

Non-registered prisoners who were killed upon arrival did not receive a death certificate.


That's utterly ridiculous, because no-one was 'killed on arrival', if you think they were, can you please explain it to me with a slightly more indepth account of how they actually went about this?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:18 pm)

Johng,
Why do you dodge my specific points?

Some more:
Typhus is a disease which produces a hugh fever of 104F+ which literally cooks the body (and brain) of the victim for about ten days. During this period there is nothing you can do for the victim, except to try to cool them off. Typhus victims will frequently have episodes of irrational violence coupled with long semi-comatose periods during this ten day period. Sometimes during this period people will die, perhaps 10% of victims.
However the real problems come AFTER the crisis is past. This is because the constant cooking the body has seriously weakened the victim, mentally (the brain is often at least temporarily disordered for some months, and it was traditional in Eastern Europe that a typhus victim cannot attest to any legal document within a year or two of getting the disease)as well as physically. In particular, the heart is seriously weakened.

Convalescence from typhus can take weeks or even more. It is during this period that many victims die, often of heart failure. This was recognized by Arthur R. Butz in "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" in 1975, and it is indeed true. Incidentally, death rates for typhus under epidemic conditions (the kind they had in Auschwitz) can reach 90% of those 40 years and older, and up to 50% overall, although the usual mortality is listed at 10%-30%. So to make a long story short, Zimmerman's projections are both factually wrong as well as meaningless.

If someone is in the death books they were not slated for extermination, because there would be no sense to register someone if they were to be killed on arrival. Yet there are pages of the death books that show numerous inmates either too young to work (below 14) and too old to work (60+ == remember, in those days, sixty was older than sixty is today.

Zimmerman's own data indicates that about 15% of the death book entries cover persons over 50, that is, only marginally workable, between 40 and 50, another 25%, which is workable, and obviously the other 60% covered And again, it would make no sense to kill someone after going to the trouble of registering them. It follows that the 25,000-30,000 inmates who died between August 1942 and January 1943 died overwhelmingly as a result of the typhus (and typhoid) epidemics. This interpretation is also supported by many documents that talk about the typhus (and typhoid) epidemics. We also know that the 3,000 deaths in January 1943 were still considered unacceptable.
There are no documents that talk about killing large numbers of registered inmates for either health or "final solution" related reasons.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:10 pm)

When I saw for the first time a map of Auschwitz/Birkenau, I thought “My God! The inmates were rolled in on trains, with the entrance building gate looking like the open mouth of a whale, and at the far end four large crematoria. And then this absolutely cold, functional arrangement of the barracks.”

The architects of these crematoria, Walter Dejaco and Fritz Ertl were also asked during their trial in Vienna in 1972 the same question.
They testified that the camp experienced a death rate of up to 500 per day in 1942 when the inmate population of the camp was only about 22,000. The plan at that time was to increase the capacity of the camp to 200,000 inmates. This would logically require additional cremation capacity.
Fortunately the camp administration got the various epidemics pretty well under control.

People died not only from typhus, there were other diseases like dysentery, and they died from malnutrition, old age, exhaustion etc. They all have to be burried or cremated, not only those from typhus.

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Postby DowntownSteve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:43 pm)

Actually wouldn't burying typhus and dystentery victims being every more dangerous? The threat of the diseases getting into the water supply dictated that they had to be cremated.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:32 pm)

DowntownSteve wrote:Actually wouldn't burying typhus and dystentery victims being every more dangerous? The threat of the diseases getting into the water supply dictated that they had to be cremated.

That is apparently what happened: They had to dig up the whole mess of early burials because of poisoning of the water. I think that the bodies were then cremated on open pyres.
My point was that people did not only die of typhus, but also from other causes.

What I simply have a problem to understand is this allegation of cremation in pits. Even if there were no high water table probems, the cremation in pits is still very inefficient because of insufficient air supply. Could someone straighten me out on this?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:08 am)

Bergmann said:
Even if there were no high water table problems, the cremation in pits is still very inefficient because of insufficient air supply. Could someone straighten me out on this?

Nothing to straighten out, you have it exactly right. The poor air supply would require very long periods of time for cremations to be completed. That fact blows away the official storyline.

Then ofcourse, there is no physical evidence to back up the incredible claims for these stupid 'pits' anyway.

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:12 am)

Johng:

You repeat what has already been addressed without responding to the specific points put you. Please respond to the points of rebuttal to your position.
i.e.: Posting more Zimmerman when the points in the quote by him have been attended to in previous posts.

It's rather more difficult when there is no dodging. Again, it's all in the guidelines.
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