Treblinka Evidence Please

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 12:15 pm)

in addition:
We don't have death penalty in post-war Germany. But maybe some were extradited to Israel?

Huh? You mean Germans were not executed at Nuremberg?

As a follow-up:
When did Germany ban the death penalty?
What prison sentences did these alleged '29' receive?
If the sentences were curiously short, the making of a 'deal' seems assured.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 1:36 pm)

Hi Hotzenplotz, I think it's good if you ever feel like taking the exterminationist position. I welcome that and encourage you to do it. I had the same questions myself that you had and I'm still trying to figure it out. I really don't know how they pulled all these people out of a hat.

You mentioned how they all admitted there was a chamber there. Look at what Robert Faurisson says regarding this, but at Auschwitz. It surprisingly involves Dr. Browning and Eichman too! Bold text is mine:
With respect to Browning's testimony generally, Faurisson said: "I would say that Dr. Browning doesn't take into account what I call the other side of the story........... as I did, to Dr. Servatius who was the defence lawyer of Eichmann and in the Nuremberg trial, he had been also a defence lawyer. Very interesting...I ask him how is it that you didn't ask any question about the gas chamber and he said because we decided not to get into that but to say that Eichmann had nothing to do with it. And it's classical in all those trials, the defence lawyer cannot defend something which looks impossible. It looks impossible to say that the gas chamber did not exist so the tactic of those people, and I can bring proof of that, was not to get into that. Exactly as in the witchcraft trial, when the people were accused of having [met] the devil, they wouldn't say, 'Your Honour, the best proof that I have not met the devil is that the devil does not exist'; it would have been the end. No. The tactic was to say, 'Oh, yes, the devil was there on the top of the hill. Myself, I was down [at the bottom]...and in Auschwitz it's exactly the same thing." The accused would admit the existence of the gas chambers, but deny their involvement with them. (30-8236 to 8238)
Faurisson at the Zundel Trial:
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/FaurisArch/RF880413.html


Another point: O.k. there's 29 people and there's Eichmann before he was arrested. And then there's the very unlikely notion that a 1960's German government would torture people, and send them to the Soviets! It seems like overwhelming evidence in favor of the holocaust. But as Hannover mentions: "go into the details." And in fact I've done that in a post called "the Hirtreiter document." For one we find that his confession was to an American Jewish interrogator in 1946. There is a link to a scan of the interrogator's report. Then I point out all sorts of very unlikely things. But what I don't even mention is that when it came time for the trials it got even more crazy: he was accused and convicted of killing babies for fun. By throwing them like a ball. This accusation then made it into Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews.

Similar for the Treblinka inmates. How could all these people be lying? C'mon? But then you read the most prominent account: Yankel Weirnik, or Wernik or Wiernik's Year in Treblinka, and he's talking about the SS drinking fine liquers and fine foods while laughing like maniacs, as they burn bodies. I mean get real. First of all those bodies were likely the dug up bodies, so they would have smelled so bad, no one would be able to eat. Plus do you think the Treblinka administration would allow guards to drink alcohol and eat fine foods on duty?

Seriously, the reason Hannover asks for the specifics on what these people actually said, is that he knows it's just going to be ridiculous. Why these people could never get it together and tell a believable lie is beyond me. But due to that, we get new literature, and new accounts from people who couldn't speak for 50 years, or something pulled out of the woodwork, and these people then correct this and try to tell a believable lie for a change. But thanks to Raul Hilberg, we have all the old liars documented. Then the exterminationists are in a weird position: touting an important account which Hilberg in 40 years of research never mentioned in his 1985 three volume Destruction of the European Jews. Thanks Hilberg.

Here's a Treblinka confession of Josef Hirtreiter, paraphrased by a US government agent. Alas we look at a real document. Will the proof be in the pudding? You decide. And keep in mind that this wouldn't even be acceptable enough for Hannover (or me) We'd want to see the transcript of the confession itself. But even in Friedlander's words, you can see the ridiculousness.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=13576#13576

Hotzenplotz: I encourage you to start studying via original research: buy the 60's Life Magazines on EBAY that had the Eichmann articles and post what you find in the article here. If you get into this like me, with my current 500 plus posts, it's surprising what you find. As an example:

One day you're studying the Eichmann trial and finding out his lawyer was Dr. Servatius.

The next day you're reading Year in Treblinka on the web by Yankel Wernik and reading obvious lies.

Then you put them together: Weirnik testified at the Eichmann trial, and Servatius chose not to cross-examine him. Servatius could have asked him all about his book, Year in Treblinka. Instead Servatius had no questions for the witness. And Eichmann is then executed. Hmmm. In Weirnik's book, he claimed to get shot by a guard. The bullet went through his clothing but then didn't pierce his skin, then he turned around and killed the guard with an axe. Not bad for a 52 year old who's been in a concentration camp for a year!!

