The strange encounter of Captain S. Payne Best

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The strange encounter of Captain S. Payne Best

Postby Johng » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:57 pm)

There was a posting with regards the views of Professor Marcuse. In response Carto's Cutlass Supreme said
‘Not to mention that he cites Dr. Blaha as a credible source of information. Blaha has been debunked here on revforum.’

I am, of course, always intrigued when deniers claim a ‘debunking’! But clearly this is another ‘thread’ so here we go!

If you examine Blaha’s actual testimony you will see that the reference to gassings takes up about 10% of his statement. I accessed the testimony via a Revisionist site (corax) they start off with the statement that almost all of Blaha’s testimony has been refuted. This is not true. The majority of his testimony covers the experiments that were carried out at Dachau on prisoners. There is ample wartime correspondence and reports that deal quite openly with these experiments and the people who died.

Blaha states that those that survived the experiments became invalids.

He states
"Most of the prisoners used died from these experiments (high Pressure), from internal hemorrhage of the lungs or brain. The survivors coughed blood when taken out. It was my job to take the bodies out and as soon as they were found to be dead to send the internal organs to Munich for study. About 400 to 500 prisoners were experimented on. The survivors were sent to invalid blocks and liquidated shortly afterwards. Only a few escaped."

This statement corresponds exactly with a report sent to Himmler by Dr Rascher describing the results of the autopsies on prisoners following the high pressure experiments.

In relation to gassing he states
"The gas chamber was completed in 1944, and I was called by Dr. Rascher to examine the first victims. Of the eight or nine persons in the chamber there were three still alive, and the remainder appeared to be dead. Their eyes were red, and their faces were swollen."

It is interesting to note that 3 were still alive!!

Most are, however, killed by injection or shooting. So Blaha is not talking of mass gassings as in the polish camps but small scale possibly experimental gassings. Compare that with the memo sent from Dr. Sigmund Rascher at Dachau to Himmler, which read (see Kogon et al., Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, p. 202):

"As you know, the same facilities [gas chambers] have been built at the Dachau concentration camp as at Linz [Hartheim] Whereas the "invalid transports" end up in certain chambers anyway, I ask whether we cannot test some of our various combat gases on specific persons who are involved in the action. Up till now there have only been animal tests or accounts of accidental deaths in the manufacture of these gases. Because of this paragraph, I have sent this letter marked "Secret."

Clearly Rascher is indicating that some ‘invalids’ are killed in a facility similar to the one at Hartheim and he wants to carry out experiments with combat gasses.

Further evidence of this comes from A Captain S. Payne Best who had met Rasche in Buchenwald (Rasche had been arrested and jailed for a variety of reasons)

"Almost at our first meeting he told me that he belonged
to Himmler's personal staff, and that it was he who planned
and supervised the construction of the gas chambers and
was responsible for the use of prisoners as guinea pigs
in medical research. Obviously he saw nothing wrong in
this and considered it merely a matter of expediency. As
regards the gas chambers, he said that Himmler, a very
kind-hearted man, was most anxious that prisoners should
be exterminated in a manner which caused them the least
anxiety and suffering. . . .
--S. Payne-Best, _The Venlo Incident_ (London:
Hutchinson, n.d.) p. 186.

Its interesting that deniers try to shrug of the Rascher letter as a mistranslation but offer no concrete evidence and try to dismiss the Payne Best memoir as “only hearsay”
Deniers are fond of quoting a 1960 letter written by the director of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History), in Munich (see Die Zeit, August 19, 1960, p. 16):
No Gassing in Dachau
Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed.
The letter of course confirms that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps. Holocaust-deniers don't like to mention that part. They also don't like to mention that, since 1960, the Institute has performed more research and has come to a new conclusion. They now say:
...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:31 pm)

In relation to gassing he states
"The gas chamber was completed in 1944, and I was called by Dr. Rascher to examine the first victims. Of the eight or nine persons in the chamber there were three still alive, and the remainder appeared to be dead. Their eyes were red, and their faces were swollen."



The problem with this alleged "experimental gassing" at Dachau is that 1944 was at least 2 years past the alleged beginning of a massive gassing campaign in the eastern camps. If the Nazis had been gassing for 2 years before 1944 they would hardly have needed to timidly trickle in any Dachau inmates for "experiments".