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 3:37 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Exactly as in the witchcraft trial, when the people were accused of having [met] the devil, they wouldn't say, 'Your Honour, the best proof that I have not met the devil is that the devil does not exist'; it would have been the end. No. The tactic was to say, 'Oh, yes, the devil was there on the top of the hill. Myself, I was down [at the bottom]...and in Auschwitz it's exactly the same thing.

I really like that quotation... it's very suggestive of the situation those SS might have been in.

But what I don't even mention is that when it came time for the trials it got even more crazy: he was accused and convicted of killing babies for fun. By throwing them like a ball. This accusation then made it into Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews.


Not so long ago, I believed all those baby-killing stories--- like piercing them and swirling them around on a bayonet in front of the mother.

Hotzenplotz: I encourage you to start studying via original research: buy the 60's Life Magazines on EBAY that had the Eichmann articles and post what you find in the article here. If you get into this like me, with my current 500 plus posts, it's surprising what you find.

Sooner or later I'll have to this. I don't think I can live along suspecting it to be a lie without being certain enough to talk to anybody about it. But right now I should be doing something different... so I'm just cutting off some time for revisionism...

Hannover wrote:Huh? You mean Germans were not executed at Nuremberg?

As a follow-up:
When did Germany ban the death penalty?

Post-war Germany never had the death penalty. The Nuremberg Trials were not held in German courts, since it was only a Military Tribunal on German soil. In fact, there was no German state at that time - the Federal Republic of Germany was founded in May, 1949.

The verdict of the so-called Treblinka-trial from June 9th, 1965 in Düsseldorf can be found at the IDGR (Informationsdienst gegen Rechtsradikalismus: Information Service against right-wing Extremism - obviously an exterminationist site):
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/just ... urteil.php
as well as the other important trials:
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/justiz/index.php
(in German)

I havn't read it since it's quite long, but 9 persons were convicted and sentenced to prison with terms ranging from 3 years to lifelong, mostly because of "abetment to jointly commited murder in at least 300.000 cases" (rather a lenient verdict considering the charge...). One was acquitted. That is, some should have been released quite some time ago. Could be interesting to try to get first-hand info from them before they die.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 4:13 pm)

Hi Hotzenplotz,

I'll bet they're all dead. You can't live through that kind of trauma and make it into your mid 80's. But maybe. Sadly there's probably not a single person in Germany who would look to seek these people out, or their relatives.

This 1965 court case web page is in German, which I can't understand. However, the name "hirtreiter" is mentioned 13 times. (do a control-F on your keyboard to do a word search) I'd be interested to know what it says about him. Because I think he was framed and spent his life in jail as a result.

He tried to go with the defense that he mainly just unloaded trains. But then the witnesses said. "O.k. you just unloaded trains, but you killed babies there while you were doing it." That was the lying witnesses way to get him too.

In Faurisson's witch trials terms, Hirtreiter was at the bottom of the hill, when the devil was at the top of the hill, but the witnesses saw him doing something bad at the bottom of the hill, so he was given a life sentence.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 4:23 pm)

said:
The verdict of the so-called Treblinka-trial from June 9th, 1965 in Düsseldorf can be found at the IDGR (Informationsdienst gegen Rechtsradikalismus: Information Service against right-wing Extremism - obviously an exterminationist site):
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/just ... urteil.php
as well as the other important trials:
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/justiz/index.php
(in German)

Verdicts?
So, where are any cross examination transcripts? Where are the transcripts period? "Verdicts" don't cut it.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 5:07 pm)

"Verdict", now there's a nice word!

Didn't they give some of these away at Nuremburg in relation to the Soviet trials concerning Katyn?

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 5:11 pm)

Hi Carto,

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:I'd be interested to know what it says about [Hirtreiter]. Because I think he was framed and spent his life in jail as a result.


Hirtreiter's not one of the accused in this trial, so he is only mentioned in connection with crimes commited by the accused. Once it is stated that an old lady which was to be shot by Mentz "had already been abused by Hirtreiter with a whip". More interesting is the passage that says that mainly Hirtreiter together with Küttner staged so-called sports where prisoners who had not worked hard enough where forced to some kind of gymnastics while being whipped. Whoever didn't make it and broke down was shot afterwards.

Then the baby-killing you refered to:
After all the women had left naked the barrack (while being whipped), three babies had been left on the ground.

verdict wrote:Da nahm Hirtreiter einen Säugling bei den Füssen und schlug ihn mehrfach mit dem Kopf gegen die Barackenwand, bis er tot war. Während das geschah, betrat Franz die Frauenauskleidebaracke. Er sagte zu Hirtreiter, er wolle das besser machen. Er nahm den zweiten Säugling an den Füssen hoch, holte dann weit aus und schlug ihn voller Wucht mit dem Kopf so heftig gegen die Barackenwand, dass er bereits durch den einen Schlag getötet wurde. Nachdem dies geschehen war, entfernte sich der Zeuge... .