Also, upon Dachau's capture, the army recorded the height of the ceiling in this alleged gas chamber as "10 feet". They also recorded perforated brass fixtures in the ceiling. When Leuchter examined the same building in its present state it now had a 7.5 foot ceiling with sheet metal showerheads. The army recorded the gassing method as a complex pipe delivery system. Leuchter and Holocaust History record the gas delivery system as sliding bins in the walls. Leuchter also photographed mis-matching plaster around the bins in the wall masonry. The bins had obviously been added after the building's original construction. They had to have been added after the camp's capture, because the army failed to record them upon original description. The gas chamber, therefore, was deliberately mocked-up after the camp's capture.


This also ignores the fact that there are serious forensic problems and account conflicts involved with the eastern "gas chambers" as well.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:38 pm)

at Nuremberg, perjurer Blaha said about Dachau in a sworn statement:
"There were numerous executions by gas, executions by firearms, and by injections, in the camp. The gas chamber was finished in 1944, and I called Dr. Rascher to examine the first victim. Of the eight or nine persons in the chamber, three were still alive; the others seemed to be dead. Their eyes were red and their faces bloated. Numerous detainees were subsquently killed in the same manner." IMT, vol. V, p. 198 (PS-3249).

But we're told now that there were no gassings, and THEN we're told there were "experimental" gassings which contradicts Blaha...the liars can't keep their stories straight.

However, here's more:
"... In 1942 a gas chamber was also built in the Dachau concentration camp, but inexplicably, **it was never used**. It was located within the new crematorium, a larger building whose construction with four ovens became necessary when the first crematorium, which had only one oven, proved inadequate."

- from museum booklet
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau/Da ... kText.html


"inexplicably it was never used"..?? Oh please, that's pathetic. IOW, there was no gas chambers period.

and:
The May-June 1993 Journal of Historical Review (page 12) contains a letter by Dr. Martin Broszat [of the Institute for Contemporary history in Munich] regarding the Dachau concentration camp. Broszat mentions a gas chamber there, never completely finished or put into operation.

but:
Toward the end of World War II, I was a US Army captain on the staff of Ambassador Robert Murphy, political advisor to General Eisenhower. I was at Dachau about a month after it had been liberated, either the end of May or the beginning of June, 1945. There was no gas chamber there, nor did I see one in the process of construction. What did occur was that some higher authority in the American occupation government, whether a civilian or military, I don't know, decreed that a gas chamber should be built, which was subsequently done.
I was also at the Buchenwald camp a few days after it was liberated on April 11, 1945. There was a crematory there but no gas chamber.

Homer G. Richey
Charlottesville, Virginia

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2_Letters.html


and let's not forget this nugget:

The original U.S Army investigation after liberation, described the alleged gas chamber as having a 10 ft ceiling beset with "brass fixtures" (Doc L-159, No 47 of 79th Congress, 1st Session (Exhibit NO. USA-222; IMT, XXXVII, p.621)). The ceiling today is 7.6 ft and the fake showerheads are made of sheet metal.

more:
"THE GAS CHAMBER disguised as a 'shower room' was never used as a gas chamber."
- Andrew Mollo, "Dachau," After the Battle (London: Battle of Britain Prints Ltd., 1980), Number 27, pp. 1-29.


Poor old Mollo still can't accept that a shower room was indeed a shower room. He presents no evidence that they weren't and he says nothing of 'experimental gassings'.

and:

Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.
Dr. Larson's findings?
In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."

and:

....in the files of the Hoover Library at Stanford, California, are the papers of British secret service (MI6) agent Captain S. Payne Best, who was captured by the Gestapo with fellow-agent Stevens in the famous Venlo Incident in May 1940.
Both were held for most of the war in Dachau concentration camp. After Stevens wrote a best-seller in which he laid it on thick and rotten about how they had been brutally tortured by the Nazis, Best wrote to him a letter (the carbon copy is in the Hoover manuscript collection) suggesting that he shut up, as both knew that they had been treated decently and well by their captors, and that there had not been the slightest maltreatment.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:45 pm)

U.S. 'holocaust' Museum and faked Dachau photo:
Image
the museum's caption reads:

Former Dachau prisoners celebrate the first anniversary of their liberation by hoisting a homemade American flag in thanks on April 30, 1946. National Archives, Washington

the facts:

The staff at the National Archives confirmed that the photo was indeed taken on April 30, 1945 and not 1946 as the museum claims. One wonders at the museum's temerity in imagining that the everybody would be hoaxed by a fraud which presumed that the "survivors" of Dachau would return one year later, and dress up once more in their prison garb, to boot.
Even so, pictured a crowd of healthy inmates at Dachau just after liberation runs counter to the Museum's propaganda efforts. After all, the main come-on to American gentiles visiting the USHMM is the link between the American capture of the camps--amid the tried-and-true scenes of horror-and the Hitler order-gas chamber-extermination Holocaust. So, keep the picture, fake the caption, change the date-and the facts be damned!

full text here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/fak ... uFake.html

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:47 pm)

Also, Rascher was arrested & executed by the SS for some limited medical experiments he did with criminals who had been sentenced to death anyway. Remember, Dachau held hardcore criminals among it's population.

The execution of Rascher is a good indicator of the lack of an 'extermination plan' that is absurdly alleged of the Germans. His execution is a good indicator that the SS took discipline seriously.

There is no evidence of gassings, there is no indication he singled out Jews.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:40 pm)

Here's an interesting quote that serves to address with Dachau gas chamber nonsense as well as the holocaust as a whole:

Stephen F. Pinter, who served as a lawyer for the United States War Department in the occupation forces in Germany and Austria for six years after the war, made the following statement in the widely read Catholic magazine Our Sunday Visitor, June 14th , 1959: "I was in Dachau for 17 months after the war, as a U.S. Department Attorney, and can state that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. What was shown to visitors and sightseers there and erroneously described as a gas chamber was a crematory. Nor was there a gas chamber in any of the other concentration camps in Germany. We were told that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz, but since that was in the Russian zone of occupation, we were not permitted to investigate since the Russians would not allow it. From what I was able to determine during six postwar years in Germany and Austria, there were a number of Jews killed, but the figure of a million was certainly never reached. I interviewed thousands of Jews, former immates of concentration camps in Germany and Austria, and consider myself as well qualified as any man on this subject."

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:13 pm)

We were told that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz, but since that was in the Russian zone of occupation, we were not permitted to investigate since the Russians would not allow it.



Who isn't allowing it now?

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:34 pm)

Hi Johnng,

Here's part of your original post with my comments in red:
Deniers are fond of quoting a 1960 letter written by the director of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History), in Munich which you are not refuting. So I guess you agree with it.(see Die Zeit, August 19, 1960, p. 16):This must be Martin Broszat
No Gassing in Dachau
Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed.
The letter of course confirms that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps. Holocaust-deniers don't like to mention that part. That's a strawman. I'm looking at holocaust denial stuff all the time, and what "deniers" say regarding this is that the exterminationists admitted there were no systematic extermination inside Germany's borders. And that this contrasts to so much allied propaganda.They also don't like to mention that, since 1960, the Institute has performed more research and has come to a new conclusion. They now say:
...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.This shows that Blaha is a liar doesn't it? For Blaha said "There were numerous executions by gas, executions by firearms, and by injections, in the camp." And keep in mind that the injections was mentioned in the New York Times in Dec. 1942. It was part of the mid war holocaust myth starting out. No one believes in mass death by injection nowadays. So Blaha made a false statement. I guess that's what we mean by "debunking" here at revforum. And as Hannover points out: if you've just killed a few million people by gassings in Poland with zyklon B and carbon monoxide, why would you need to do some gassing experiments at Dachau?

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Postby Johng » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:44 am)

Hannover uses this ‘fact’

Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.
Dr. Larson's findings?
In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."

I find this fascinating. Larson admits he is the ONLY forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" and at Dachau examined 100 bodies out of the tens of thousands who died there, and thus this is definate statistical/medical proof.

It would be interesting to see the whole article as he seemingly contradicts this in

('Crime Doctor,' McCallum & Larson, p. 61. ISBN 0-916076-20-2; Library of Congress Catalog Number: 78-16403) In which he states

"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another. However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however, they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles. But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination was the answer."

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:20 am)

On Johng's latest:

Ofcourse, a large percentage of those that died, did so after the arrival of US troops ... Oops. So Larson's sample seems reasonable. Plus, given the utter lack of evidence for gassing and all the many other points, which Johng ignores, the Revisionist position is confirmed.

Then Johng presents the tired & absurd fake showerheads canard (via a quote) which has been demolished in this thread. Johng again ignores the posts refuting the canard.

Then Johng tries to say that the Germans blew cyanide out into the camp after gassing "psychotic" inmates (or could cyanide magically vanish like all those millions of Jewish corpses .... those amazing Germans). I guess gassing everyone in the camp was part of the plan too. Again, absurd.

The quote says (we don't know who.. McCallum or Larson):
"But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner."

Opinion? Where's the autopsy reports to confirm ANY gassings? Nowhere, that's where.

The source of JohnG's quote, 'Crime Doctor', was published in 1979; but yet we have info. later from Larson himself which shatters the entire matter.
again:
In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."