"Then Hirtreiter took one baby at its feet and smashed it several times with the head against the wall of the barrack until it was dead. While this was happening, Franz entered the women's undressing barrack. He said to Hirtreiter that he wanted to do it better. He lifted the second baby holding its feet, struck out far [my crappy translation] and smashed it with full force with the head against the wall of the barrack with so much power that it was killed with only one hit. After this had happened, the witness left..."

In another case of baby-killing it is stated that not Hirtreiter, but Franz commited the deed. The other occurences of his name are mostly uninteresting.

But you will like this:
Der Zeuge hat die Angeklagten Franz und Miete ohne Zögern wiedererkannt. Er hat seine Aussage vorsichtig, bedächtig, aber bestimmt gemacht. Seine Schilderung von Einzelheiten des Lagerlebens stimmt in den allermeisten Punkten mit den Aussagen anderer Zeugen überein, die ausserhalb von Polen leben und mit denen der Zeuge keine Verbindung hat. Das Schwurgericht hat keine Bedenken, dem Zeugen Glauben zu schenken.


"The witness [a polish butcher called Roj.] recognized the accused Franz and Miete unhesitatingly. He made his deposition carefully, slowly, but determined. His depiction of details of life in the camp match in the vast majority of points with the depositions of other witnesses who lived outside Poland and to whom the witness has no connection. The court does not doubt that the witness is credible."

Anyway... I admit Hannover's general point that we would need to see the transcripts to understand better what happened.

Hotzenplotz

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 6:44 pm)

Hotzenplotz wrote:The verdict of the so-called Treblinka-trial from June 9th, 1965 in Düsseldorf can be found at the IDGR (Informationsdienst gegen Rechtsradikalismus: Information Service against right-wing Extremism - obviously an exterminationist site):
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/just ... urteil.php
as well as the other important trials:
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/justiz/index.php
(in German)

Given the problems with homicidal gassings with the exhaust fumes from diesel engines,
(See: “Diesel Gas Chambers
Ideal for Torture — Absurd for Murder”
by Fritzl Berg
http://www.nazigassings.com/dieselgaschambera.html)

Given the problems of finding the mass graves of 900,000 dead people in Treblinka,

the German judiciary may have some day a lot of explaining to do to the German people.

Their interest seems to have been mainly to get some confessions from the alleged perpetrators. And of course an expert report by an animal trainer about the dog Barry, who was allegedly trained to snap at the genitals of Jewish men.

The German courts did not find it necessary to request a “Gutachten” from a Diesel engine experts, nor to do some exploratory excavations at the sites.

It was all “offenkundig” (evident)!

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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 8:18 pm)

Hi Folks,

I will give a quick report on the 'progress' of my friend.

He does admit that it seems impossible to hide evidence of 900,000 bodies being buried, dug up and then burned.
He was speechless at what Yitzhak Arad, then director of Yad Vashem, said. But, he still can't seem to make the complete break. I feel he, deep down, knows it is a bunch of crap, but simply has trouble with that. After all, that would imply we live in a thoroughly corrupt society. You would not be able to trust a damn thing we see in the newspapers, from Washington, TV, etc.

Also, he suffers from what most people suffer from. Namely, that so many people would lie about such an event seems more unlikely than scientific impossibilities.

Anyway, I am grateful for the replies and I am now carefully reading about Treblinka in Dissecting the Holocaust.
I will also read The Zundel Trial stuff about Treblinka; I assume Browning discusses it.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 9:20 pm)

steve wrote:I feel he, deep down, knows it is a bunch of crap, but simply has trouble with that. After all, that would imply we live in a thoroughly corrupt society. You would not be able to trust a damn thing we see in the newspapers, from Washington, TV, etc.


Have you ever heard of Friedrich P. Berg? He is one of the greatest, and he can think. He says, look, if you're telling people the Hoaxoco$t is a lie, you're telling them America is wrong. I say: damn well right America is wrong. Has been for 150 years at least. I'm one of the few persons that will come right and say it, loud and clear.

Good luck with your friend.

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Homage to Catalin Haldan

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 11:07 pm)

Thanks Hotzenplotz,

I knew there would be weirdness if you translated that. Gymnastic games where the loser died. Can you believe that? What laughable lies. These people should move to Hollywood and become scriptwriters. Oh yeah. They already have.

Roj the butcher was probably Samuel Rajzsmann. What an obvious liar. He testified before the US House of Representatives in 1946 and Hilberg uses his testimony in his book. But I'll make this prediction: were you to get his exact unedited words, it would get even weirder.