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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:49 am)

So am I right that at this point we're debating whether according to Larson:

1) they might have killed psychotics that needed 1 on 1 care, and others in similar care-intensive situations where that care couldn't be provided during wartime.

or

2) They didn't kill any at all in the gas chambers.

Both of these options points to Dr. Blaha's testimony being false.

Both these options point to the idea that the holocaust didn't happen.

Let me guess? The holocaust happened but these Dachau inmates were so essential for the German war effort by way of their labor that they never killed them. Eventhough the Nazis could have easily conscripted a labor force from the territories they were retreating from, and used that group instead for labor. I don't remember seeing in the movie Der Ewige Jude anything about Jews being an essential blue collar labor force. Just the opposite in fact. If that was the Nazi viewpoint, I wonder why they would go to so much trouble to kill 6 million Jews and then keep some for unskilled blue collar labor. It just doesn't make sense.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:19 pm)

The quote Johng brings about psychotic inmates being gassed is obviously something Larson was told since he couldn't have experienced it himself. Remember, Nuremberg cited a complex pipe system that delivered powdered cyanide for this alleged chamber. So Larson's secondhand quote saying "they dropped some pellets in" contrasts with this. "The ceiling was covered with false showerheads" contrasts with the army's recording of "perforated brass fixtures (pipes)". This account is probably a lie because it refers to the false showerheads of the mocked-up chamber before they existed. The showerhouse also had windows - which contrasts with Larson's "windowless room".

The need for the allies to construct a false gas chamber is ignored.

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Postby steve » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:13 pm)

Johng wrote,
examined 100 bodies out of the tens of thousands who died there, and thus this is definate statistical/medical proof...


Johng, if any significant percentage did die by gassing, then it is highly unlikely to pick 100 bodies at random and have none test positive for gassing. Just to given an example, given 50000 bodies, and assume 5000 died by gassing. What are the chances you can randomly pick 100 and have all test negative for gassing? Well, if my mathematics is correct, that probablility is .000026 Of course, if even more than 5000 died by gassing, the odds of Larson's tests would be even more unlikely! If as little as 1000 died by gassing, I get a probablility that all 100 test negative is about 13%. But, if only 1000 were gassed out of 50000 dead, that kind of flies in the face that there was a gassing program there.

Now, in all fairness to another point you made, namely the aparent conflicting testimony of Mr. Larson. He indicates there were gassing, then later says there were not. I agree, it is understandable to not accept anything from him, UNLESS some kind of comment can be found on this aparent contradiction.

As for ,
No Gassing in Dachau
Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed.
The letter of course confirms that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps. Holocaust-deniers don't like to mention that part. They also don't like to mention that, since 1960, the Institute has performed more research and has come to a new conclusion. They now say:
...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.

Carto commented quite ably on this but I will elaborate.
For one, it does NOT confirm there were gassings in the Polish camps. It merely suggests that part of the legend is still accepted. Two, I mention all the time Brozat etal does not include Auschwitz in that statement. But, the point is, for years it was accepted, and even 'proven' that there WERE gassings in the German camps. And, with what seemed to be even STRONGER 'evidence' for gassings at the Polish camps. And yet, we have the tacit admission that was all a lie. But, the public is never really made aware of this admission. That is not grounds for suspicion about the entire gassing story?
As for,
"...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed."
Well, what is this new 'evidence'?

Now, I have a sincere question for you. You use the pathetic, insulting term, 'denier'. Do you think we are all lying when we say we do not believe in the usual Big H story? Do you really believe we are unreasonable to at minimum have serious doubts about the standard story? Do you actually think, after seeing all that has been posted on this forum, that doubting is unreasonable? Given that Elie Wiesel is a very famous 'witness' but yet obvious his stories are simply not credible, along with many other 'eye-witness' accounts, is it really unreasonable of us to seriously wonder what the hell is going on? I really want to know what you think our motives are.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:54 am)

On the allegations about Rascher:
"I have never understood the accusations made against Dr. Rascher, and have no idea how much truth or falsehood they may contain; I am therefore not in a position to discuss them. The document nevertheless appears to imply that very few test subjects actually died. All nations, including the United States, have carried out medical experiments resulting in death, the Americans even while the Nuremberg Trial was still continuing. The difference is that the Germans used criminals in concentration camps, while the Americans used foreign laborers who were too ignorant to understand the consent forms they signed for a few dollars. Dr. Rascher was shot by the SS."

- Robert Wolfe, Assistant Director, Center for Captured German and Related Documents, US National Archives

This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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