Meanwhile there's this Josef Hirtreiter. Can you imagine? Just some soldier, no super excellent verbal skills to debate lies. Maybe he said "that's not true" or maybe he knew he had family in the East that could be harmed. This guy with these mountains of ridiculous lies put on him, and he just lives out his life in a prison until he died in 1976 or so.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 05, 2005 11:46 pm)

steve:

If your friend is having a hard time dealing with the fact that the US government lies, then ask him:

Were they correct in their lies about the Tonkin Gulf incident?

Were they correct in their lies about the US 'winning' in Vietnam?

Were they correct in their lies about the Iraqi connection to 'Al Qaida'?

Were they correct in their lies about Iraqi WMD?

You're damn right the US government lies, and now that we're an extension of the Zionist entity they're be lying more & more.

from:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=572
".......Saddam Hussein's alleged WMDs is a mere repetition of the story (not history) of Adolf Hitler's WMDs ("execution gas chambers" and "execution gas vans").
The lie is the same and the liars are the same."

- French Professor, Dr. Robert Faurisson

Postwar revisionism on Iraq bears an eerie resemblance to the misgivings expressed in the headlines of the world's newspapers as the "liberation" of Kosovo was accomplished: "Cook accused of misleading public on Kosovo massacres," [London Times]; "Where Are Kosovo's Killing Fields?" asked Stratfor, the online foreign policy analysts; "Despite Tales, the War in Kosovo Was Savage, but Wasn't Genocide," averred the Wall Street Journal; "Serb killings exaggerated by the West," said the London Guardian [8/18/00].

Instead of the 100,000, 50,000, or 10,000 victims of Serbian "genocide" we were led to believe we would find in "liberated" Kosovo, at one time or another, , the total number of bodies exhumed was never more than a few thousand, including both Albanians and Serbs. As the British writer John Laughland pointed out at the time:

"Even if one assumes that all these people are Albanians murdered for ethnic reasons by Serbs, this is 1/5 of the number alleged by the Foreign Office in June; 1/50 of the number alleged by William Cohen in May; and 1/250 of the number suggested by the State Department in April."

More recently, Laughland asked "Is Blair trying to sex up Saddam's atrocities, too?" To those of us who have been watching the pattern play itself out since the last "liberation" – when Antiwar.com began covering the news on a daily basis – Iraq is the Deja-vu War. Where are the "weapons of mass destruction" that Saddam was supposed to be cleverly hiding? The same place as all those missing Kosovar corpses, the nonexistent evidence of mass murders that never happened. Lies, lies, and more lies – it's what our government does best, no matter the party in power.

The neocons; they're the one constant factor in these two cases of foreign policy blowback, the catalytic element that set off the chain reaction of events leading up to this moment. They wanted war in Kosovo, and they got it. They wanted the conquest of Iraq, and they got that, too. Now the consequences of both reckless adventures are simultaneously wreaked upon us....

Who are the journalists and editors?
What are their affiliations?
Who heads the media outlets and calls the shots?
Who has the power to have people fired from their jobs if something is written or said that is not liked?
Who profits?
Who gains political power and preferrential treatment from the lies?
Who achieves ethnic cohesion by publishing lies?
Who is engaging in genocide against a semitic people and participating in ethnic cleansing?
Who created and promoted the Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction lies?

And oh yes, who lied/lies about gas chambers and extermination?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 2:49 am)

I have a picture of a baby with his head smashed off, but I can assure you it was not the Germans that did it. All lefties turn your heads now and pretend that you just didn't see, like you have been conditioned too!

maybe Photo forger Weisenthal can put it on his 'Museum of tolerance' website, there is no airbrushing required.

Image

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 3:04 am)

The problem is the stories keep changing. For 50 years I was told 4,000,000 was Auschwitz figure, 3,000,000 at Treblinka, 2,000,000 at Mauthausen and so forth.


This is correct Mr Twain, you have revisionists to thank for that! I remember when I first looked at the revisionist findings and could not believe I was even studying the same subject as the conventional version I had known. I had never ever heard of 'Chicken wire things', I never even knew HCN had to be warmed up, I never knew the bodies were all buried then dug up again. As for the number juggling, well I still find it hard to keep track. Things were much more simpler in those days, up onto the roof, empty a can through a hole onto the floor, put everyone in the ovens, next load. Nowadays the new methods are far more complex.

I find it resembles watching the tide go out, you know how one minute your stood on the shore and the waves are lapping at your feet, then you turn around and look again after some minutes and the waves have receded three feet back.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 9:40 am)

steve:

Not Treblinka, but ask you friend why the Wiesenthalers resort to photo tampering.
Image
vs.
Image

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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